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  1. #201
    what is rapture?

  2. #202
    Rapture is is a Discipline tree talent that gives 6% max mana pool back every time a PWShield is fully absorbed (and it has an ICD).


    Ethas:

    Strange, but at the first tier set 2 FH per fight could easily lead me to oom at the last %s of the boss's health (usualy toughest part of the fight).
    I find that very hard to believe considering what the relative HPS and HPM values are for Holy's direct healing toolkit. Within the context of the content, the first tier had much less spamming requirement than the current tier. While the MPS numbers didn't scale with combat regen during this expansion, the incoming raid damage did. A lot less healing was required back in t11. The total number of direct heal spells required and cast then was far less than now. Keep that in mind, and consider the following:


    I went ahead and did some number crunching using my current spec with and without my weapon to simulate the spell power range of this expansion. No Inner Fire in either case, however in both cases my haste is fixed at 13.47% since my weapon has not haste on it. 2% is from talents and the rest from my gear. The healing values and cast times are derived from tooltips in game. The numbers that follow have been calculated directly from in game values on my spreadsheet, I can provide those numbers upon request but for the sake of this post's size I am omitting them. Rounding errors exist, but for the sake of this discussion this is 'good enough'.

    Code:
    @6,890 Spell power:
    Spell           HPS               HPM             MPS
    Heal            3,685.5         4.375           842.3
    FHeal          12,293.2         2.815         4,367.4
    BHeal          19,165.2         4.388         4,367.4
    GHeal           9,835.5         3.892         2,542.6
    
    FHx1/GH        12,293.8         3.516         3,469.1
    FHx2/GH        13,659.6         3.386         4,034.6
    
    
    @10,066 Spell power:
    Spell           HPS               HPM
    Heal            4,405.5         5.230
    FHeal          14,697.0         3.365
    BHeal          22,771.2         5.214
    GHeal          11,759.1         4.654
    
    FHx1/GH        14,698.1         4.204
    FHx2/GH        16,330.8         4.048


    Very relevant results:
    1) Outright FHeal from Gheal spam has a HPM loss of ~27.7% and a HPS gain of ~25%, again at both gear levels.
    2) And more importantly, what I stated in an earlier post, is that if you utilize Serendipity as it comes it's actually relatively efficient.

    Specifically, FHx2/GHeal cycles from Gheal spam has a HPM loss of only 13% and a HPS gain of 38.9% at both gear levels.

    Things to consider:
    -Binding Heal should always be used where you can. It's flat out just broken how good it is.
    -You're less likely to overheal with FHeal vs Gheal, simply due to other incoming healing on the same target having more time to beat you to it.
    -Serendipity stacks can be used on PoH as well, allowing for more immediate raid healing
    -Utilizing FHealx2/Gheal over Gheal frees up substantial active time giving more opportunities to prevent a death.


    Most especially:
    -The extra time freed up by FHeal use does not have to be used if mana is a major concern.


    Right now you can use FH/GH, but very occasionally, since you are far better at AoE healing than single-target.
    This is a strawman statement that deters the point of the discussion, which has to do with the mana efficiency of Fheal.

    I will point out that raid size has a huge impact on what needs to get healed vs who can heal. Specifically, if you are a Holy priest on 10 man you WILL be using direct heals more.




    Also, Zakula crunched the numbers, I'll go ahead and point out what can be derived from his data set:

    1)Utilizing Fheal in AoE healing cycles has no substantial change on HPS. If you need to squeeze a couple in to prevent a death it doesn't impact anything HPS wise.

    2)Utilizing Bheal in AoE healing cycles has a substantial gain in HPS and should definitely be done if the priest has a health deficit - period.
    Last edited by Themos; 2012-03-05 at 06:11 AM.

  3. #203
    Are you working off tooltips, or are those meant to be in-game values? Those numbers seem a little bit low. GHeal and Heal should both be about 8, FHeal should be about 5.5. Serendipity chains should be between 6 and 10 depending on Serenity usage. Either way, an HPM loss is an HPM loss. Taking an HPM loss is OK for triage, but I feel like you're saying it's just fine to use FH liberally. I mean, sure, on morchok 25 when I ran Holy FH was 20% of my throughput, but that's because I kept being shafted into the side with no real tank / spot heals.

    I just don't really know what we're debating here. You are me, 6 months ago, claiming that holy has good spot heals and tank heals. Only now, I've finally come to realize there's no way to make FHeal keep up. It's something I have to resist doing, something that not only steals mana but also throughput if I'm AoE healing. Serendipity doesn't make FHeal good, it only softens the blow.

    Yes, FHeal - PoH has lower throughput than PoH. And the healing is rear-loaded. Same reason you were telling me not to reroll sanc in the middle of aoe, but adding to it the overall throughput is lower. Sanc at least gains me ground. What hpriest uses GHeal so much? We want to resist spot healing, let the other healers do them. I don't see the premise. How much time do we spend in Serenity chakra? Myself, not a great deal.
    Last edited by zakaluka; 2012-03-05 at 06:54 AM.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by zakaluka View Post
    We want to resist spot healing, let the other healers do them. I don't see the premise. How much time do we spend in Serenity chakra? Myself, not a great deal.
    That's you. I spend considerably most of my time in Serenity. Looking at my recent Heroic Hagara kill number of casts for direct heals:

    FHeal 26
    BHeal 16
    GHeal 7
    Serenity 11
    SoL procs used 2 of 3

    I'm clearly not optimizing my Serendipity stacks, especially if you count my BHeal casts. It's insanely bad in that light. But my mana can afford it and those casts were necessary due to Focused Assault and death prevention heals, which this fight has oodles of.

    Don't knock Serenity Chakra. It does really well if you give it a chance on 10 man. You are at a mana surplus due to Renew refreshes and you can afford the 'waste' on Fheal. You don't leech more mana from your other healers cause you don't oom yourself.



    --EDIT == I have no idea how you are getting 5-8 HPM values for direct heals. That doesn't make any sense.
    FHeal has a mana cost of 5765, to have an HPM of 5.5 it would need to heal for 31707.5, which it does not.
    I presume you are factoring in crit rates and EoL?

    I ignored EoL b/c it's equivalent across the board.
    Crit rates have a very wide distribution depending Chakra stance and Serenity debuff - easily 30%<->50%
    Let's not go there unless we use an actual WoL, and I would definitely not consider these two factors without considering overhealing as well.
    Last edited by Themos; 2012-03-05 at 10:04 AM.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Themos View Post
    I find that very hard to believe considering what the relative HPS and HPM values are for Holy's direct healing toolkit. Within the context of the content, the first tier had much less spamming requirement than the current tier. While the MPS numbers didn't scale with combat regen during this expansion, the incoming raid damage did. A lot less healing was required back in t11. The total number of direct heal spells required and cast then was far less than now. Keep that in mind, and consider the following:
    At the start of Cata we didn't have decent enough mana regen to allow us freely cast FH/FH+GH. It is excelent highlighted by your numbers showing FH as our worst spell HPM wise. Don't see anything wrong in my words, sorry. Like I said, 2-3 FHs could easily leave me with no mana. 10 man is sure different story.
    The Mists of Pandaria coming on September 25

  6. #206
    Look again, while Fheal's HPM is crap - FHealx2/Gheal is much closer to that of Gheal. Within 13%, which I noted in the same post.

    And as far Holy's combat regen at the first leg of Cataclysm. It was so OP, especially with 4 set t11, that they nerfed Holy Concentration substantially as a result. We were definitely able to do Fhealx2/Gheal when necessary instead of Gheal. Coupled with the nerf, and going into t12, our combat regen didnt really go up that much. Only with 4.3 did combat regen go super obscene. And in FLs I was definitely able to FHeal a lot. You need to keep in mind that refreshing a Renew with FHeal makes the overall HPM very favorable. If using a FHeal instead of a GHeal keeps that extra Renew going, it's very much worth it.

    On a side not, this arguing probably has a lot more to do with Mastery vs Haste, come to think of it. I've been using Mastery heavy itemization since Cata hit. That may be the difference in impressions regarding mana strain. ./shrug
    Last edited by Themos; 2012-03-05 at 03:58 PM.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Themos View Post
    Look again, while Fheal's HPM is crap - FHealx2/Gheal is much closer to that of Gheal. Within 13%, which I noted in the same post.

    And as far Holy's combat regen at the first leg of Cataclysm. It was so OP, especially with 4 set t11, that they nerfed Holy Concentration substantially as a result. We were definitely able to do Fhealx2/Gheal when necessary instead of Gheal. Coupled with the nerf, and going into t12, our combat regen didnt really go up that much. Only with 4.3 did combat regen go super obscene. And in FLs I was definitely able to FHeal a lot. You need to keep in mind that refreshing a Renew with FHeal makes the overall HPM very favorable. If using a FHeal instead of a GHeal keeps that extra Renew going, it's very much worth it.
    See, its HPM is nowhere near PoH and it's efficiency in 25 man at Cata start. In 10 man you are ofcourse forced to go single-target chakra, but BH/GH/Serenity just kills FH by a large margin. This is emergency heal and should not be used often.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themos View Post
    On a side not, this arguing probably has a lot more to do with Mastery vs Haste, come to think of it. I've been using Mastery heavy itemization since Cata hit. That may be the difference in impressions regarding mana strain. ./shrug
    Yep the same for me. Never understood the need of Haste in early months of addon. I would probably stack up mastery to the death, but sadly they stopped to make items with it.
    Last edited by Ethas; 2012-03-05 at 06:08 PM.
    The Mists of Pandaria coming on September 25

  8. #208
    Themos isn't really that far off the mark with his claim that FH+serendipity's effic almost matches GH. There's still a lot hpriest misses by staying in serenity chakra too much, anyway, and it makes kind of a moot point. You have to make up effic on Renew somehow, and that's pretty difficult/situational. 20% lower overheal can't bridge the gap between 6.5 HPM and 14 HPM.

    I'm not really much interested in this argument anymore, mostly I just want to post the numbers I came up with in simcraft, because the numbers I said earlier were wrong. These account for Echo, Crit, Serenity chakra, and the average effect of PT/LW.



    Simcraft carries a known bug that keeps it from calculating 2nd stack of Serendipity correctly, so I had to derive the FHx2-GH chain from FH and GH. You get:
    FH-FH-GH: 25.6K HPS, 6.1 HPM

    If anyone's actually following this discussion trying to learn something, all I can say is this: the numbers are indeed useful. They should tell you exactly what spells to prioritize. Don't be confused by the fact that people come to wildly different conclusions with this same data. Think it through for yourself.
    Last edited by zakaluka; 2012-03-05 at 06:23 PM.

  9. #209
    The Patient Skyepic's Avatar
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    Hey mazi, great guide. Gunna forward this to my gf, she plays a priest as well and could use the tips. Her T12 2pc uptime needs some work.

  10. #210
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyepic View Post
    Hey mazi, great guide. Gunna forward this to my gf, she plays a priest as well and could use the tips. Her T12 2pc uptime needs some work.
    /facepalm -,-

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by zakaluka View Post
    Themos isn't really that far off the mark with his claim that FH+serendipity's effic almost matches GH. There's still a lot hpriest misses by staying in serenity chakra too much, anyway, and it makes kind of a moot point. You have to make up effic on Renew somehow, and that's pretty difficult/situational. 20% lower overheal can't bridge the gap between 6.5 HPM and 14 HPM.
    Each Renew you keep rolling is worth about ~1500 free HPS (probably more in a full raid buffed environment), in a 10 man environment you can easily keep it going throughout a boss fight on 3 targets, casting them only once. If you put your mind to it, on 5 targets (think Morchok). Which is a 4,500 and 7,500 HPS gain while you single target heal. It adds up. The latter situation puts your chart numbers at or above 33K HPS which is much damn closer to PoH. This doesn't even broach overhealing - completely ignoring it and tacking on BHeal use, cause it'll be a neat mix of direct healing spells (my above Hagara list is a good example) and the total HPS climbs even higher and overtakes PoH.

    The absolute beauty, and why this shines in 10 man vs 25 man, is that you only have 2 options for PoH - either group 1 or 2 on 10 man and a lot of times it's a crapshoot. This isn't the case in 25 man, there's always some group that needs PoH. On a 10 man, with Serenity/Renew/Direct Heals, if you are shooting for 5 perma Renews, you have ~252 possible combinations in a 10 man which let's you do pretty much what you need to do instead of locking you into some spell rotation. And you can still PoH if you need to even in Serenity.

    Realistically, 3 Renews going perma in a 10 man is much more real and even then you have 120 options.

    EDIT -- If we are going for realism, one of those 3 Renews will be on your tank, but that still gives you 36 possibilities for the other 2 Renews



    If anyone's actually following this discussion trying to learn something, all I can say is this: the numbers are indeed useful. They should tell you exactly what spells to prioritize. Don't be confused by the fact that people come to wildly different conclusions with this same data. Think it through for yourself.
    On this, I'll agree with you. Under the caveat you take to heart what your raid group needs from you. If you need to tank heal or triage, you can definitely still pump out very sexy numbers with fantastic efficiency, that's my only point. Holy has a lot of options. Do what you want.
    Last edited by Themos; 2012-03-05 at 10:20 PM.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Themos View Post
    Each Renew you keep rolling is worth about ~1500 free HPS (probably more in a full raid buffed environment), in a 10 man environment you can easily keep it going throughout a boss fight on 3 targets, casting them only once. If you put your mind to it, on 5 targets (think Morchok). Which is a 4,500 and 7,500 HPS gain while you single target heal. It adds up. The latter situation puts your chart numbers at or above 33K HPS which is much damn closer to PoH. This doesn't even broach overhealing - completely ignoring it and tacking on BHeal use, cause it'll be a neat mix of direct healing spells (my above Hagara list is a good example) and the total HPS climbs even higher and overtakes PoH.

    The absolute beauty, and why this shines in 10 man vs 25 man, is that you only have 2 options for PoH - either group 1 or 2 on 10 man and a lot of times it's a crapshoot. This isn't the case in 25 man, there's always some group that needs PoH. On a 10 man, with Serenity/Renew/Direct Heals, if you are shooting for 5 perma Renews, you have ~252 possible combinations in a 10 man which let's you do pretty much what you need to do instead of locking you into some spell rotation. And you can still PoH if you need to even in Serenity.

    Realistically, 3 Renews going perma in a 10 man is much more real and even then you have 120 options.

    EDIT -- If we are going for realism, one of those 3 Renews will be on your tank, but that still gives you 36 possibilities for the other 2 Renews
    Impressive numbers, but they are just useless. When I use Heal I have 25 options in 25 man raid. Or when I use HW:Sanc in 25 man I have something like 4.2163840398198056e+025 options to choose 1-25 unique players from 25 players standing in it. Isn't it cool? xD

    Quote Originally Posted by Themos View Post
    On this, I'll agree with you. Under the caveat you take to heart what your raid group needs from you. If you need to tank heal or triage, you can definitely still pump out very sexy numbers with fantastic efficiency, that's my only point. Holy has a lot of options. Do what you want.
    I agree aswell =)
    The Mists of Pandaria coming on September 25

  13. #213
    I have been playing a holy priest for a very long time and even I took some things out of this. Thank you

  14. #214
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roh View Post
    I have been playing a holy priest for a very long time and even I took some things out of this. Thank you
    You're welcome!

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazi View Post
    You're welcome!
    Hi mazi . I m on investigation about mastery/haste . I saw u stacked full haste. Some of top ranked holy priests olso stacked haste. May I ask reason ?

  16. #216
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapheal View Post
    Hi mazi . I m on investigation about mastery/haste . I saw u stacked full haste. Some of top ranked holy priests olso stacked haste. May I ask reason ?
    I was a balance of Mastery & Haste throughout progression.. Haste up to 2.0 cast PoH and then about 15 Mastery and it worked really well. But since we've been farming for many weeks now I swapped to Haste in order to keepup as most of my EoL was going to overheal whereas on progression it was not

  17. #217
    Very helpful. Thanks you.

  18. #218
    Mazi why does Planet always out heal you?!? =P

  19. #219
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flay- View Post
    Mazi why does Planet always out heal you?!? =P
    That question is so full of fail. I'll leave it at that.

  20. #220
    Herald of the Titans Joyful's Avatar
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    Hai, not sure this is the right place to ask but I need answers semi quick.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...pheta/advanced is my char and I more or less need input on what I should spec and if I should do anything special with the gear I have available.
    So to the question, I'm going to be healing spine hc with that char, got a resto druid and resto shaman as "partners" and I've been asked to go holy and will mostly focus on clearing debuffs and such now, what is the best way of going to clear the debuffs and keep people alive both in spell usage and specs and gearing. (I do have 3.1k valor points and can do LFR to hope I get something in there if need be) Thanks in advance and I hope I get some help

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