Page 1 of 3
1
2
3
LastLast
  1. #1

    Updated Parry/Dodge ratio graph

    I had been waiting to see if Blizzard would follow through with their idea about having bosses in new tiers have increased chance to hit or be dodged, parried, or blocked. Buuuut..... they haven't! So here is an extended graph that should help us gear and reforge until the next tier comes out.



    Uploaded with ImageShack.us

    You'll notice a strange discontinuity in the yellow and black circles. That's where you reach passive unhittability, even when shield block is down. We can interpret this as follows: When you are still hittable, the damage reduction given by Hold the Line is, relatively, not as important as keeping your dodge and parry balanced and covering the combat table. But once you never take an unmitigated hit, then increasing parry and dodge are only pushing blocks off the combat table as opposed to full hits. At this point, Hold the Line becomes more prominent and we should favor parry more heavily.


    While I was doing this, I examined the relative damage reduction given by parry, dodge, mastery and armor. I found something interesting, though I suppose not unexpected. We have known for a while that when we are hittable, mastery is our best statistic. It covers the combat table faster than any other stat. Furthermore, due to the increasing returns of the critical block mechanic and diminishing returns on parry and dodge, there is a breakpoint (which we passed in Tier 11) such that a point of mastery also reduces more damage (over a long period of time) than a point of parry or dodge would.

    However, once we are passively unhittable, parry and dodge become superior under the measure of long-run damage taken. When mastery is only increasing our critical block, it seems better to reforge it back into parry and dodge.

    But this is only if we are trying to maximize damage reduction at all other costs. When we become passively unhittable, then parry, dodge, and mastery all yield a fraction of the returns they currently do. This is due to steep diminishing returns on parry and dodge, and the fact that mastery would only increase critical blocks. When we reach passive unhittability, the best strategy may be to start gemming and enchanting for increased stamina as our damage reduction is, roughly speaking, about as good as it can get.

    Maybe I'll post some numbers to try to clarify what I'm trying to say. But for now, I need some lunch.

  2. #2
    MAN. Mest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Borås, Sweden
    Posts
    3,735
    Thanks a lot man, much appreciated!

    Now go back to your kiddo!

  3. #3
    Pretty useful info here, thanks for taking the time to do this! mad props
    My guild <Rollin Deep> - See one of these guys? Run. Else you will die.

  4. #4
    MAN. Mest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Borås, Sweden
    Posts
    3,735
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolmagorov View Post
    While I was doing this, I examined the relative damage reduction given by parry, dodge, mastery and armor. I found something interesting, though I suppose not unexpected. We have known for a while that when we are hittable, mastery is our best statistic. It covers the combat table faster than any other stat. Furthermore, due to the increasing returns of the critical block mechanic and diminishing returns on parry and dodge, there is a breakpoint (which we passed in Tier 11) such that a point of mastery also reduces more damage (over a long period of time) than a point of parry or dodge would.

    However, once we are passively unhittable, parry and dodge become superior under the measure of long-run damage taken. When mastery is only increasing our critical block, it seems better to reforge it back into parry and dodge.
    Regarding this, did you account for that when unhittable, dodge/parry practically only reduce 69% damage?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Iyona View Post
    Regarding this, did you account for that when unhittable, dodge/parry practically only reduce 69% damage?
    Yes: my calculation is a straightforward expected value of the percent of damage taken. Roughly, it goes like this

    PercentDamageTaken = 0*(MissChance + ParryChance + DodgeChance) + (% Damage taken under block, HtL down)*NormalBlockChance + (% Damage taken under critical block, HtL down)*CriticalBlockChance + ...

    There are terms for Hold the Line being active and inactive, and mitigation due to armor and Defensive Stance are taken into account. I'm also assuming the 1% block meta is in use. The calculation is repeated assuming that Shield Block is in use, and the two resulting values are averaged with weights 2/3 and 1/3 respectively. I then compare this final answer under different dodge/parry/mastery/armor ratings to see which minimize the answer. There's also a routine that will increment each rating in turn and compare the ratios of the PercentDamageTaken, giving statweights for your current gear.

    This method naturally takes into account the differences in dodge and parry when hittable/unhittable without having to attack it directly.

    I put a version of this on a SAGE server the university hosts. If the administrators don't mind, I'll publish it and people can log on play around with it directly.

  6. #6
    Can I be a pain and ask for a version with lines rather than symbols


    This drop in the usefulness of mastery is interesting. I'm assuming we're working on the assumption that mastery only gives the same rate of crit block after 102.4% and that bonus block doesn't get converted (unless that block came from Shield Block). Now previously the priority of stats was:

    Mastery > Stam > Avoid
    or
    Mastery > Avoid > Stam

    So your calculations put mastery below avoid, giving us:

    Stam > Avoid > Mastery
    or
    Avoid > Mastery > Stam


    It's interesting though, because I always thought that being "un-blockable" would be the next target where everything is crit blocks. But I guess if the block/avoid stats become sufficiently poor it is time for stam, which will address magic damage too. I'm already leaning to prefer Stam over Avoid because of the current DR on my gear.


    Also: STICKIE!!!
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    you're likely wrong, and we don't care anyway.
    Source

  7. #7
    MAN. Mest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Borås, Sweden
    Posts
    3,735
    What swing timer did you assume, btw?

  8. #8
    Pandaren Monk
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Södermalm
    Posts
    1,920
    *Bows down*

    Ty

  9. #9
    Herald of the Titans Dannyl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    2,524
    Very nice work

    Was really looking forward for this graph, although the results weren't all that surprised. What would have been surprised was if mastery continued to retain its seat at the top of other stats, even beyond reaching 102.4%. Whether it is is avoidance or stamina after that point, think we will be having a lot of fun debates about that. Personally I might argue that it'd be more beneficial to simply begin to increase your stamina after that point. Avoidance might still increase our damage reduction further but there is a lot of damage that is not reducible through anything expect CDs. In that sense, I see the combination of high health and unhittable a very potent combination.

    Armory | What we do in life, it echoes in eternity.
    Blog | Hogi's Blogspot.

  10. #10
    Is there some sort of calculator available we can plugin our own numbers into instead of eyeballing it with a graph? Would be nice to have what you have, or something more user friendly if its complicated.

  11. #11
    Field Marshal
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    77
    This parry/dodge ratio. is it the ratio of the ratings or the ratio of the percentages?

  12. #12
    MAN. Mest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Borås, Sweden
    Posts
    3,735
    Quote Originally Posted by Bjoepie View Post
    This parry/dodge ratio. is it the ratio of the ratings or the ratio of the percentages?
    The ratings. Your buffed values.

  13. #13
    Mechagnome Maximus4004's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Manhattan, KS
    Posts
    662
    Awesome work Kol

    At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

  14. #14

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Iyona View Post
    What swing timer did you assume, btw?
    I assumed 5 attack ins 10 seconds, corresponding to a swing timer of 1.8 or so. Some, like Beth'tilac and Baleroc, will be faster or slower, but 5 attacks seemed like a good middle ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ssateneth
    Is there some sort of calculator available we can plugin our own numbers into instead of eyeballing it with a graph? Would be nice to have what you have, or something more user friendly if its complicated.
    I would love to be able to make something like that. I'm a mathematician and not a programmer, so I don't know of any fancy way to make this accessible to people. If someone could point me in the right direction then maybe I could get started.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mammoth
    This drop in the usefulness of mastery is interesting. I'm assuming we're working on the assumption that mastery only gives the same rate of crit block after 102.4% and that bonus block doesn't get converted (unless that block came from Shield Block). Now previously the priority of stats was:
    Those are exactly the conditions I'm assuming.

  16. #16
    Herald of the Titans Dannyl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    2,524
    Quote Originally Posted by Mammoth View Post
    This drop in the usefulness of mastery is interesting. I'm assuming we're working on the assumption that mastery only gives the same rate of crit block after 102.4% and that bonus block doesn't get converted (unless that block came from Shield Block). Now previously the priority of stats was:
    Don't think it's an unreasonable assumption, not imo at least. If I am completely honestly, I've started to doubt it very much that the excess block to crit block conversion has to do with anything other than shield block. The only place where it shows up is in the tooltip for shield block. With that in mind, think it's actually a bit of a stretch to assume that this is how our block would generally behave.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolmagorov View Post
    When we become passively unhittable, then parry, dodge, and mastery all yield a fraction of the returns they currently do.
    Another thread started me thinking, where does this leave the T12 4pc bonus? If avoidance only returns a very small benefits, once we are passively unhittable, might it be more beneficial to go with offset pieces after the first two? Looking at the warrior tier pieces, there are two with mastery/avoidance combination, one with avoidance/avoidance, and the help and shoulders both have threat stats along side either mastery or avoidance. I'm thinking of maybe building a set for unhittable, utilizing pants and gloves and going offset for the rest.

    Checking my list, I can find good off-pieces for all three of the other slots, with mastery/avoidance on them.

    Armory | What we do in life, it echoes in eternity.
    Blog | Hogi's Blogspot.

  17. #17
    I would love to be able to make something like that. I'm a mathematician and not a programmer, so I don't know of any fancy way to make this accessible to people. If someone could point me in the right direction then maybe I could get started.
    If you can give me a formula, I can produce something like that.

    Edit - The formulas in my personal spreadsheet seem consistent with your findings. I will go forth with this!
    Last edited by MasterDinadan; 2011-07-19 at 05:37 PM.

  18. #18
    Is there a layman/n00b breakdown of how to read &/or use this graph for those who are less mathematically inclined? My dodge/parry ratio is out of whack and it seems like this graph holds the answer to my questions once I'm able to decipher it.

    I know I might be inviting flame for admitting that I'm not sure how to read this but I'd appreciate the help!

    Thanks!
    Last edited by Culture_Jam; 2011-07-19 at 06:44 PM. Reason: Inadvertent emoticon

  19. #19
    Hi Culture_Jam,

    The idea behind the graph is this: We know that for damage reduction, mastery is our best stat. Dodge and parry are next, but parry is slightly better because of our Hold the Line talent. But that's only true up to a point, because eventually diminishing returns on parry will make it worse than dodge.

    So once you've reforged, gemmed and enchanted to get as much mastery as possible, the question is how we should balance out our dodge and parry ratings. Here's how to find the answer.

    1) Determine how much mastery your toon has, and find the color(s) that corresponds to it. For example, my character has about 2600 mastery, so I'm looking around the green and red area.
    2) Add your parry rating and your dodge rating to get your total avoidance rating. Find that number on the horizontal X axis. For me, that's 3800.
    3) Look above that point and see where your particular color is. Look over at the vertical Y axis and see what number is there. For me, it's about 1.18
    4) Now divide your parry rating by your dodge rating.
    _____a) If it is below the graph value, reforge dodge into parry.
    _____b) If it is above the graph value, reforge parry into dodge.
    Last edited by Kolmagorov; 2011-07-19 at 06:57 PM. Reason: Format

  20. #20
    Rock on! Thanks for your concise explanation, Kol and for the work done on this graph!!

    ---------- Post added 2011-07-19 at 09:15 PM ----------

    Quick follow up question - does this assume that we have our mastery food buff or any other buffs?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •