Page 1 of 6
1
2
3
... LastLast
  1. #1

    Firelands Raid 10 vs 25 Comparison, BlizzCon Site, European Bnet Invitational, Comics

    Firelands Raid 10 vs 25 Comparison
    DREAM Paragon posted an interesting comparison of the Firelands Raid 10 and 25-Man fights on their site. This is probably a good read for guilds wondering if it's time to switch to 10-man because things are feeling harder, and all the 10-man raids out there can most likely steal their setup if they feel like they're struggling on something.

    Raid Setups @ http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/

    DREAM Paragon's conclusion on differences between 10-man and 25-Man
    It's immediately obvious that there's a much greater degree of clarity and control in the 10-mans. Thinking logically, this should help quite a lot with the learning curve and avoiding mistakes, but that's not really something we could say our little skirmish 'proved' in practice. We already knew what the encounters were about and what the flame to avoid looked like -- relearning to accommodate differences is very different than learning from scratch.

    A theme of more significance that you can clearly see in the three harder bosses for this tier is that the dps requirement is much too lenient in 10-man. This means that you don't really have to cut the amount of healers, which ensures relaxed gameplay for the healers while about half of their 25-man brethren are taking beta blockers just to be able to see clearly. The other half is naturally on the bench, sitting out for the extra dps. Perhaps this is a backlash from what we've been hearing about T11, but it really doesn't work as it is.

    Proper tuning has repercussions though, since class balance has a huge impact when you're forced into two-heal and solo heal situations. And that's not even a stretch -- don't be surprised if you see a druid solo healing Ragnaros 10 hc before this tier is over. Might or might not happen, but at least it seemed plausible enough. Try doing that with a shaman.

    This leads us to the fact that the gap between an optimal setup and the wrong setup seems to be quite a bit larger in 10-man than in 25s. If the encounters are really hard, you'll need a proper setup. Guilds shooting for a world first should always be expected to come up with one, but those below, the ones without alt raids, will be left hanging. If the encounters are tuned for the 'average' setup, guilds who can afford the optimal one will steamroll through them.

    If we were really playing 10-man, we *would* have a close to optimal setup. Even right now, scaled down from 25 to 10, we would have about 14 players and 30-ish fully raid-capable characters. The difficulty and tuning we're concerned about is for that scenario, not for the level where you're simply enjoying the game with the hand you've been dealt.


    For more information and comparison of 10/25-Man modes for all the bosses, check out the full article on DREAM Paragon's website.


    New BlizzCon Site Now Open
    Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
    We’ve just opened up a brand-new BlizzCon community site for you to find all of the latest BlizzCon news, discussions, and more. Make yourself at home on the new community forums, check out the latest BlizzCon updates, and share news items via Twitter, Facebook, and more. As we get closer to the show, the new BlizzCon site will be your headquarters for panel schedules, lists of activities to look for at the convention, tournament updates, and lots more, so be sure to check in often.

    Blog comments, forum posting, and profile management are only available to those with an active StarCraft II or World of Warcraft license.

    The Info-Packed Website for the 2011 European Battle.net Invitational is Now Live!
    Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
    From today, we’ll be supplying you with lots of mouthwatering updates, information and treats on this dedicated event website leading up to the big weekend. Browse the site and discover the free HD live stream, detailed information about the event, and much more.

    Get into the right mindset with classic matches and pictures of last year’s event. We’ll continue to add more content over the coming weeks, so by August 6, when the action is about to start, you’ll find everything you need to know about the 2011 Battle.net Invitational in one place:


    • Tournament information: What is it, when, why, and where? Any more questions?
    • Travel information: Do you want to soak up the atmosphere at the Invitational in person? We’ll tell you how to get there
    • Video playlist: Find classic replays and the newest matches conveniently listed right on the front page
    • Twitter feed: Stay up to date with all Battle.net Invitational tweets
    • Facebook integration: Like, share and follow the event together with your friends
    • Blog overview: Missed a blog update? See all related articles about the event at a glance

    Coming soon:


    • Player profiles: Who will be fighting for glory and prize money?
    • Media section: Browse pictures of past events and watch videos of the matches – stay tuned for current media
    • Brackets: What legendary encounters are you about to witness?
    • Tournament schedule: Know what’s happening when
    • HD live stream: Watch the combatants battling it out live on stage, professionally shoutcasted and broadcast right into your home

    So, are you ready for juicy eSports action? Our website will provide you with everything you need to enjoy the 2011 European Battle.net Invitational in Warsaw, Poland. Make sure to stop by regularly in the coming days to get warmed up for the big showdown!

    Thrall: Twilight of the Aspects -- Excerpt Three
    Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
    Written by New York Times bestselling author Christie Golden, the new novel Thrall: Twilight of the Aspects is now on store shelves. We're pleased to present a series of three excerpts from the novel for your reading enjoyment.

    Read the third excerpt below.



    Comics
    Dark Legacy Comics #298 and Teh Gladiators #256 + #257 are out!


  2. #2
    Haha DLC... legend.

    Also not surprised to see Paragon's conclusion leaning into that direction.
    Last edited by Xcuse; 2011-07-26 at 05:12 AM.

  3. #3
    I'm just waiting 'til they release the entire book for free.

  4. #4
    Before people read into the "10 MAN IZ EZ MOAD", DREAM Paragon made it a point to say that it was only easy if a 10-man raid has the player resources to switch out players for optimal specs/classes for certain fights. Hence why you'll find people on 10-man stuck on Beth'tilac because they have 2 paladin healers.

    Some specs are just outright disadvantaged when it comes to a role in some of these fights, and some can just breeze through it, and a lot of 10-man raiding guilds simply do not have the people to switch out an Arcane Mage for a Hunter, or a Holy Paladin for a resto Druid. Hence, probably why there is a percieved lenient DPS curve for 10-man.
    Last edited by greyghost; 2011-07-26 at 05:17 AM.

  5. #5
    I wonder how long it will take before the Shamans arrive screaming angrily about not being represented in ANY of the fights.Too bad to be honest. I miss my Shaman. It's all about Divine Light nowadays.

  6. #6
    10 man iz ez moad!!!!!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by greyghost View Post
    Before people read into the "10 MAN IZ EZ MOAD", DREAM Paragon made it a point to say that it was only easy if a 10-man raid has the player resources to switch out players for optimal specs/classes for certain fights. Hence why you'll find people on 10-man stuck on Beth'tilac because they have 2 paladin healers. Some specs are just outright disadvantaged when it comes to a role in some of these fights, and some can just breeze through it.
    All of the above is true, plus the gear disparity. Even with the same gear between 10 and 25 -- between having more gear drops per person from each boss on 25, and being a world first progression guild, Paragon has a full complement of characters in full heroic T11 gear. So they have one of every spec in great gear, without having the "well-geared good player with 'wrong' spec vs. 'right' spec with less gear/experience" problem that a LOT of 10-man guilds I've seen have. And the average 10-man raid is going to have less gear due to less drops per player when they did 10-man T11, and the average raid period is going to have less gear than Paragon anyway.

    TL;DR: Yeah, 10s are probably easier on the whole, but they're not a complete roflcaekwalk compared to 25s or anything. :P

  8. #8
    Clarity is an extremely important part of modern game design, it's actually sorely lacking in a lot of games however it is something Blizzard is usually quite amazing at. That said, strict game design and mass player environments rarely mix for any reason outside of novelty, which is clearly not good for something you're trying to tightly tune.

    I wouldn't be surprised to see 25-mans folded in the future, as they have quite low participation and design issues keep stacking, however Blizzard also HEAVILY buys into the status quo and could just as easily hang onto it no matter the damage it causes to the game, so who knows.
    Last edited by MapleMeringue; 2011-07-26 at 05:31 AM.

  9. #9
    Warchief Bantokar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Denmark/USA
    Posts
    2,037
    Still beating this dead horse... jeeez.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Elix View Post
    I wonder how long it will take before the Shamans arrive screaming angrily about not being represented in ANY of the fights.Too bad to be honest. I miss my Shaman. It's all about Divine Light nowadays.
    I miss my shaman as well. It's all about Rejuvenation nowdays for me

  11. #11
    In before zomg 5 ranged and only 1 melee.. Why am i not surprised.. And 2 of em are boomies.. wth..

  12. #12
    Herald of the Titans
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Tempest Keep
    Posts
    2,807

    Quote Originally Posted by Ohforfsake View Post
    In before zomg 5 ranged and only 1 melee.. Why am i not surprised.. And 2 of em are boomies.. wth..
    yup... Paragon isn't allowed to pick a composition that suits their needs best

  13. #13
    The Patient Berkhtar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Frankfurt / Germany
    Posts
    266
    Concerning heroic they are absolutely right. Concerning normals (I know that they are not that important for the "pro"s or "wannabe pro"s) 25m is much simpler. Simply due to the fact that the encounters are almost tuned for 18 people instead of 25. Fail as often as you want... as long as the remaining 18 are good players you will have success. In 10m you can compensate one death and even this is hard.

  14. #14
    Stood in the Fire
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    410
    10-man is easier. Is it even debatable?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by MapleMeringue View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised to see 25-mans folded in the future, as they have quite low participation and design issues keep stacking, however Blizzard also HEAVILY buys into the status quo and could just as easily hang onto it no matter the damage it causes to the game, so who knows.
    This is coming from someone who has played since vanilla, but never raided regularly after BC's release...but personally, I share the sentiment but for entirely different reasons. Something most players nowadays have never experienced, or conveniently forgotten, is that nearly all endgame content prior to the onslaught of 20+ player raids in response to the complaints of a very vocal 3-5% of players came in the form of 5- to 10-mans that could be PuG'ed by a group of competent players in greens.

    By competent I don't mean "yeah, I just solo kited the end boss when the rest of the group wiped on pull," I mean "yeah, I can kite Drakk", which was the simplest role in what used to be the most technically-demanding encounter in the game*. This was prior to the random dungeon finder and cross-server dungeons, when a player could build a reputation on a given server for good (or poor) competency or conduct and as a result, groups were much more selective of who was invited to participate.

    The post-BC design sentiment is overwhelmingly in favor of raiding guilds. Blizzard's been all over the place with implementing that, whether it's the harshly over-tuned BC-era raids which overrode their early attempts at genuine hybridization through reinforcing class roles and "raid optimization" that catered to no one but the "hardcore" 4%, the Wrath-era in which raids were little more than loot and achievement farms, or the Cataclysm-era which to this point seems to try to find a happy medium of the two yet somehow managed to create a harsher series of gear requirements and progression climbing than what was even found in the BC era. Through it all, the common factor is that once the player (very quickly) hits maximum level, the only progression paths are to join a guild and raid, run dungeons for VP/JP, farm gold and buy gear upgrades through the AH, or participate in PvP (which still at least requires pre-made groups and PvP guilds now AFAIK). Only one of those progression paths sees genuinely new, quality content released on a regular basis, let alone sufficient content for the game to stay fresh until the next release.

    Personally, I wish Blizzard would dump the 20+ raid category for anything but novelty value or truly endgame encounters (the final boss of an expansion cycle or encounters with major lore characters, for example) and refocus on 5- to 10-man dungeons that focus on mechanics, coordination, and player skill above gear checking. That's the way the game was on launch, and honestly it's most engaging and enjoyable point despite its numerous flaws. As I mentioned before, Drakkisath was the most difficult encounter in the game at one point* yet a group of players in random drop greens could wipe the floor with him if they knew the encounter and their role.

    * Up until AQ, anyhow. Exception made for certain fake-difficulty raid encounters which utilized random attributes or mechanics that were less about being a good player than not causing a wipe by being in the wrong place at the wrong time for any reason.

  16. #16
    No MLG backing this time?This thing is going to be a dry turd in the grass.Nobody is excited about seeing a priest, mage, and rogue cycle CC someone to boredom. ;/

  17. #17
    Going for the race means that you're sacrificing everything for it, so you have a broad roster of good players and replace the ones you need for the perfect setup. Anyway this is playing at top levels. If you go 10 man, it's realistically due to shortage of players. So many times you're stuck with a bad layout or you have missing buffs, thing that is very remote in a 25man enviroment. So 10man raids are tuned to be done even with not pefect setup, otherwise you'll need to build up the perfect roster and change players everytime. Given this, some bosses are still too easy. Talking about normal modes, we came from 25 man to a couple of 10man due to summer defections. But bosses we needed entire evenings to down, in 10 man we oneshotted them. Ok, we knew the fights, but they really feel way too easy. Even with people that never seen the boss.

  18. #18
    I love the lack of shamy in all the setups...

  19. #19
    @Eacaraxe im sry but you keep saying you want blizzard to focus on 5-10man content but keep referancing a 15man raid dungeon seems alittle off dont you think?

  20. #20
    10 mans easier than 25 mans? interesting statement considering they have better gear since they progressed in 25 man before trying 10 man, and they were free to pick up their best geared players and already knew to optimal setup and had their learning curve in 25 man. I lol'd really. To think people so skilled at the game would spew such nonsence only to further promote themselves kinda makes me sick.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •