Warrior Tank Dying on Majordomo - Need Input

[fate1420]

Judging from the logs it was the holy paladin not the warrior tank. Seems you are pointing the finger in the wrong direction.

[Deleted]

Warrior and Paladin tanks take damage in a different way than Druid and DK tanks. I am well aware of the feeling that the block tank is taking more damage (even though this is not actually the case) because they are constantly taking damage. Less dodge/parry and absorb mechanic means that a steady influx of damage is going to be coming in, which in turn means that the healers need to adjust to a more spammy style. Ideally the upside of this is that there will be less spikes, but regardless I feel like a warrior should be able to tank Majordomo just fine.

You should speak with your healers and identify if it's a mana issue or a position issue or what. Don't single out the HPally either, it's a combined effort on that fight to heal the tank during Cat phase, it's not like there's much else happening except tank+1 other person being damaged. In the Scorpion phase obviously your Pally needs to be chain casting heals on your tank and time them to land right after slashes (while using HR on CD near the end of the phase).

[Deleted]

Never fun to have to do the fingerpointing, but yeah .. looks like healer error to me too, looking at what heals landed at/just before the tank deaths.

More direct heals would have saved the day; perhaps the healers were low on mana or simply being a bit stingy with their inefficient heals.

[twopac187]

There is a lot to be said for debuffing the boss here too. I don't really wanna take the time to go through everyone on every wipe to check uptimes on debuffs, but suffice it to say the warrior used a total of 2 Thunder Claps and 0 Demoralizing Shouts on all wipes that he was tanking. Stats are only part of the story.

If you'd like something to compare against, here is our log from our only work on 10M Staghelm, we raid 25 mans, this was from our first week clean-up 10 man raid.
Granted this is across 13 attempts versus only 6 for your warrior, but I cast 40 demo shouts and 207 thunderclaps on those 13 attempts

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-p21ur85870f41dr9/details/5/?enc=bosses&boss=52571

[eErike]

Demo shout should be covered by the ret paladin, so I don't think that's the biggest problem.

[Darkfriend]

What about dying to domos flame sythe? A druid will have more HP. Don't think normal dodge/parry will mitigate the sythe.

[Perceus]

I know you said about the druids healing.. like most classes they can only hot up on the movement phase whereas a resto shaman can pop spiritwalkers grace where they can heal on the move.

Sorry its slightly offtopic but it is a big help in these situations.

[twopac187]

Demo shout should be covered by the ret paladin, so I don't think that's the biggest problem.

I raid with a Ret pally as well. I still have to refresh Demo Shout quite a bit. As I said in the Warrior specific thread, I would suggest using WeakAuras or PowerAuras to track debuffs. Makes a huge difference in the long term

[Deleted]

What about dying to domos flame sythe? A druid will have more HP. Don't think normal dodge/parry will mitigate the sythe.

I'm not so sure bears would even have more HP, things aren't balanced the way the were in WotLK. And I'm actually under the impression Warriors have better anti-magic CDs due to Shield Block blocking magic by 20% now. So no, that can't be it. Warriors and any other class as well can easily tank this.

However someone mentioned Thunder Clap and Demo Shout, if the warrior doesn't have 100% uptime (or similar effect) on these for the boss AND as many of the cats that spawn then he needs to get on that ASAP.

[Emek]

As a healer, your heals are lacking hard. Idk what changed between you tanking and him tanking, but that's it. heals are doing too low of hps

[NilModern]

I didn't checked the logs, but some guy on the other thread said there is gap between healing, and now you say it too.
Ok your holy pala what is he doing, where is his beacon? its impossible the tank to not receive any heals for 4-6sec's! I mean what your paladin have been doing? Just go tell your healers to stop slacking and blaming the tank, because they fail.

Pretty much this. A few people have already told you that the heals shouldn't be having such huge gaps between healing the tank, yet you seem to want it to be that your prot warrior is "doing something wrong."

[Velidan]

A warrior that is reforged/gemmed/enchanted on mastery takes less physical damage then bear with good 372+ item level.
The lower IL is the better bear becomes. If you are both 359 with a couple 378 items then it is normal that bear takes less damage.
If your warr does not insanely stack mastery over everything else he will surely die from any touch.

[MestHoop]

Hmm I get what you're saying but I still don't agree totally. I know too well about Bears Savage Defense being on a 3-roll system and the amount of RNG that involves. That said, when a Bear reaches the DR on Dodge, they Dodge a crap load of hits. Right now in half Firelands gear, I reached the DR cap on Dodge, got 47k armor and SD is more or less up all the time.

We have 3 tanks in my guild: Bear, Warrior and Paladin. We're all equally geared and the healers all say that I'm the one taking least dmg. That said, I've been owned by bad RNG several times where it has cost a wipe. Other times I've been really lucky, like when I tanked Chimaeron from 20% to 4%, before I actually died.

I read all your posts, and if this is true, your warrior is popping the wrong cools at the wrong time.
I'm pretty up to date with prot warrior mechanics and it seems like he's doing everything correctly.

Something you COULD take into consideration: your holy paladin could've been the one failing and is blaming the warrior.
Not saying your paladin is untrustworthy, but people's knee-jerk reaction to failure is "blame someone else".

[Deleted]

We have 3 tanks in my guild: Bear, Warrior and Paladin. We're all equally geared and the healers all say that I'm the one taking least dmg. That said, I've been owned by bad RNG several times where it has cost a wipe. Other times I've been really lucky, like when I tanked Chimaeron from 20% to 4%, before I actually died.

You said it, RNG, you were just lucky
No other tank has as much passive mitigation, and not really that dependant on RNG.
So over a longer sample size(then one fight...)
Warrior damage taken will come out lower
And you should almost never trust a healer for tank damage / their view of tank damage taken

back on track:
tanktjej looks very good stat wise.
Only things i would change:
Missing one JC gem (67 mastery)
Waist should be reforged dodge to mastery.
Being cheap on the hands enchant.
Eternal Shadowspirit diamond is a better meta gem.

Even so ^^, there's really no reason your tank should flat out die / not be geared for it. (she's quite overgeared for normal)
I'd look at healers :P

A warrior that is reforged/gemmed/enchanted on mastery takes less physical damage then bear with good 372+ item level.
The lower IL is the better bear becomes. If you are both 359 with a couple 378 items then it is normal that bear takes less damage.
If your warr does not insanely stack mastery over everything else he will surely die from any touch.

Sigh ^^...not true..

---------- Post added 2011-07-25 at 10:39 AM ----------

Demo shout should be covered by the ret paladin, so I don't think that's the biggest problem.

Why should a dps waste globals on applying demo ? :P

[Deleted]

Why should a dps waste globals on applying demo ? :P

It's a Ret pally, not a warrior. Paladin version of Demo Shout gets auto applied, no GCD required.

With that said no tank should rely on that 100%. Keep your own debuffs going imo.

[eErike]

Actually, by looking into it, rets does not aply demo any more, and depending on the spec sometimes not even the thunderclap effect, so more shoutz and clapz ploxx (and Blizzard, stop changing mechanics from wotlk to cata so I'm totally of the track while trying to bash people on the forums).

[Sligboy]

just looking ] the WoL I think your warrior need to use his abilities, specialy the mitigation one like Sheild Block (8% uptime.....really?), LS, SW aren't use really often either.... or thunderclap and DS so I think your overall problem is that your warrior didn't perform well

[Attenborough]

It's my opinion that your warrior isn't very good. People are calling out the healers, but this Warr isn't putting up basic debuffs to keep himself from taking extra damage.

Try number one: 6+ minute fight.

Devastates: 157.
Heroic Strikes: 74.
Revenges: 4. (Revenge is a very important ability for Warr threat)
Shield Slams: 17. (Shield slam is the most important ability for Warr threat)
Rends: 0.
TClaps: 0. (Reduces attack speed by 20% making him take 20% less damage)
Demoralizing Shouts: 0. (Reduces phys damage by 10% making him take 10% less damage)

Try number 5: 5 minute fight.

Devastates: 138.
Heroic Strikes: 70.
Revenges: 3. (Revenge is a very important ability for Warr threat)
Shield Slams: 24. (Shield slam is the most important ability for Warr threat)
Rends: 2.
TClaps: 1. (Reduces attack speed by 20% making him take 20% less damage)
Demoralizing Shouts: 0. (Reduces phys damage by 10% making him take 10% less damage)


Basically he's just mashing Devastate and HS. Over and over. He never pops Inner Rage, either, which is fantastic for the Scorpion phase because you gen so much rage that you cap out pretty much constantly. Inner Rage reduces the cast time of Heroic Strike so he can rapidfire smash it to do more TPS-- it's a DPS cooldown for tanks, pretty much. By the amount of taunts he's slinging, I'm assuming his TPS was pretty much in the gutter, right? Like he held aggro like it was glass and his arms were covered in cooking oil

Imagine what kind of DPS you'd do if you mashed like, Cat DPS Button 1 and Cat DPS Button 2. Over and over. Over and over and over. This is the quality of player this guy is. Based on his buffs gained, he doesn't even pop dps cooldowns when it would be appropriate, like Recklessness, Inner Rage, Retaliation, etc.

6m40s, the time of your first kill, is like 400 seconds. That's 266 GCDs in that time period for a Warr. 157 of them were Devastate. He spent 60% of his time in this fight pressing Devastate. He pressed Devastate for 3 straight minutes.

Look at twopac187's logs for a much more healthy warrior who knows what the hell he's doing. For a frame of reference, I chose a fight that was similar: probably also a wipe, also around 6m40s long. This warr used Inner Rage 12 times (making heroic strike's cooldown much, much shorter) and popped off 84 Heroic Strikes during that time period. As far as Devastate, he did 41. While your guy busts out 4 revenges, this guy does nearly fifty.

But, I mean, you don't need me to tell you this because he wiped two attempts by standing in fire.

[Sligboy]

I
Revenges: 3. (Revenge is a very important ability for Warr threat)

It really depends on:
* how much rage you got
* how much vengeance you got.

On this fight (single target most of the time) revenge isn't that usefull imo

[Tharkkun]

Warriors very often have parry higher than dodge due to their talents (can't view them right now on my phone). You also need to check thunderclap and demo shout up time. He should also be holding cooldowns for when healers are forced to move. For a nomal mode encounter a druid has a lot more wiggle room in terms of effective health and avoidance.

Definitely. Look here. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/a...ses&boss=52571 and click Buffs Gained.

It looks like Danish was applying infected wounds from cat form but if you add infected wounds + thunderclap you still have 57.1% uptime. No demo shout at all and demo roar was 15.1% which I assume is when Danish tanked it.

That's a lot of unnecessary damage to be taking. I would advise this warrior get *any* timer mod and watch for the major debuffs. He will need it going forward regardless.