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  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Pineapple View Post
    a couple questions, this thread seems more of a hunter 101, rather than a theory-crafting thread but i'll post anyways:
    Yes indeed this isn't a hardcore theory crafting thread but there is a lot of it that this thread is based on

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Pineapple View Post
    current stat weights have crit AND haste at more than 50% of agi's value, this means that with the new gems (soft stats are double that of agi) we should be gemming pure crit as much as possible correct? (and using reforge for hit/exp caps)(my current sims have agi at 4.1 and hit/ex at 2.6 and crit at 2.16, haste at 2.13~*, and mastery at 1.6) [* the sim does not account for haste plateau log scaling though i'm not currently close to any plateaus] this also means (and according to every other guide i've checked) that mastery is much worse than haste currently, though i agree that haste is possibly devalued until you can reach a plateau which won't happen until heroic gear most likely
    I'm not seeing this, femaledwarf is as usual giving inflated weights for haste due to me nearing a plateau however crit is almost 4 times lower in priority compared to agility for me (agility worth 3.193 and crit at 0.794)

    So no, i doubt gemming pure crit would ever be the way to go, blizzard have made it clear from cataclysm onwards that primary stats are always going to more desirable than secondary ones.

    I'm not sure what kind of gear you have to get this kind of result, currently I'm at ilevel 364 pretty much best possible gear before rep rewards, lucky drops from world bosses and BMAH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Pineapple View Post
    a more appropriate stat prio would be wep>agi>hit/exp to cap> crit>=haste to cap>mastery>haste
    Isn't that what's in the guide already ? Although the part about weapon might be prudent to add, it might not be immediately obvious to a new hunter that the weapon is extremely important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Pineapple View Post
    with the new CD system and rolling dot system for LnL/ExS it is possible to get 4 ExS in a row (ExS, LnL proc during GCD, ExS*, ExS*, ExS) i know that using 3 in a row works with the dot roll, but does the fourth one work too? (for those of you not aware, LnL now resets both cd's - GCD and ICD - for ExS. the old system (pre-pandas) did not previously reset the 6 sec ICD so this was never an issue)
    ill try testing this today once my server queue lets me in. Gut feeling tells me that it should be ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Pineapple View Post
    Stampede is much higher priority than you have it listed and MoC is slightly lower. both should be just after ExS and ahead of glaive toss, and should be used with as much Agi as possible (procs or otherwise), stampede also scales with other stats (lust, trinkets, RF, zerk, etc), while MoC does not (agi/ap only). as far as i can see most fights have a burst phase which is when stampede should be used and in most cases would not come into effect on this prio list.
    I wasn't aware stampede was affected by haste, since our normal pets aren't affected by RF =S. I also disenchanted my windswept pages last night like an idiot so i can't test with proc -_-.

    After my testing with stampede in the other thread i do agree it should be a bit higher on priority list, HOWEVER I feel like it should be saved to be used in conjunction with periods of large AP/crit/possibly haste boosts as it is a 5 minute cooldown which is why i put it where it is on the current priority.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Pineapple View Post
    using DB on cd is crucial, but amzing with haste buffs (RF, lust, zerk etc) the beast gives you 5 focus every time it hits and luckily it scales with haste! between increased focus regen (from haste), SrS procs, and DB procs you can go for a long time without having to CS: less CS's = way more dps, and i often pop it ahead of it's spot in the priority list at the start of a fight so that i can recover focus better after MoC which is a huge focus dump. it's also great to use (save for a few seconds, if necessary) before moving to pool focus so that you can fire more shots while moving without having to switch to Fox.
    Agreed, I haven't done much dabbling with DB as I've pretty much stuck with toth for hc running since release. You also have to remember that CoS refreshes our SrS which means overall you will lose DPS if you have to manually refresh it and have to delay ES/BA to do so.

    DB after MoC seems like a good idea since the focus return is higher and will help recovery after dumping 60 focus, this is again due to my lack of experience with it from not using it :P.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Pineapple View Post
    speaking of which: for a moving rotation, it is possible to run out of shots/focus if you don't plan ahead. you can use various utility shots (concussive shot, etc) that cost no focus and do a small amount of dps if you are running longer than expected. if you will be running longer than the amount of focus you will need to continously shoot, it is worth it to switch to fox however. although, if you are a good raider, you should be aware of when you will have to move and should be pooling focus anyways, between deterrence and various other movement abilities, you should never actually run into this problem, but it is worth mentioning in the guide for people new to the spec who aren't 100% comfortable with the rotation with their eyes closed.
    Good point, this will apply to everyone this early in the expansion really.

    Thanks for pointing out some great things, people like you are what makes this guide useful for everyone.

  2. #482
    Field Marshal Bloodwisp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post

    As for the survivability tier at level 45: Spirit Bond is superior for soloplay. Otherwise raiding and dungeons Aspect of the Iron Hawk will be preferred by healers.
    What about our new self-healing for soloing (Exhilaration, 30% selfheal, 100% pet heal)? I think it would be better since you can get the heal exactly when you need it and you will keep your pet alive longer.

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodwisp View Post
    What about our new self-healing for soloing (Exhilaration, 30% selfheal, 100% pet heal)? I think it would be better since you can get the heal exactly when you need it and you will keep your pet alive longer.
    over 2 minutes spirit bond will heal 120% of your pet's hp and also your own.

    soloing pve content usually doesn't demand any burst healing.

  4. #484
    High Overlord Donkeywing's Avatar
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    I would consider fervor alot better. MoC reduced cd is pretty much meaningless unless your playing sv on spirit kings maybe

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by Donkeywing View Post
    I would consider fervor alot better. MoC reduced cd is pretty much meaningless unless your playing sv on spirit kings maybe
    fervor isn't in the same tier, not sure what you're trying to say.

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    I wasn't aware stampede was affected by haste, since our normal pets aren't affected by RF =S. I also disenchanted my windswept pages last night like an idiot so i can't test with proc -_-.
    Technically this is incorrect. Since Rapid Fire increases focus regeneration this directly increases pet energy regeneration which means that the stampede herd will have less time to wait between bites/claw/smack for the pets.

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by Namarus View Post
    Technically this is incorrect. Since Rapid Fire increases focus regeneration this directly increases pet energy regeneration which means that the stampede herd will have less time to wait between bites/claw/smack for the pets.
    it's such a small bonus though, over the course of 20 seconds, will it even amount to another claw/smack/bite?

  8. #488
    What is the Haste Cap in %? Is it worth attempting to reach it in ilvl average of 470?

    Also would you say MoC is better then LR when it comes to dps in general heroics and raids? If so, how much would you say the increase is by?


    I would also really appreciate to have some 'rough' rotation ideas for when it comes to aoe and single target, so I can compare mine to it and see where I'm going wrong (doing 30-40k single target dps in 5-man heroics *no food/flask/elixirs/pots buffs, just normal group buffs* in 463 average ilvl gear).

    Also that was without the blastington's scope, I previously had the crit chance scope. I've just got the blastington's and attached to my bow, however, I have not tried using it yet! Would this give me a big dps boost?


    Very sorry for my nooby questions, but I'm trying to improve and will greatly appreciate your time in reading and hopefully answering these for me

  9. #489
    Quote Originally Posted by Hound02 View Post
    What is the Haste Cap in %? Is it worth attempting to reach it in ilvl average of 470?
    20% on your character sheet is what you want, however it won't really be feasible to reach until next tier or maybe in heroic gear now.

    There's also a small breakpoint if you choose dire beast, i think it's somewhere around 3700 haste rating where dire beast will gain another attack which means 5 more focus and a little extra damage.

    However toth is better in aoe situations and also frees up your rotation a lot more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hound02 View Post
    Also would you say MoC is better then LR when it comes to dps in general heroics and raids? If so, how much would you say the increase is by?
    Since the rabid nerf, there's no situation I can think of where lynx rush would be better than MoC unless you need to burn something down in under 30 seconds but it lives for more than 4 seconds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hound02 View Post
    I would also really appreciate to have some 'rough' rotation ideas for when it comes to aoe and single target, so I can compare mine to it and see where I'm going wrong (doing 30-40k single target dps in 5-man heroics *no food/flask/elixirs/pots buffs, just normal group buffs* in 463 average ilvl gear).
    Again, survival is a priority and even if you "perfect" your opening it really doesn't matter as much for surv compared to other classes and specs.

    There's nothing really I can tell you any differently than what I've already written in the guide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hound02 View Post
    Also that was without the blastington's scope, I previously had the crit chance scope. I've just got the blastington's and attached to my bow, however, I have not tried using it yet! Would this give me a big dps boost?
    Blastington scope is most definitely better. You will notice your dps go up but it won't magically fix it from 40k to around 50k which is where you should be at.

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    it's such a small bonus though, over the course of 20 seconds, will it even amount to another claw/smack/bite?
    Considering that it gives my hunter a 40% passive focus regeneration and pets regenerate at 125%, the rate that a hunter does focus.

    Using my own character base focus regen of 4.2 = pet focus regen of 5.25 per sec.

    With Rapid Fire that increases to 5.88 hunter regen = pet focus regen of 7.35 per sec.

    Over the course of 20s non RF = 105 focus regenerated, while with RF = 147 focus. This is clearly more than enough to get another Basic Attack in with a difference of 42 focus. This potentially could give you increased wild hunt damage over the course of a stampede.
    Last edited by Namarus; 2012-10-22 at 06:08 AM.

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by Namarus View Post
    Considering that it gives my hunter a 40% passive focus regeneration and pets regenerate at 125%, the rate that a hunter does focus.

    Using my own character base focus regen of 4.2 = pet focus regen of 5.25 per sec.

    With Rapid Fire that increases to 5.88 hunter regen = pet focus regen of 7.35 per sec.

    Over the course of 20s non RF = 105 focus regenerated, while with RF = 147 focus. This is clearly more than enough to get another Basic Attack in with a difference of 42 focus. This potentially could give you increased wild hunt damage over the course of a stampede.
    Yes, the pets base focus reg is 25% higher than the hunters ( 5 vs 4)
    But its not dependant on it. Pet gets your meleehadte but not rangedhaste.
    As a far as i know, pet does not gain attackspeed from RF/FF because its rangedhaste
    (Have to check it first, not 100% sure)

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTrueM4gg0t View Post
    Yes, the pets base focus reg is 25% higher than the hunters ( 5 vs 4)
    But its not dependant on it. Pet gets your meleehadte but not rangedhaste.
    As a far as i know, pet does not gain attackspeed from RF/FF because its rangedhaste
    (Have to check it first, not 100% sure)
    Hunter pets inherit "melee haste" and not "ranged haste" this is true, however, they do inherit "haste" which applies to both.

    Testing on the EJ forums proves that hunter passive focus regeneration increases pet passive focus regeneration.
    http://www.wowhuntershall.com/2012/0...2/#BM%20Opener

    Nooska added, “Having just completed a couple of tests on the “internal test bosses” where I let the pet attack the boss till focus was the limiting factor of basic attacks, then observing it for a while, then using RF, I feel confident that RF does affect pet focus regen (despite being ranged haste). Specifically, I observed mostly 5, sometimes 4 seconds between basic attacks (claw in this case) after letting my pet drain itself of focus. Popping RF increased the frequency to just over 3 seconds on average while RF was up. At no time did I myself attack the boss, so GftT was not a factor.”

  13. #493
    well im inclined to believe that is true but sadly the world doesn't revolve around someone's "feelings".

    I'll get on to do some testing now.

  14. #494
    Regarding haste plateaus, one of the threads on EJ breaks down haste values for extra dire beast attacks and finds an attainable plateau at 9.1% haste before raid buffs. It seems to hold up in my testing, and gives me an extra ~10k (factoring in crits) every 30s, for a direct dps gain of around 333, plus 0.16 focus per second (5 focus every 30s). That's only taking into account the effect of haste on your passive focus regen, auto-shots, cobra shot time, and mobility. I tried it in raid yesterday and like the results well enough that I'll be keeping it. That plateau is attainable in fairly good gear, but nothing heroic yet - 481 ilevel.

    Also, YMMV, but I prefer a higher haste value just so I don't have to stand in one place quite as long. Traditional haste plateaus only take into account dot ticks and tight rotational requirements (1.66s, 1.5s, 1.33s cast times on focus shots, etc.), but I find that in raid encounters I'm rarely sitting and executing a perfect rotation. I'm moving out of fire, trying to burst down adds, etc, and even a 0.1s difference that a strict rotational view doesn't appreciate feels more playable to me.

    (Oddly, I also love MM, and specifically the hardcast Aimed rotation for it. I don't use it currently, but the most fun I've had playing my hunter since Wrath was when haste-stacking and hardcasting aimed shot as focus dump was a viable hunter option. Just felt like what a hunter was supposed to be.)

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-31 at 11:25 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    Since the rabid nerf, there's no situation I can think of where lynx rush would be better than MoC unless you need to burn something down in under 30 seconds but it lives for more than 4 seconds.
    That's an interesting point, given that there are fights that feature _exactly_ this requirement. Elegon, in particular, comes to mind. Unfortunately, LR would still be usable only on one sphere per phase - but if you're really hurting to get that 3rd or 4th sphere down and it's keeping you from progressing, maybe LR could be a consideration. I suspect you'd get more benefit out of learning the timing of the fight so you can game focus and procs properly though.

  15. #495
    unlikely i will be renewing my sub (ends this month). So if anyone wants to take over this thread I give full permission and with a help of a mod to pass editing rights on.

  16. #496
    Hey, just wanted to know how you guys handle spirit kings, ie a 2 mob fight.
    Sv AE eith multi is very strong, and a clear dps increase for 3+ mobs, but 2?
    How do you handle it?
    a) use singletarget rota, but keep SrS on second (refresh with cobra/multi)
    b) dump with multi instead of arcane
    c) drive multitarget rota

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTrueM4gg0t View Post
    Hey, just wanted to know how you guys handle spirit kings, ie a 2 mob fight.
    Sv AE eith multi is very strong, and a clear dps increase for 3+ mobs, but 2?
    How do you handle it?
    a) use singletarget rota, but keep SrS on second (refresh with cobra/multi)
    b) dump with multi instead of arcane
    c) drive multitarget rota
    since when is spirit kings a multi mob fight? (at once anyway)

  18. #498
    I can help with the encounter write-up if you're still interested in adding a section about it. Also, I'm curious where you got the shot priority (or is that supposed to be the suggested opener?).

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-06 at 10:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTrueM4gg0t View Post
    Hey, just wanted to know how you guys handle spirit kings, ie a 2 mob fight.
    Sv AE eith multi is very strong, and a clear dps increase for 3+ mobs, but 2?
    How do you handle it?
    a) use singletarget rota, but keep SrS on second (refresh with cobra/multi)
    b) dump with multi instead of arcane
    c) drive multitarget rota
    With two targets, you would use the standard priority but dump with MS over AS, similar to Stone Guard. In the heroic version of the encounter, you get a second boss that activates at 30%, in regards to the question by the other poster.

  19. #499
    I would love to see an encouter guide for all MSV, HOF and TOES content. Just bouncing back ideas and seeing how different people approach a fight would be an asset to the hunter community. I dont see much in the way of guides in these hunter forums, which is a shame..

  20. #500
    Does anyone have the numbers for why exactly mastery > haste for survival and at what gear levels/caps?

    Going to simcraft some stuff later but would help to have some research to go off of.

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