Advice needed to improve our Ret Pally's DPS

[Kenjji]

Why doesn't he come here himself, the fact YOU have to ask for him just shows how much he exactly cares about his performance, this is an obvious case of someone who has absolutely not a single clue what hes doing, melee as #1 damage ability, ~40% uptime on inquisition, wrong usage of cooldowns, just replace him with any random dps untill he comes her himself and asks how to improve

[anthell]

why do people kill rageface so early again?

when i did it on the 1st week... we have both dogs die together at around 33% and burn shannox... has normal mode strat changes?

[Isorn]

why do people kill rageface so early again?

Just a different strat to keep people from getting face-raped. Our guild actually does the same thing and as a ret, I agree it's annoying when you're chasing him around for half the fight. I'd rather be on a less-mobile target as melee.

Still, I don't even have 2 piece T-12 yet (or heroic BWD/BOT gear) and I'm able to put out over 21K DPS as ret in Shannox (although in 25 man). The ret in question strikes me as somebody who either just picked up the class/spec or else if he's played ret for a long time, he's simply somebody who doesn't really care that much about playing his character to its potential.

[Alorn]

His helm is a TANK helm

His helm is fine, unless it's changed since this thread was started. It may be a tank helm, but expertise and mastery are also perfect DPS stats for paladin. I'm obviously not commenting on gem and enchant, but the helm alone.

[Reith]

We actually use the exact same strat (starting and killing rageface) and the highest I ended up with on a kill is 21.6k dps at ilvl 360 with normal akirus. I also use that helm, so there's nothing wrong with that, but I'm gonna replace it with my ruthless pvp helm since I'm rolling with the pvp gloves anyway and I don't have 4-set T11.

[Isorn]

I also use that helm, so there's nothing wrong with that, but I'm gonna replace it with my ruthless pvp helm since I'm rolling with the pvp gloves anyway and I don't have 4-set T11.

I actually am currently using the ruthless helm and gloves until I get the Alysrazor or Ragnaros helm drops simply because I was never fortunate to win any tier 11 helm with all the pallies, locks, and priests in our guild. I will say using the Ruthless combination did increase my dps and is a stop-gap measure you can take if you bother farming the conquest points and don't have a T11 helm you require for a set bonus. I don't plan to use it long term, but it works great for now.

[Lolzzor]

Tell him to mash crusader strike all the time, and keep inquisition up (tell him to get need to know otherwise so he can track it) and ask him to try, since you can't raid for 10/25 people alone.

[Tylium]

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions! I'll certainly ask him to pop into the thread. I hope he can improve a lot otherwise we'll have to replace him.

[drakolatter]

Might even be how he's rotating his dps skills as others have said. A good place to start looking at rotations is http://www.noxxic.com/paladin/retribution/dps-rotation it's probably not the optimal rotation but its a good start. In any case crusader strike should be used a lot. Other than that, suggest EJ. Another good link for optimal stat's regarding gemming, enchanting and reforging is http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow

[Jonuts]

5) He's over the expertise hardcap. Reforge.

*Softcap. 52 is hard cap. Also, all his expertise *IS* reforged. Complaints about that should be directed to gearing choices, which can't exactly be changed at the drop of a hat. In T11, if you're human, it's almost impossible to be right on your expertise cap, because whats readily available comes with *ALOT* of Expertise. You can say X >>> Y all day, but if all you have access to is X, your just running your mouth.

His gearing is only unacceptable *IF* he has unrestricted access to better. Just because I lose the roll on an upgrade doesn't mean I'm a crap player and need to L2P.


Anyways, I'm going to go against the grain here. CLC ret? Don't use it, it's crap. More important that he practices his rotation and learns how to play properly. Which I can't use WoL to judge worth a damn, except on a patchwerk style fight. Ooh, someone had more CS's in less time than he did. Who cares? I've played the "Lets chase rageface all over the F***ING PLACE game as ret. You lose out *ALOT* on DPS doing so. If I had some Logs, I'd compare my CS's while chasing rageface to his CS's while chasing rage face. The only comparisons that should happen are from people doing the same job. If you're on Shannox the whole time, your numbers are meaningless as a comparison to someone chasing dogs. Hajime posted his higher number of CS in less time, using the same strat. Now the question is, are Hajime's numbers based on luck, skill, or better positioning strategy in the raid? If Hajime did less chasing and spent more time on target due to RNG, or better positioning, it may not be Bublabars fault. If Your paladin isn't chasing him all over firelands, then it is his fault.

Next, he used GotAK once on a fight he could have used it twice. The important question is, when did he use it? I'm sorry, but overall DPS on Rageface, Shannox @>30% and Riplimb is pointless. Wasting a 5m CD on those means you're retarded and need to be slapped, unless you know it'll be back up by the time you get to the burn phase. Using GotAK on either dog is fairly pointless too, because it's going to be heavily wasted. Yes, you *CAN* pop it at the beginning and beat in ragefaces face with it and from the looks of the log, have enough time to get it back up for the burn phase. More DPS is better on all parts of the fight, but it's *MOST* important on the burnphase to kill Shannox before the soft enrage.

Next, we come to traps. How much time on target gets lost to his DPS target being trapped? They take a bit to break out. So again, you lose out on crusader strikes, and potentially can't keep as high inquisiton uptime (Afterall, why refresh it to stare at a block of frozen dog?), and might even lose an AoW proc out of it if you missed half of it to mashing more important stuff and missed the second half because the dog is frozen. Popping an AoW proc on a frozen dog is just padding meters, nothing more. Without sitting over his shoulder and watching him play, I can't make a judgement worth a damn off a WoL with a Melee class handed such a crap job.

Overall DPS on Shannox for a melee that runs around and hits dogs (Which my group does too, successfully) is going to be random, based around how much chasing you have to do, how much time the dog is frozen, how often the dog hits immolation traps, and we get out RNG fail on it as paladins as well. DP proc's do nothing if the dog gets frozen. Post up logs of a kill of something easier to judge, or leave him on Shannox the entire time. To get around the randomness on rageface, you have to be fairly tightly packed. But this runs into issues of too many traps in too small of an area. Pack too tightly, and someone is going screw up eventually and it'll probably hurt more.

Inquisition uptime is *EXTREMELY* low. Chasing dogs, you're going to lose inquisiton uptime unless you're lucky, or retarded and refresh it to chase a dog or stare at a frozen dog. You will *NOT* lose that much inquisition uptime however. Thats the sort of uptime you'd expect from a paladin walking over the freeze traps. Repeatedly. For fun. If the low uptime isn't his fault, we're talking serious strategy or RNG fail, probably both at once to get that bad. So first, check yourself. Are you using some really retarded raid strategy, like "lets go explore firelands while fighting shannox!" or "Lets spread out all the DPS and healers in a 60 yard box!". If not, it's most likely him playing poorly.

why do people kill rageface so early again?

Because he's annoying, and Shannox's mini-enrage is easy to deal.


All in all, the pathetic DPS seems a combination of 1: A job that is going to tank your DPS and 2: Being a crappy Paladin. If you direct him to EJ, and he didn't improve, replace him. On a side note, tell him to use Power Auras (Or something equivalent) to track his inquisition. I had alot of trouble keeping that buff up properly until I got it sitting there in my face with a timer. Will it fix everything? No. But it will fix inquisition, if he cares enough. If he doesn't care, nothing will fix him.

[Requital]

Hi,
I'd very much appreciate it if the paladin community could take a look at this log: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0gst0u7jp3anrla4/sum/damageDone/?s=7133&e=7621

As you can see, the DPS across the board is very poor but I thought I'd post in each of the class forums to get a more specific response for each player concerned. The mage and hunter are not a part of the core team so I'm not particularly concerned about them.

Here's his armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...labar/advanced

What is our pally doing wrong to have such low dps? Can you tell if his rotation is sub-optimal? What could he do to improve? Also, can you guys recommend addons / macros etc that would make his job easier for him?

We're currently having real problems with a lack of DPS. We're giving them one last chance to improve before we start looking for replacements so if there's anything glaringly obvious that would help him, I'm sure he'd appreciate it.

Thanks.

You picked the worst fight possible to show case someones flaws. As for what the Ret is on it doesn't matter if he is on Rage or Shannox in fact it makes no difference the goal in the end is to have them all die at close to the same time.

Whatever strat you employ is fine don't listen to people telling you otherwise. Your Rets issues are his CD,s Rotations and priority on keeping things up. But Shannox is a terrible fight. More than anything he needs to learn about the class and spec before he can be a solid DPS he needs to know his priority levels.

Either have him speak with a Ret directly one on one for some quick information about what he should be doing to you should speak with one and then relay the information to him. Personally I'd tell him to speak with someone in a one on one scenario don't send him to some forums to get ripped apart. Everyone has to start somewhere.

[Isorn]

I was mistaken in thinking he could reforge away more expertise as I didn't take the time to review all his gear and was focusing more on the log of his fight. So my apologies there for that oversight Bublabar if you're out there.

As for the expertise cap, as a melee DPS, I believe Jonuts is referring to the tanking expertise caps for someone who fights the majority of the combat in front of the boss (or target). As a ret, you'll always be aiming to attack from behind so you won't have to worry about parries and should only have to worry about removing dodges from the table. I have no idea what other gear Bublabar has available, but ultimately aiming for 23 expertise (if he's using a sword or mace) or 26 expertise (axe) is optimal. Given I have no idea what gear he has available, I'll just assume he'll have to eat the extra expertise for now.

As for the fight itself, it's actually pretty easy to keep inquisition up during that fight even if you're chasing Rageface, DPSing crystals, or whatever. We have a priority system and while some rets may not need something like CLCRET or CLCINFO, in my experience, it's helped tremendously when helping a new ret learn the system. CLCINFO can be a bit daunting at first which is why people tend to recommend CLCRET to rets looking for help with their ability priorities. Whether he uses something like CLASSTIMER or CLCRET or whatever to monitor his inquisition uptime, it'll help his DPS if he has something that alerts him that he needs to put inquisition up again.

Really, chasing dogs sucks, but given his trinket and 2 piece T-12 set bonus among other gear, I don't see why Bublabar shouldn't be able to pull higher DPS and I think he can. Was this his first attempt at this fight? That could possibly explain the lack of CS and TV's landing. And by lack, I mean in Shannox fight of similar length where I chased Rageface, I had twice as many TV's and 2.5 times as many CS's land. I also had 94.4% inquisition uptime despite breaking Rageface out of crystal prison traps.

What I'm saying is that it's feasible to keep inquisition up despite the less-than-optimal nature of the strategy for melee DPS. Besides, I just looked at the Beth'tilac attempt and I didn't notice Inquisition up at all for him during that attempt.

Obviously the original poster has concern for his fellow raider and had reason to come here and post. I looked at the logs for the Beth'tilac attempts the previous week as well and saw similar issues in that fight. Odd cooldown usage, poor inquisition uptime...

Oh, if you use Gotak early in the fight, it should be back up again with plenty of time to spare by the time your raid blows heroism/bloodlust/time warp during the burn phase.

Like Requital said, we all have to start somewhere and it's good to have feedback about what you can do better. I know that personally I ask my guildmates to analyze my play and give me tips where I could use them. One-on-one help does tend to be best, but forums can also provide some help here and there. And giving him some tips is better than just saying it's a crappy fight, it is what it is. Looking at the other fight logs, it's apparent it's more than just the nature of the fight strategy.

Here's to hoping he learns something hopefully.

[Caio]

His helm is fine, unless it's changed since this thread was started. It may be a tank helm, but expertise and mastery are also perfect DPS stats for paladin. I'm obviously not commenting on gem and enchant, but the helm alone.

not really...the lack of STR is huuuge on this helm

[Reith]

not really...the lack of STR is huuuge on this helm

That's a non-issue. That will only make you lose ~30 dps. It's nothing compared to being inefficient at his specialization, which is what the real problem is. Please don't cloud this fact with inconsequential gear choices that are out of his control.

[Deleted]

Make the poor fellow re-roll holy before he hurts someone (Not sure how he'd do that though..)

[Tylium]

Overall DPS on Shannox for a melee that runs around and hits dogs (Which my group does too, successfully) is going to be random, based around how much chasing you have to do, how much time the dog is frozen, how often the dog hits immolation traps, and we get out RNG fail on it as paladins as well. DP proc's do nothing if the dog gets frozen. Post up logs of a kill of something easier to judge, or leave him on Shannox the entire time.

We didn't have time before the raid last night to inform Bublabar of the changes he needs to make to his rotation etc. However, we finally got the Shannox kill and this time we allowed Bublabar to stay on Shannox while the rest of us killed Rageface first. You can see the log here: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/w...?s=1839&e=2337

He actually hasn't been pointed to this thread yet because the raid leader doesn't want to hurt his feelings. I suspect we will soon though because the advice here is invaluable and he needs to face the music imo. It's clear that he needs to tighten up his rotation a lot, get addons to help him keep track of Inq, and optimise his gear choices. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to analyse the logs and give recommendations!

[Deleted]

nice input thx

---------- Post added 2011-07-27 at 01:22 AM ----------

thx for input but have to say love my cs hit it everytime i can so dont now how u get to hit your more than me but would like to know ??

[artemishunter1]

Hi,
I'd very much appreciate it if the paladin community could take a look at this log: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0gst0u7jp3anrla4/sum/damageDone/?s=7133&e=7621

As you can see, the DPS across the board is very poor but I thought I'd post in each of the class forums to get a more specific response for each player concerned. The mage and hunter are not a part of the core team so I'm not particularly concerned about them.

Here's his armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...labar/advanced

What is our pally doing wrong to have such low dps? Can you tell if his rotation is sub-optimal? What could he do to improve? Also, can you guys recommend addons / macros etc that would make his job easier for him?

We're currently having real problems with a lack of DPS. We're giving them one last chance to improve before we start looking for replacements so if there's anything glaringly obvious that would help him, I'm sure he'd appreciate it.

Thanks.

To tell you the truth ret pally dps is horrible right now. movement hurts us too much. our rotation is proc based. to play well, you will need to use the cds in unison. which u can rarely do in a movement heavy fights. My advise to you will be bench him if you really need the dps.

[Deleted]

u are right if my ex is ic i cast should i not ??

---------- Post added 2011-07-27 at 01:27 AM ----------

clret instaled cant wait to use it thx to u an all who gave that positiv feedback

---------- Post added 2011-07-27 at 01:28 AM ----------

sorry to say u lost me there vig

---------- Post added 2011-07-27 at 01:29 AM ----------

ok thx for super input i will not buy th4at again

---------- Post added 2011-07-27 at 01:34 AM ----------

super i like people who are helpfull insted of pointing fingers thx sir u are a real hero in this game (bow before u )

[deathsage]

tell him to get clcret addon and use tht ability wht the addon shows him to not cast exorcism again and again

---------- Post added 2011-07-27 at 06:38 AM ----------

also the trinket hes using the one he got from molten front quests sucks for a paladin he should get license to slay which costs 1650 jp and gives more strength then this and also hit which if ur capped u can reforge to mastery