1. #1

    How Much Mastery is Too Much?

    After reading up alot i still cant decide to go for haste or crit, since mastery only buffs shields, and in 10 men i try to not use shields so much since it sucks mana although its good but can't be spammed.

    Almost all my gear has mastery on it, so i wanne reforge to haste or crit. I have about 40% mastery now. If mastery is so good, would u take all your gear with only mastery on it if it was possible.

    How much mastery is enough. Would u ignore all other stats if u could take only mastery and no crit or haste.

    Im leaning towards haste since i can't spend my mana fast enough in some situations, although i like crit too since extra healing power is always nice, but u never know when it hits so can't rely on it.

    Alot of my healing done is still with shields, so lowering mastery might lower my healing unless the gain in extra crit or haste would offset that.

    Im looking to be more allround healer, since i raidheal and tankheal depending on the fight.

    Would stat priority be different in 10 men then 25, since im sure mastery rules in 25 where u got more backup healers , while in 10 u have to be able to be more allround

  2. #2
    Legendary! Spl4sh3r's Avatar
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    In the long run Mastery is best, in that its value of each point in Mastery is the same no matter how much you have of it. But the question is not if you have to much Mastery it is do you have enough Haste and Crit?

  3. #3
    Honestly mastery is a good stat. Crit will increase the beneficial effect of Mastery. Haste will suck your mana dry faster.

    I am running 46% atm and always looking for more. I reforge out of haste into Mastery or crit. Every crit gives you 30% as a shield which is boosted by mastery. Plus I live on bubbles, even in 10m. You can manage your mana fine with atonement rotations assisted by the bubbles. Generally, I am top 2 heals in a 25 using this method against our guilds main healers.
    edit- double posting...
    Last edited by Furioer; 2011-07-21 at 01:38 AM.
    As ret I feel like an apartment complex handyman. Supposed to be able to do it all, but I suck at everything I do compared to any professional. Sure I can fix a leaking faucet and screw the hinges back into a cabinet door, but god forbid a water main breaks and the cabinets fall off the wall. Handymen are good for 1 thing, applying bandaids. If you want the job done right, hire a professional. -Furbiscuit

  4. #4
    Honestly it depends on the actual healing breakdowns you see. I'm going to use one of my healing logs as an example . In this parse I'm experimenting with a crit focused reforge, a pretty huge deviation from my normal haste reforge. I'm not the best at disc quite yet. If you dig in this log you'll notice probably immediately that I'm not using holy fire nearly enough or popping my wings as often as I can.

    If you look at that healing breakdown, you will notice that almost exactly 40% of my actual throughput was absorbs. That is DA + PW:S.

    If I subtract what would have come from mastery: I have 2.81 mastery rating (for a total of 10.81 mastery). Each point of mastery gives 2.5% larger absorbs, so my 2.81 mastery gives me 2.81*2.5 = 7.025% larger absorbs. So, that 40% of my healing that was absorbs is 7.025% larger than it would be without any mastery: 1.0725x=40, x=40/1.0725 and that 40% healing from absorbs would be 37.3%, if I had zero mastery on any of my gear.

    That is, 2.7% of my actual throughput came from mastery on this fight. I have 2.81 mastery for this parse. Each 1% mastery granted me 0.96% throughput.

    Conclusions:
    -If you have 18.5% crit like I do in this parse, mastery is worth just under 1% real throughput per 1 percent mastery. But, it's worth less at lower crit levels.

    -If crit were predictable, each point of crit rating would wind up giving you slightly less throughput than each point of mastery at my gear level. To qualify this:

    each percent crit is worth somewhere between 1.8% and 2.5% of your healing throughput, neglecting absorbs, and where it falls in that range depends on how high your mastery is.
    My healing throughput was 60% of healing/absorbs. I have 18.5% crit, so assuming this was an average parse I could normalize out the crit. That is, this 60% healing is 118.5% throughput, but if I had 0% crit (which is impossible mind) I'd only be doing 100: 60%/118.5 = x/100.
    That 60% becomes 50.6% if I normalize out the crit.
    My mastery is pretty low, I get about 1.8% of this figure per extra crit rating. That is, for this parse, 1% crit is would be worth 1.8% of the 51% of my actual throughput that came from actual heals, after normalizing for 0% crit.
    So each actual point of crit gained me about 0.91% real throughput, for this fight.

    It's not in question that each point of haste gives you a real and predictable 1% throughput boost over your base, while crit/mastery depend strongly on each other and at current gear levels really give you less than that - especially considering the worse conversion factor. Maybe at some higher gear level both crit and mastery will give better than 1% per rating, but i'm not sure yet.

    The reason though that people experiment with crit/mastery over haste is because stacking haste severely punishes high activity time, and doesn't really allow you to do more healing during any given boss segment. It's just more dependable. If you struggle with mana at all in the current content, leaning too heavily on haste hurts you.

    In the end, if you're going for a crit/mastery build it feels like you need to even the two out, but i'm still experimenting. Going haste/mastery or haste/crit makes no sense, for disc anyway.
    Last edited by zakaluka; 2011-07-21 at 02:32 AM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by zakaluka View Post
    That is, this 60% healing is 118.5% throughput, but if I had 0% crit (which is impossible mind) I'd only be doing 100: 60%/118.5 = x/100.
    dont quite understand, allthough you say crit has a 1.8% to 2.5% value, you count it as 1% healing done per point here or what?
    (because you say 18.5% crit is 118.5% throughput)

    intresting stuff. but dont forget, crit has only a mediocre your DA bubbles (if you are raidhealing with PoH anyway)
    and mastery only increases the worth of crits slightly...
    and due to this, and because crits dont occur more than that often, the effect of mastery on your DA bubbles is quite small.
    (0.5% more healing per mastery for PoH, 0.1-0.2% for every other heal)
    Last edited by TheTrueM4gg0t; 2011-07-21 at 07:06 AM.

  6. #6
    1% real healing per point, which of course is subject to averaging. ~1.9% more throughput over actual healing done, but since actual healing is about 60% of your throughput, mastery is much closer to 1%/rating than most people think.

    If a normal heal is just
    100% heal
    then a crit gives you:
    200% heal
    60% aegis
    + whatever your mastery tacks onto aegis (for me 30%)

    So 1% more crit will give me 1.90% extra throughput computed against my base healing, if I actually get consistent crits.
    If my base healing is 60% of my total throughput,
    have to normalize this down for 0% crit (~50 but i don't want to reproduce the math)
    then each 1% crit gives me 0.95% actual overall throughput (that is, 0.019*50).

    I know the common math on aoe healing with static stat weights. But these things usually disregard the synergy between crit and mastery. The only way to account for that synergy is to look at an actual parse and split up healing between 1) absorbs and 2) actual healing. The common lore gives mastery around .6% per rating, but after you account for that synergy it's more like .9-1.0 depending on your actual mastery/crit ratings.

    And, conceded, haste is still better for throughput because it has a better conversion factor. But in some circumstances you might find that having a mastery/crit build improves your actual healing done/hps the fight over, where haste just allows you to spike higher.
    Last edited by zakaluka; 2011-07-21 at 08:40 AM.

  7. #7
    I am Murloc! Bananarepublic's Avatar
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    When it absorbs OVER 9000!1!

    OT: I wouldn't really know im not much of a pve player and about pvp I wouldn't know either because I just stack resilience like crazy there.
    Last edited by Bananarepublic; 2011-07-21 at 09:23 AM.

  8. #8
    im a mastery stacking whore (WTB necromantic focus!! ) with 47% bonus absorb and all secondary reforging into crit. raid buffed i sit at 26% crit without focus magic and spirit is a measly 1550

    fights like majordomo and beth'tilac ( periodic PoH spam) the output is untouchable and divine aegis is my No1 on recount. ive tried reforging all other stats to crit, but only gained 4%, not that awesome for leveling out RNG

    i also tried the same for haste, reforging all stats and if i moved for 2secs, suddnely all the benefits were lost

    so IMO, there is never too much mastery. pop the moonwell chalice with PI and watch the resto druids cry

  9. #9
    Why would resto druids cry? We are on the same team... being the healing team. Who cares about meters except normal fools who think its cool?

    To the OP, in all actuality, it really matters upon your role for the fight, if you are raid healing a bunch with poh and the like, mastery is best, if for some reason you are tank healing (not recommended, except for heroic 10m baleroc and the like) crit is better. Haste isnt really an issue for priests atm, just mastery and secondary reforge to crit as most others have said

  10. #10
    yes, it is a team, but freindly banter and making sure people dont die is our teams motto.

    and if people dont care about meters, why do top guilds ask for multiple WoL parses? i use recount to see if people are slacking, not becasue im a "fool who thinks its cool"

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by zakaluka View Post
    If you look at that healing breakdown, you will notice that almost exactly 40% of my actual throughput was absorbs. That is DA + PW:S.

    If I subtract what would have come from mastery: I have 2.81 mastery rating (for a total of 10.81 mastery). Each point of mastery gives 2.5% larger absorbs, so my 2.81 mastery gives me 2.81*2.5 = 7.025% larger absorbs. So, that 40% of my healing that was absorbs is 7.025% larger than it would be without any mastery: 1.0725x=40, x=40/1.0725 and that 40% healing from absorbs would be 37.3%, if I had zero mastery on any of my gear.

    That is, 2.7% of my actual throughput came from mastery on this fight. I have 2.81 mastery for this parse. Each 1% mastery granted me 0.96% throughput.
    Your math here is combining the mastery on your gear multiplicatively [ base * (1 + 20%) * (1 + 7.025%) ] with your base mastery instead of additively [ base * (1 + 20% + 7.025%) ], artificially inflating the value of the additional mastery. 10.81 mastery is 27.025% Shield Discipline, 8 mastery provides 20%. Those 40% absorbs without gear mastery would have been 40%/(1 + 27.025%)*(1 + 20%) = 37.8%. Net difference from gear is then 2.2% for a throughput increase of 0.78% per mastery.

    Your crit analysis would be more accurate if you use actual crit rates from the parse instead of the 18.5% from your character sheet, e.g., there's a huge difference between that 18.5% and the actual ~35% crit rate you had on PoH. Then you need to account for that fact that your crits were more prone to overhealing than non-crits (average crit less than twice average heal), and most importantly for the fact that the majority of your DA absorbs are due to crits and that those absorbs are less prone to overhealing.

    Last but not least: you should probably do the entire analysis in terms of raw healing instead of effective healing. If 42% of your PoH was overheal, it's likely that 42% of the resultant DA was also overheal that got pushed off onto another healer's meter. When there's more healing available than damage to heal, the fact that a large part of our output comes from absorbs somewhat insulates Disc priests against overheal. That effect will also inflate the apparent value of mastery.

    TLDR: There are a huge number of complicating factors that make it very challenging to compute marginal stat values from a parse.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by CaseyTheRetard View Post
    Your math here is combining the mastery on your gear multiplicatively [...] artificially inflating the value of the additional mastery.
    Yeah, oops, you got me. That'll knock it down by maybe .05%. Have to normalize down to a value of 0 shield discipline.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaseyTheRetard View Post
    Your crit analysis would be more accurate if you use actual crit rates
    I thought about this, but it's hard to account for renewed hope. I couldn't think of a good way to do it. There's a lot of slop there, that will only depend on how many of your heals are affected by Renewed Hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaseyTheRetard View Post
    you should probably do the entire analysis in terms of raw healing instead of effective healing
    This however is an extremely good point and will probably change my conclusions a lot.

    I do think, though, that it's possible to get a good idea of how much your secondary stats weighed in from a parse. Yes, complicated, but doable. And I think I'll wind up with a better answer to the question than most people have by going at it this way. Simply because everywhere I look someone is shouting loudly that 'X secondary stat is the best!' with a plausible argument to back up their claim.
    Last edited by zakaluka; 2011-07-21 at 06:22 PM.

  13. #13
    Fluffy Kitten Ultima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furioer View Post
    Honestly mastery is a good stat. Crit will increase the beneficial effect of Mastery. Haste will suck your mana dry faster.
    I must have missed a nerf to Haste in the last patch. Did they add an old [Viper Sting] affect in large quantities to balance off how good a stat it is?
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  14. #14
    The only right answer is whatever "feels" right, which can change from encounter to encounter. How much do you rely on clutch shielding? How much do you shield? Can your mana maintain that? How much haste are you sacrificing? Is your crit to low? etc. etc. etc.

    There is no magic number.
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