8/2/31

[Myrrar]

Maybe he got Furor to have the energy to use Maim on the Sons of Flame on Ragnaros?

It's not that needed for Bash because you can just cast Enrage which has the same 1 min cd as Bash (although he might not realize this).

This is exactly what I'm thinking. Has to be for a mechanic.

[Cactrot]

Does anyone know what % of druid mana regen is from replenish, revitilize, and innervate (rri)?

Some pretty basic napkin math says regen from furor would be .15 * rri. Regen from MG is (1/.91 [new mana effectiveness] - 1) = .098
is rri *.09 > 0.98
Is rri > 66% of your mana regen? If not, then the most basic (probably flawed cause I'm workin on other stuff) napkin math says it's worse.

[Skelly]

Does anyone know what % of druid mana regen is from replenish, revitilize, and innervate (rri)?

Some pretty basic napkin math says regen from furor would be .15 * rri. Regen from MG is (1/.91 [new mana effectiveness] - 1) = .098
is rri *.09 > 0.98
Is rri > 66% of your mana regen? If not, then the most basic (probably flawed cause I'm workin on other stuff) napkin math says it's worse.

Yeah seems about right. Is there a way on WoL to see how much of mana you regenerated from spirit?

[Cactrot]

Yeah seems about right. Is there a way on WoL to see how much of mana you regenerated from spirit?

I will note that my napkin math ignores mana gained from Hymn and such. I think really it should be is non-spirit based regen > 66% of non spirit + spirit (or is it > ~twice spirit based regen)

[Milky]

Pretty much the spec i've been using ever since living seed is no longer a prerequisite to efflorescence. Genesis then became reachable without sacrificing any core talents in the resto tree, and is a must have.

As far as the debate of Furor vs Moonglow goes, I battle since cata launch to get people to understand that Furor is better than moonglow in 99% of cases because 3/3 furor not only increases your manapool by 15% (thus letting you cast 15% more spells with a full manabar), but also increases the mana regen of revitalize, replenishement, and innervate by 15%.

Since those 3 regen sources add up to being the crushing majority of a resto druid's mana regen, it almost comes down to arguing that 15%>9%. Speaks for itself.

In any case, its good to see that resto druids in the top guilds in the world have also done the maths.

Then please, calculate how much mana that is for you from a parse, and then calculate how many spells you actually cast and find out how much 9% of that is. For me, moonglow >>> furor.

[Dendrek]

If a fight has A LOT of downtime, it's possible for Furor to surpass Moonglow. But if the fight has a lot of downtime, then you shouldn't be stressing about mana anyways, so neither talent really makes a difference. If a fight requires you to cast often, Moonglow beats Furor by a wide margin (as in it provides many times more regen than Furor can).

On fights where mana regen matters, Furor doesn't come close to Moonglow.

[BoomChickn]

Okay... Time for my attempts at math to clarify moonglow vs furor.

Say you have 110k mana without furor.

This gives 126500 mana with furor.

Under perfect conditions (100% replenishment uptime, revitalize every 12 seconds, innervate every cd)

Without furor, over a 10 minute fight, innervating 1 minute in.
600 seconds of replenishment, so 60% of your mana, which is 66000 mana over the course of the fight from replenishment
50 revitalize procs, 110k mana
3-4 innervates (9 mins, 6 mins, 3 mins, end fight), 60-80% mana. 66k-88k mana.
4x hymn of hope, 35.6% mana, 39160 mana.

Total regeneration: 264k mana. 303160 with hymns (mana tide is not affected)

Increase this by 15% for furor, you get 303600 mana from regen (348634 with hymns). Subtract the two for 39.6k extra mana from regeneration (45474 mana with hymns). Plus the initial bonus of 16500 mana, furor is worth 56100 (61974 with hymns...) mana over the course of a 10 minute fight under perfect conditions with 4 innervates.

Moonglow will be harder to simulate though, due to the nature of raid fights. So I will just use a value that leaves you completely mana-even with normal regeneration.

Using my main's mp5 as an example.

2200 mp5. 10 minute period, 1 innervate, both replenishment and revitalize.
600 seconds.
264k mana from normal regen, 50 revitalize procs for 110k mana. 60% mana from replenishment, making 66000 mana. And 88k from the innervate.

Alternate calculations including 1 resto shaman, using mana tide on cooldown. 200% boosts every 3 mins for 8 seconds gives about 16 extra seconds of regen per totem. 4 totems dropped, 64 seconds of extra regen, or 28160 mana. And now two priests for hymns. 2 per fight per priest. Each hymn is about 8.9% mana. So 35.6% extra mana from hymns. So 39160 extra mana from hymns under perfect conditions.

Add these together... 528000 (595320 mana with mana tides and hymns) mana regenerated over 10 minutes. Divide this by time... 880 (992.2 w/mana tide and hymns) mana used per second to remain completely even without external cooldowns.

This gives 47520 mana saved over the period. External cooldowns like mana tide and hymn of hope will boost it to 53579, along with simple mana-deficit casting required to keep the raid alive. Burning the whole mana pool over a fight adds 11k to it, boosting it over furor. Add in mana tide for the 200% boost in passive mana regen for 8(?) seconds every 3 minutes for every resto shammy, and hymn of hope which adds about 15% mana (I think), it edges out over furor.

In a perfect situation, moonglow will give 64579 mana over a 10 minute fight.

Now remember this is a reduction, so the talent allows for roughly 10% more casts. Making it slightly more effective than math shows. It increases healing per mana by about 10% due to the nature of reduction effects (50% mana reduction gives 100% extra healing per mana).

Using this new mana is also saved by the lower mana costs, granting 5812 extra mana, then 523, then 47. After that it is insignificant.

So in their absolute PERFECT conditions, furor grants 61974 mana, moonglow grants 64579 mana. The mana from moonglow is also used on spells that have their mana costs reduced, further increasing the bonus. Taking this in to account it gives 70961 mana.

TL;DR, moonglow beats furor.

Easiest way to solve stuff...just map out a real-world situation and math it out from there.Granted it takes a while, but hey, its easier for me. I enjoy doing this kind of stuff.

[Deleted]

on my druid, mostly 359 but not all, i dont have Moonglow and dont have any use for it, get as much mana as poss and have volcanic pots + power torrent proc, and your innervate will give you a hell of alot of mana back

[Milky]

Thank you so very, very much BoomChickn!

[zearrow]

on my druid, mostly 359 but not all, i dont have Moonglow and dont have any use for it, get as much mana as poss and have volcanic pots + power torrent proc, and your innervate will give you a hell of alot of mana back

timing your invervate with power torrent is correct but using a volcanic pot to boost your innervate is wrong, i cant quote the source but i remember there being a whole article about not doing that
edit: unless that has changed somehow

[Dendrek]

It hasn't changed. Volcanic Pots + Innervate are worth less mana than a normal mana pot.

[giowatcher]

If you need to nitpick at talents that much...
Then you are doing something wrong.

[Tapzer]

Alyzrazor doesnt count, if you attack her when shes grounded you get mana back.. sooooo....

[BoomChickn]

If you need to nitpick at talents that much...
Then you are doing something wrong.

If you are talking about me, when people are wondering what talent is best, only real way to find out is to do the math on it as if you were in a raid setting. Besides, once people bring it up, I often want to know which one is really better. Not just by what people say.

That said, there are gimmicks that make furor better (Alysrazor) but in most situations moonglow would win out.

[Dendrek]

Any situation where Furor is better is almost certainly a situation where the regen isn't needed (i.e. there's a lot of downtime in the fight - leaving plenty of time to regen).

[Skelly]

Wall of math

These estimates are pretty conservative for moonglow, since I'm above 3K mp5 in battle with Tsunami deck, 4T11 and Blessing of Might.