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  1. #41
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    I'm no Warrior expert, though judging from some of the posts above your Warr clearly has a few things which could be improved.

    However, as a Holy Pala I find it hard to understand how during a few of the deaths your Warr goes 4-6s without receiving either a direct heal or something through beacon from your Holy Pala. During cat phase there is nothing to heal beside the tank and whoever gets leaping flames (unless the orbs are up), so at worst there should be something going through beacon from the lf target, if not direct heals. If you are moving in at those moments a hpala has 2 sprints and there should be no way in any case that it should be taking 6s to get into position, on one your tank receives 5 ticks of Holy Radiance without receiving a single other heal from the hpala, what is he doing during that time (around 4.2s) if not casting any heal either directly on the tank or that transfers through beacon?

    Not to just pick on the hpala, but being one myself it's easier for me to do so, shortly before most of the deaths he only receives a heal from the druid most of the time. Certainly the tank is at some fault judging by other comments, but at times it seems like he's not getting as much help as he could be from the healers either.

    As to why the healing is suddenly fine when you switch tanks idk, maybe the healers struggle with the more steady incoming damage on the warrior, rather than the spiky damage on a bear, but "he takes more damage" is usually the first excuse I go to when I was casting a holy light thinking of my mana and the tank dies because it should've been a divine light And with that said perhaps a 2nd trinket with a spirit proc/on use would be a better choice than the Alysrazor one if he is having mana problems, likewise with Heartsong v Power Torrent, I had no mana issues on this fight (we had a RSham, but no hymns or innverates), with plea during transitions probably 3 times per try it really shouldn't be a problem.

  2. #42
    Being a prot warr myself, I can speak to the fact that his deaths are most likely caused by the unfamiliarity the healers have with healing a shield style tank. Not only do we take different amounts of damage in a different speed, but you also swapped out the shaman for the druid. This throws off the synergy that your main healers are used to having with each other, over time healers will learn what targets tend to take more damage at what speed, and adjust accordingly between them. Having a new healer to the mix probably complicated things; additionally, the raid probably needed to be watched more by the other healers who were used to have the shaman bomb the raid with healing rain. All of our attempts normally have our resto shammy have a significant portion of his heals on that fight just be healing rain, with minimal overhealing. Granted druids are nice at raid heals too, but in the scorpion phase nothing can really beat out a solid healing rain, which is why the other healers had to help with raid healing and ignore the tank (mistakingly).

    To speak to the warrior though, he def. needs to save some sort of CD for the transitions when the healers can only throw out instants, but as a warrior, you can make sure he's using shield block every transition which reduces damage by an incredible amount. But just to reiterate, all the wipes where you're seeing him not recieve direct heals for an extended period of time is most likely the healers not accustomed to healing together, and as a result, trying to top off the raid.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Attenborough View Post

    Look at twopac187's logs for a much more healthy warrior who knows what the hell he's doing. For a frame of reference, I chose a fight that was similar: probably also a wipe, also around 6m40s long. This warr used Inner Rage 12 times (making heroic strike's cooldown much, much shorter) and popped off 84 Heroic Strikes during that time period. As far as Devastate, he did 41. While your guy busts out 4 revenges, this guy does nearly fifty.
    Thanks for the props There is certainly a lot of finesse that goes into playing a Prot Warior well and it's only about 65% about gear/enchants/gems/reforges. We have a TON of abilities, knowing when to use them takes time, experience, and a little thought.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    Hello guys,

    After my guild took down Majordomo last week with fairly ease (10 man), we wiped for 2½ hours today. The reason behind this seemed to be our Warrior tank dying.

    Last week our MT (Feral Bear) was tanking and our Shaman healer was available. Tonight we lacked dps and the Bear (me) had to go dps and our Warrior tank had to be the MT. We also had our Resto Druid in stead of the Resto Shaman but they're both good at what they're doing, apart from the Resto Druid being new in our roster.

    Our HPala was lacking the Mana Tide, but with me as Feral Cat, I could Innervate him and pop my Tranq (2/2 in Nurturing). Our Spriest used his Hymn of Hope as well so we thought it should be cowered.

    The thing is that our HPala kept saying that our Prot Warrior took a lot more dmg than I do. Gear wise I'm a bit ahead of the Warrior but tbh gear shouldn't be the issue.

    After 2½ hour or so, we pugged a dps and had me go tank. We 2 shotted Majordomo after making a silly mistake. That ofc leads me to think, that there's something wrong. That the Warrior isn't doing it right. He saved all his CD's for the cat phase but I'd like some input, since I don't know a lot about Prot Warriors in Cata.
    The answer to your solution is mastery and most importantly that trinket with mastery and resistance cd... it's a life saver since warriors don't have any talents for reduced spell reduction nor glyphs try it out. Also try using Rallying Cry's for last Scorpion form cleaves, since your healers are spreading out to change his form, it gives your healers a couple seconds to top him off before cd finishes. GL
    "I tink I taw a putty twat!" "I did...I did see a putty twat!"

  5. #45
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    Mastery doesn't block magic damage, which is a large % of the damage that goes out on Majordomo, so no, Mastery is NOT the solution. Not to mention his Mastery is actually pretty good on his Armory, so he's not lacking in that department. Using Rallying Cry IS however a good suggestion as well as using his trinket's "on use" function. Seems like you didn't even look at his armory since you suggest that he use the trinket that he's already using. Also Warriors DO have a way to reduce incoming magic damage in the form of Shield Block giving 6 seconds of 20% magic damage reduction every time we use it.

  6. #46
    I would imagine hes not using Cooldowns at the right time and neither are the healers

  7. #47
    Simple case of healers not being good at the world of warcraft. Tanks took comparable damage. This wasn't a class thing.

  8. #48
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    Okay ty for all the input guys. I've have literally been spending hours going through the logs (which I'm not good at), checked up on Prot Warriors in general and talked to the healers and the tank.

    The tank actually used to be MS Holy Priest and only switched to his Prot Warrior in Cata. For a semi hardcore i.e raiding guild 3 nights a week and clearing some HM's pre 4.2 after being formed in February, I actually do think we have some decent raiders. That HPala has been with us almost from the beginning and he's the healer I trust the most tbh.

    The HPala and the Disc Priest know both of our shield tanks. They've healed them for months now, so if the Hpala still needs to adapt I'd indeed say it's rather fail.

    My conclusion right now is that it was a combined failure from the healing team and the tank. I too noticed that he didn't kept Demo Roar up, whereas I have a 99.9% up-time on mine. I too think that he could have used more than 2 abilities across the tries and that leads me to think that he actually still has some learning to do.

    After posting several things on our guild forum about what happened last night, our Hpala actually "came clean". He said that he the (friendly) competition between the healers had gotten to him a bit too much, that he was trying to impress by raid healing more and as a result didn't pay enough attention to our tank. At the same time we were missing our core Resto Shaman, making mana somewhat of an issue for him. He still insisted (as did the 2 other healers) that the Prot Warrior was taking more dmg.

    I'm also thinking what several of you have already mentioned, that the Warrior might have been using his CD's wrong. He did save all of them for the cat phase but even though he could have timed them wrong.

    Regarding the Fury Warrior using his Demo, we only brought him in, when I swopped to tank. We had to bench our Prot Warrior, since he has no viable OS. So there was actually only the Prot Warrior to do Demo Shout when he tanked and there was no Rallying Cry, until I went tank myself.

  9. #49
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    Prot Warriors have Rallying Cry as well, not just dps Warriors. I use it quite a bit actually unless there's something specific I need Last Stand for. Also there is no need to save cooldowns for Cat Phase, actually I find that i take less damage in Cat phase than I do in Scorpion phase.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by twopac187 View Post
    Prot Warriors have Rallying Cry as well, not just dps Warriors. I use it quite a bit actually unless there's something specific I need Last Stand for. Also there is no need to save cooldowns for Cat Phase, actually I find that i take less damage in Cat phase than I do in Scorpion phase.
    The Cat and his images hit much harder than the Scorpion, the only burst from the Scorpion comes from that fire damage. However his follow up melee swings will be far less dangerous than the melee of the Cat. That's why tanks save CDs for Cat phase, especially combined with healer movement it's the tank healing phase.

    As for when to use CDs on it, tell your warrior to pop them w/e the boss leaps and then walks back. Meaning for the second or two that he's taking damage from both the boss and the mirror image Cat that's when he's getting burst the hardest (and healer might be busy moving from the Cat leap). Certainly don't waste those CDs early in the phase either, save em for near the end when Cat leaps faster.

  11. #51
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    The biggest threat to tank survival is a transition to a scorp phase with seeds.Granted you don't take any damage while stunned, but the heals have to all start casting from scratch (assuming the don't have to run out due to a seed right away), so any cats that are up are going to have a big advantage.One way to deal with this is to have a shaman drop totems well clear of the raid, as these are not immune shielded, and the cats will run out after them, giving the heals a second or two to spool back up.Ofc, you could also just used shield wall or some other cd... or even have the tank hleap away before the stun then intervene / charge back in after.Also, make sure to demoshout and tclap the cats, not strictly required for each cat in the actual cat phase, but any that you will be taking into the scorp phase, for certain.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    After posting several things on our guild forum about what happened last night, our Hpala actually "came clean". He said that he the (friendly) competition between the healers had gotten to him a bit too much, that he was trying to impress by raid healing more and as a result didn't pay enough attention to our tank. At the same time we were missing our core Resto Shaman, making mana somewhat of an issue for him. He still insisted (as did the 2 other healers) that the Prot Warrior was taking more dmg.
    This is a hard thing to "enforce", but my old guild used to have a "no recount open" policy and were pretty hard core about it. Linking a recount in any way (even in a whisper) was a huge no-no.

    While it can generate some "healthy competition", more often that not it leads people to meter padding in ways that are detrimental do the actual goal of the raid: killing the boss and progressing.

    I'd have a talk with your healers about this, and tell them you need them to focus as a team. If they're gamers, they'll respond and your raid will do much better.

    --- For your prot warrior, (as one myself), not tracking your debuffs is a little mind boggling, as is the bizzare threat rotation. It sounds like basic inexperience. I'd make him get a tracker for the debuffs (I use Power Auras for everything because I'm a customization nerd). I'd also send him to fully study some of the prot warrior guides out there. Basically if he wants to be a "starting" tank, he needs to pick up his game. After he does some homework, I'd quiz him on which tanking cooldowns are better for the various scenarios, and why. If he can't answer those kinds of questions, back to the books (and the bench) for him.

    Good luck.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by jason1975 View Post
    This is a hard thing to "enforce", but my old guild used to have a "no recount open" policy and were pretty hard core about it. Linking a recount in any way (even in a whisper) was a huge no-no.

    While it can generate some "healthy competition", more often that not it leads people to meter padding in ways that are detrimental do the actual goal of the raid: killing the boss and progressing.

    I'd have a talk with your healers about this, and tell them you need them to focus as a team. If they're gamers, they'll respond and your raid will do much better.
    Come on now, enforcing a no recount linking policy? Are raiders little kids now that need to be told what addons they're allowed to use or something? Especially considering how much real time information recount can provide. That's just silly imo, I would never raid without recount. Calling people out if they don't do their job should be enough to make them start doing their job, and recount is how you figure out who to call out mid-raid.

  14. #54
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    As a Prot warrior myself I always feel a little bit more vulnerable than the other tanks to magic damage.

    We have the flat defensive stance damage reduction which is 10%, Bears have Natural Reaction which is 18% and typically I find that they focus more on stamina with gemming than warrior tanks, that favor mastery that bit more (the comment about bears is from experience and maybe isnt the norm I havent checked).

    This means warriors have to focus more on the timing of shield block and other cooldowns to make burst magic attacks less deadly.

    Just a basic example the Searing Shadows debuff on the Occu'thar fight in Baradin Hold takes me pretty low on health in comparison to other tanks if I dont time shield block to reduce the damage.

    Now in refrence to Majordomo.

    Any difference in health pool and the higher passive magic damage reduction probably helped alot during the stressful scorpion phase and the warrior not debuffing will have bosted the cat phase damage.

    Other fails such as standing in fire just makes things worse.

    1 final point, the cat phase for the tank is alot about positioning.

    He maybe fine on this one but keep an eye out if he tanks it again.

    Make sure he isnt taking hits from behind by not adapting to the movement of the boss and the spawning cats.

    Edit:

    Just seen druids can also spec into Perseverance which at 3 points, reduces magic damage by 6%.

    That adds up to quite a big difference in magic damage taken.

    Frenzied Regen can also be glyphed to boost healing by 30% which is going to mean than healers bombing the big heals on the tank shouldnt have much trouble keeping the tank up and it gives the appearance than it doesnt take many heals to top you off.
    Last edited by mmoc281d80d4a4; 2011-07-25 at 11:49 PM.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by jason1975 View Post
    This is a hard thing to "enforce", but my old guild used to have a "no recount open" policy and were pretty hard core about it. Linking a recount in any way (even in a whisper) was a huge no-no.

    While it can generate some "healthy competition", more often that not it leads people to meter padding in ways that are detrimental do the actual goal of the raid: killing the boss and progressing.

    I'd have a talk with your healers about this, and tell them you need them to focus as a team. If they're gamers, they'll respond and your raid will do much better.

    --- For your prot warrior, (as one myself), not tracking your debuffs is a little mind boggling, as is the bizzare threat rotation. It sounds like basic inexperience. I'd make him get a tracker for the debuffs (I use Power Auras for everything because I'm a customization nerd). I'd also send him to fully study some of the prot warrior guides out there. Basically if he wants to be a "starting" tank, he needs to pick up his game. After he does some homework, I'd quiz him on which tanking cooldowns are better for the various scenarios, and why. If he can't answer those kinds of questions, back to the books (and the bench) for him.

    Good luck.
    That just sounds like someone got their feelings hurt for being bad so they instituted a policy of don't show, don't tell. I can understand not spamming meters in a raid but talking about dps, healing, tank damage, interrupts, all the important things is healthy for a raid. We have a specific channel for those who want to spam their meters in can join. Otherwise most of us have it running.

    I can slam my head against a wall all night for 32 attempts until people finally figure it out. Or you can identify the issues, talk to people like adults and figure it out. Much like Danish is doing.

    ---------- Post added 2011-07-26 at 01:23 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sifer View Post

    Just seen druids can also spec into Perseverance which at 3 points, reduces magic damage by 6%.

    That adds up to quite a big difference in magic damage taken.

    Frenzied Regen can also be glyphed to boost healing by 30% which is going to mean than healers bombing the big heals on the tank shouldnt have much trouble keeping the tank up and it gives the appearance than it doesnt take many heals to top you off.
    85% of the damage is physical, melee damage. This is the case for most fights. It helps being a bear but it's not the game breaker like you may think. Melee damage reduction is still the primary focus.
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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    My conclusion right now is that it was a combined failure from the healing team and the tank. I too noticed that he didn't kept Demo Roar up, whereas I have a 99.9% up-time on mine. I too think that he could have used more than 2 abilities across the tries and that leads me to think that he actually still has some learning to do.
    Demo shout isn't what was wiping you. Your logs clearly show both tanks taking roughly the same damage. Your Cat Druid would have out up TClap and the Ret Paladin would have had up Vindication (?) pretty much always.

    Should he have been using more abilities? Sure. He's tunnel visioning like a pro. He should still use Demo Shout, Rend and especially Cleave on the Cat Phase. But that's not what wiped you.

    So what happened? Why the wipes?

    Paladin sucked and stopped healing the tank (As you said, trying to raid heal more)
    Tank is "Taking more damage"
    Tank gets dropped
    Paladin, worried now actually starts healing.

    Your tank has things still to learn for sure, but your problem is your Paladin.

    EDIT: To be honest your Warrior tank got really hard done by here.

    He gets to wipe for 2 hours
    Then he gets dropped. Told he takes too much damage (Massive ego slam here)

    And he wasn't even doing anything majorly wrong. He has a real cause for complaint. To be insulted and removed from the raid (even amicably as I assume it was) because one of your Healers is a failure is pretty galling.

  17. #57
    start healing him

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ceria View Post
    Demo shout isn't what was wiping you. Your logs clearly show both tanks taking roughly the same damage. Your Cat Druid would have out up TClap and the Ret Paladin would have had up Vindication (?) pretty much always.
    Vindication is a Prot Paladin talent requiring 20 points in the Prot tree, meaning you cannot get it if you are not Prot. I'm sure Demo Shout is not the only thing that wiped them, however saying the Warrior was doing his job well is an over-statement. Suggestions have been made both here and in the Warrior specific thread ad nauseum, and I'm sure that the OP has brought some of this to the warrior's attention. Bottom line is that regardless of the two debuffs being available from other classes and specs likely in attendance, the onus still falls on the tank to make sure they are applied. Across an entire fight, those 10% and 20% reductions in damage add up a TON. As stated before he didn't Demo Shout even once all night, and only Thunder Clapped (if for nothing else refreshing Rend to save a gcd) twice ALL night. That is certainly not performing to reasonable standards in my book.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by twopac187 View Post
    Vindication is a Prot Paladin talent requiring 20 points in the Prot tree, meaning you cannot get it if you are not Prot. I'm sure Demo Shout is not the only thing that wiped them, however saying the Warrior was doing his job well is an over-statement. Suggestions have been made both here and in the Warrior specific thread ad nauseum, and I'm sure that the OP has brought some of this to the warrior's attention. Bottom line is that regardless of the two debuffs being available from other classes and specs likely in attendance, the onus still falls on the tank to make sure they are applied. Across an entire fight, those 10% and 20% reductions in damage add up a TON. As stated before he didn't Demo Shout even once all night, and only Thunder Clapped (if for nothing else refreshing Rend to save a gcd) twice ALL night. That is certainly not performing to reasonable standards in my book.
    Oh right, yeah. My bad about the Demo Shout I thought Ret Paladins brought that but I guess not. There's no reason he should be TClapping though, it's not saving a GCD refreshing Rend because the Feral Druid will be applying Infected Wounds the entire time.

    This is less true for Druids and Paladins that apply most of their debuffs naturally but especially when tanking on a DK you always try make sure someone else is applying the debuff for you, since you sacrifice mitigation to get it up. Warriors only sacrifice rage/gcd's which aren't as important but there's still no need to throw them away.

    He should have Demo Shouted, that's a big failue. But he also wasn't taking significantly more damage than the Druid. He didn't play perfect but he wasn't the cause of the wipe and didn't deserve to be replaced for it (while the Paladin that was, most likely knowningly, wiping them stays and gets VP/Loot).

    Hell, he was dying in Scorpion Phase (How do you even lose a tank in that phase?) that alone screams to me that this is a healer failure.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ceria View Post
    Oh right, yeah. My bad about the Demo Shout I thought Ret Paladins brought that but I guess not. There's no reason he should be TClapping though, it's not saving a GCD refreshing Rend because the Feral Druid will be applying Infected Wounds the entire time.
    Do all DPS cats even spec into Infected Wounds? It doesn't increase DPS, it's just a snare. He really should be TClaping and Demo Shouting.

    But yes the healer(s) are just as much to blame. I will mention though that you can't judge how easy a tank is to heal based on overall damage taken meters. The bear took about 4% less overall damage but with a few changes in CD usage he could be twice as easy to heal. That's one thing we cannot really know since we can't tell where the CDs were poped.

    But anyway, for emphasis: It's a mixed fault of both the tank and healers. Nobody should get away blameless, apply them debuffs and stop trying to meter pad as a tank healer.

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