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  1. #1

    10 man vs 25 man difficulty in firelands

    Why does it seem like 10 man is so much easier to do then 25 man firelands. Is it that way till you head into hard modes? Or is it just me, because it's really kinda ridiculous.

  2. #2
    Well, it's harder to organize 24 other morons than 9. But in 25 you can bring a wider array of specs for more benefits and stuff.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Zues View Post
    Well, it's harder to organize 24 other morons than 9. But in 25 you can bring a wider array of specs for more benefits and stuff.
    Yes, yes you can, but the difficulty transition from 10 to 25 is still amazingly stupid, 10 man seems to be much more easier for every boss.

  4. #4
    If you're transitioning from 10's to 25's it is also entirely possible that the 15 new members aren't as good as the 10 original. This is often the case when a 10 man guild first starts running a 25 and recruiting friends, friends of friends, and *shudder* trade chat pugs.

    Or maybe blizz overcompensated since it seemed the majority of fights in t11 were much harder in 10's before the nerfs started rolling in.

  5. #5
    More space to move on and adjust? Easier to get people together?

    In all fairness 25 man is easier, just slightly. But it is also more socially engaging, therefor the popularity.
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  6. #6
    well I haven't done shannox in 10 man but beth is much easier in 10 man imo we did it in like 2 attempts our first night in there without a bloodlust even, rhyolith seemed a lot easier on 10 man simply because there's less people you depend on to turn him properly and baleroc seemed waaaaay easier on 10 man because of the attack speed slow while he has decimation blade up even if there are less healers to heal it up it just seemed easier to get healed up between hits, alysrazor I haven't downed yet on 25 so it definitely seems easier on 10 though having enough interrupts to lock each initiate down isn't always guaranteed in 10 man but dps on the birds is much more forgiving I can solo mine easily in 10 man but I still have a pretty large chunk of health left on mine in 25 man if I get no help before the tornado phase, majordomo seems a million times easier on 10 man but that's probably because we only took good dps in with us and didn't have some people doing like 15k dragging us down and as for rag we've gotten farther on 10 man but 25 man seems more managable simply because of the fact that you have more options of stuns etc. to slow down sons.

  7. #7
    10man mode you can't carry people therefore more pressure... 25man mode? you can carry a 10man mode
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Pappahealar View Post
    More space to move on and adjust? Easier to get people together?

    In all fairness 25 man is easier, just slightly. But it is also more socially engaging, therefor the popularity.
    No my guild has always been 25 man, But I've gone in on 10 man before and noticed the huge difference in difficulty and notice how much easier all the fights seem to be on 10 man, including alysrazor, beth, lord, major but not much of a difference for shannox. Those other 5 bosses it just seemed kinda crazy how much easier they were, 10 man seems to be much easier to do in firelands then 25.

    I also don't see much more popularity for 25 mans except for the higher end guilds? Most average guilds seem to be pushing 10 man, just because it's more easy.

    And I agree in T11 fights seemed to be harder on 10, but it seems as though it's switched around for firelands.
    Last edited by Unskilled; 2011-07-20 at 10:16 PM.

  9. #9
    The reason why 10 mans are actually easier this time around than 25 man is due to Blizzard forcing all 25 man guilds to test the 10 man version first on the PTR before doing the 25 man version.

    On the Beta during Tier 11 testing very few guilds pulled boss encounters on 10 man compared to 25 man therefore the tuning issues.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanadoz View Post
    The reason why 10 mans are actually easier this time around than 25 man is due to Blizzard forcing all 25 man guilds to test the 10 man version first on the PTR before doing the 25 man version.

    On the Beta during Tier 11 testing very few guilds pulled boss encounters on 10 man compared to 25 man therefore the tuning issues.
    That seems like a good reason, most people who seem to be saying that 10 man is harder actually don't do 25 man on firelands just 10 and seem to think that obviously working with 25 people might be more easy when it isnt. Anybody I know that actually has done firelands both on 10 and 25 has told me 10 is much easier, while the people I know who only do firelands on 10 man and don't do it on 25 blindly say 10 is harder because it seems to favor their side.

  11. #11
    I raid 25mans exclusively, but I have friends in other 10man guilds that tell me that the 10man heroic stuff (with the exception of Beth) is significantly easier than the 25man counterpart. Rag is not part of the discussion because only 1 guild in the world has killed it so far. But yes I do believe that in T12 10man is easier. The only reason it was slightly more difficult last tier (for a short while) was because of Blizzard's overtuning of the content to prevent people from just abandoning 25mans. That seems to have been rectified in T12, but a little too much. Can't be too sure, as i'm just going off of extensive discussion and some limited theorycrafting in vent with friends.

  12. #12
    It's always fun to get these type of arguments because people rarely consider the quality of players that make up the respective raids. If you have 10 good players then 10 man could be easy for you, and if you add 15 mediocre-bad players to these original 10 then it may seem like 25 mans are really hard. However, by nature 25 man raids provide more classes, more flexibility, and more forgiveness. So if you have 25 good people then you'd probably find 25 mans to be easier.

    You also tend to get more use of of gear drops in 25 mans so your overall item level will increase faster compared to 10 man. I know that "OMG U CAN GET LYKE ALL 3 SAME LOOTZ OFF 1 BOSS IN 25m" but seriously it's more likely that someone in your raid can use the drops in 25m, especially in the beginning.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Unskilled View Post
    No my guild has always been 25 man, But I've gone in on 10 man before and noticed the huge difference in difficulty and notice how much easier all the fights seem to be on 10 man, including alysrazor, beth, lord, major but not much of a difference for shannox. Those other 5 bosses it just seemed kinda crazy how much easier they were, 10 man seems to be much easier to do in firelands then 25.

    I also don't see much more popularity for 25 mans except for the higher end guilds? Most average guilds seem to be pushing 10 man, just because it's more easy.

    And I agree in T11 fights seemed to be harder on 10, but it seems as though it's switched around for firelands.
    Maybe because the people in the 10 man were better then the people you played with in 25 man? If you got 10 top notch player in 10 man it's gonna be alot easier then when you got 10 top notch in 25 man and carrying the other 15.

    edit: damn jooo Park! You beat me to it!

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Katellia View Post
    Maybe because the people in the 10 man were better then the people you played with in 25 man? If you got 10 top notch player in 10 man it's gonna be alot easier then when you got 10 top notch in 25 man and carrying the other 15.
    Our 10 man wasn't even close to top notch of our best players, we've had 2 10 mans of our 25 run at the same time both smashing through 10 man and finding it much more easy then 25, you can't really carry people on 25 so its bad to say that, because if you expect to carry some people on 25 man they will die and in the end cost the raid their kill, 25 isn't as forgiving as many people like to think.

    To use the excuse 25 man is more easy because you can just carry 15 people is kinda bull, because those 15 people can and will likely die if they're just being "carried" and therefor cost the kill for the raid. You have to have 25 good people just as you would have 10 good people for 10 man.

  15. #15
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    A fair way to gauge this, there is not. Hardmodes have barely begun for the majority and it actually seems pretty even so far.

    It's my belief that the 10mans were harder in Tier 11. Now they've been softened a bit, as they should be to compensate for the less forgiving format. Raid deaths and mistakes are more costly for that setup, it may seem easier coming from a 25man environment to a well oiled group of 10 people who are close and know what they're doing, but hit a wall and you REALLY hit a wall, there is less flexibility in your raid as you have a set amount of specs with you rather than just the majority of them to play around with as you see the encounter.

    Again 25man has forever had it's organization issues but 10man also has alot of problems only utilizing a set amount of the games already tentatively imbalanced class specs.

    There isn't a fair way to gauge because EVERY 10man will have a setup problem somewhere, and finding the ideal setup for the firelands with the people you have will be a mental problem I don't care to tackle.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Pappahealar View Post
    More space to move on and adjust? Easier to get people together?

    In all fairness 25 man is easier, just slightly. But it is also more socially engaging, therefor the popularity.
    Did you just use the words "popularity" and "25-man" in the same sentence? If anything, Cataclysm has brought about the near death of 25-man raiding on many servers, due to how you get equal gear for a fraction of the effort required.

    As someone who loves 25-man raiding for the amount of fun it brings compared to the lackluster 10-mans, this is a terrible development. The fact that they made Firelands 25-mans so much harder than 10-man is another death blow to 25-man raiding. It is almost as if Blizz want to kill off 25-man raiding before the end of Cataclysm, so they won't have to bother with providing 25-mans at all from next expansion on.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by bregtann View Post
    Did you just use the words "popularity" and "25-man" in the same sentence? If anything, Cataclysm has brought about the near death of 25-man raiding on many servers, due to how you get equal gear for a fraction of the effort required.

    As someone who loves 25-man raiding for the amount of fun it brings compared to the lackluster 10-mans, this is a terrible development. The fact that they made Firelands 25-mans so much harder than 10-man is another death blow to 25-man raiding. It is almost as if Blizz want to kill off 25-man raiding before the end of Cataclysm, so they won't have to bother with providing 25-mans at all from next expansion on.
    This is true, 25 man guilds are dying hardcore, and you only see alot of 25 man guilds when you look at the top guilds in the world, mostly because they've been 25 man guilds from the start and they're not going to ditch 15 people they've been raiding forever with.

    I enjoy 25 mans much more then 10 because of the experience but from what I've seen running both, it's almost saddening knowing that a kill on major on 25 that could take a whole night, can be 2-3 shotted on 10 man, it seems blizzard is wanting 25 mans to fade away.

  18. #18
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    Let me get this on the table: if you normally do 10 or 25, and try the other:

    Unless you get a completely new team, chances are 10man seems easier. Why? Because the 10man team will most likely be the 10 best players from the 25man team.

    Other than that: Rhyolith steering gave us a lot of trouble on 10man, seems a bit easier when I watch 25man videos, but at the moment we got it down, so maybe it was improved.
    Baleroc: not much difference I can imagine.
    Alysrazor: getting both ads correctly interupted is almost impossible, sometimes these mobs cast 2 Fieroblast in a row, and even our enhashaman just could not get those solo, and seeing how you have 4 ads instead of 2 on 25man (correct me if wrong), hp wise they will prolly be balanced, but getting more interupters on them seems easier.
    Beth'tilac, no clue, maybe a difference in spiderlings, but can't really say anything.
    Majordomo and Rag: Obviously spreading is easier on 10man, and having these big boulders chasing people seems also more chaotic. However, the amount of transition ads on Rag is the same in 10 and 25, so these are way more easy to handle in 25, seeing the increase of stuns 25 people have over 10.
    Shannox: amount of traps in 10 seems like a lot already, so I doubt there will be much more in 25, pretty equal I guess.

    And of course the normal stuff: 25 is harder to setup and manage than 10, but gives a tiny bit more loot and more buff coverage...

    Normal perspective btw, Rag not yet down due to people standing in shiny fire and healers not noticing the difference between hand of ragnaros and wrath of ragnaros, and our melee whining they get parried in p1, and walking out of range of healers =D Guess that last thing is less of a problem on 25man:P
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Szemere View Post
    Let me get this on the table: if you normally do 10 or 25, and try the other:

    Unless you get a completely new team, chances are 10man seems easier. Why? Because the 10man team will most likely be the 10 best players from the 25man team.

    Other than that: Rhyolith steering gave us a lot of trouble on 10man, seems a bit easier when I watch 25man videos, but at the moment we got it down, so maybe it was improved.
    Baleroc: not much difference I can imagine.
    Alysrazor: getting both ads correctly interupted is almost impossible, sometimes these mobs cast 2 Fieroblast in a row, and even our enhashaman just could not get those solo, and seeing how you have 4 ads instead of 2 on 25man (correct me if wrong), hp wise they will prolly be balanced, but getting more interupters on them seems easier.
    Beth'tilac, no clue, maybe a difference in spiderlings, but can't really say anything.
    Majordomo and Rag: Obviously spreading is easier on 10man, and having these big boulders chasing people seems also more chaotic. However, the amount of transition ads on Rag is the same in 10 and 25, so these are way more easy to handle in 25, seeing the increase of stuns 25 people have over 10.
    Shannox: amount of traps in 10 seems like a lot already, so I doubt there will be much more in 25, pretty equal I guess.

    And of course the normal stuff: 25 is harder to setup and manage than 10, but gives a tiny bit more loot and more buff coverage...

    Normal perspective btw, Rag not yet down due to people standing in shiny fire and healers not noticing the difference between hand of ragnaros and wrath of ragnaros, and our melee whining they get parried in p1, and walking out of range of healers =D Guess that last thing is less of a problem on 25man:P
    Baleroc there is a difference because there are more healers and much more transitioning between them and more people in crystals.
    Alysrazor more people to possibly get hit by tornadoes and that can easily cause a wipe even if only 2 people die, much less chaotic on 10 man.
    Majordomo overall mechanics allow it to be much more easy on 25 man it seems.
    Beth'tilac over all chaos, and spreading everything out equally plus execution is much harder on 25 then 10, though it's still a easy fight.
    I agree with you on shannox.

  20. #20
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    Fireland normal modes, there's really doubt 10-mans are much much easier than 25-mans. For heroic modes, it seems to even out, with some bosses probably being slightly harder on 10-man. This has been my experience: I play in a somewhat casual 25-man guild. We raid ~12 hours a week. First week of Firelands, we did 3/7 normal 25-man, with decent progress on Alysrazor. On the last day of this reset, a 10-man group went in and continued on. They killed Alysrazor in ~2 pulls, spent maybe an hour on Baleroc, Majordomo was dead in a few pulls, with people basically adjusting on the fly, and good progress was done on Ragnaros (low lvl % wipe in phase 3). Yes this 10-man group had higher average skill than our 25-man of course, but not nearly enough to be the reason they ran through these bosses like they were nothing. Second week. Despite the 10-man group downing Alysrazor in 2 pulls previous week, it takes our 25-man some ~3 hours or so before a kill. Baleroc takes maybe 3-4 hours, can't quite remember. We also get our first few hours on Ragnaros 25-man, but we're not anywhere near a kill. Like the week before, a 10-man group goes in and finishes up last day of reset (this group consisted of several different people than the previous week). Ragnaros 10-man dies on second pull. Third week. What took our 10-man group 2 pulls to do last week, takes ~5 hours to complete in our 25-man. And again, yeah the 10-man group has higher average skill, but not by that much. Edit: Something very wrong with paragraphing, it doesn't accept my spaces but instead puts in this wall of annoying text.
    Last edited by Beace; 2011-07-20 at 11:07 PM.

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