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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by meroko View Post
    People who like facerolling will always hate new ret. The actual good ret paladins love it because its smart and fun. Now see if you can pick out the bad pallies in this post
    I've played Ret since back in BC even when it wasn't a very good spec at all. I still say that going back to the wrath rotation/feel would be a big step backwards and yet I dislike the new version of the spec almost as much. Not everyone who is really turned off by the new mechanics and general feel of the spec want everything to go back to the way it was in Wrath =P

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga Drill Breaker View Post
    still it brought us no good, in the end.
    I , for one, really HATE it that they somehow took away the feel of being unique...

    Many Blessings,
    Many Seals,
    Unique Aura effects ( + raid damage AND + Holy damage)
    Unique Judgement effects...
    Your icon depresses me a lot =/

    I'm with you on the loss of a lot of things we used to have though, like the Judgments. I really enjoyed having three different ones that you could choose between and it helped a lot with adding in some extra little things we could do to help people in any area of the game. The loss of seals wasn't a huge thing though considering that half of them were almost never used or were so situational that it didn't really matter much.

    I would say that my biggest complaint about the spec now is that it relies on CDs even more than it did previously and it just feels slow in general. You have to wait roughly 9-10 seconds at the -Least- to use one TV or to refresh a buff that shouldn't even honestly be there with how the system is. Using Holy wrath in a single target rotation is just silly since they removed DS for that very reason. Then throw in that half our abilities hit for fairly small amounts compared to most classes because they threw all of our damage into CS and TV and left the rest as small fillers.

    In the end it just makes me feel like a warrior in slow motion with a few extra spells tossed in. It's frustrating in pvp to not have a snare (especially in Sota) and it's frustrating in pve to have to try to keep up inquisition on trash that barely makes it past the second CS in non raid instances. I wish I could enjoy ret again like I did before (even in BC I enjoyed it more no matter how much lower I was compared to others) but since this is how they want the class to be this expansion I've just had to sideline my paladin I put a lot of effort into until the next big change to the spec.

  3. #143
    In pvp rets are outstanding, unrootable, rediculous burst, great healing...I mean what more could you ask for...
    Since when do roots not work on me? Oh, yea, I can spam cleanse, until I go oom, then end up rooted anyways. I can run for a few seconds with Freedom, until I get sheeped. Rediculous burst only when people are too foolish to spellsteal/dispel wings, or CC me into oblivion. Your burst is only usable in a situation where you don't really need it anymore, or your opponent is just made of fail. What could I ask for? Offensive pressure outside of cooldowns, or some form of dispel protection with cooldowns. You can take the healing. If I wanted to be your healer, I'd go Holy. Could totally go for a snare, instead of this seal of justice BS. Would be nice if it didn't have to reapplied every 4 seconds as well. Frankly, our time on target is pathetic, and seal of justice will wear off on your target if you get slowed/snared for any amount of time. Pretty much everyone has run-speed increases through talents or boot enchants, so we can be endlessly kited by folks without even being slowed/snared. A gap closer would be great. Long Arm of the Useless doesn't do crap for us really. I <3 DK's that deathgrip me. Pretty sad when being deathgripped is my most reliable gap closer! THAT is some BS too.

    Current class design completely sucks. Just as mindless (How retarded do you have to be to screw up using CS on cooldown, and whatever is available in between?) as wrath. Yea, I don't really come to WoW for great intellectual stimulation. If I wanted that, I'd go to college. Or play chess. I play WoW to socialize with friends across the country and plant my axe in someones face. Cata paladin design makes me miss BURNING CRUSADE Paladin design, let alone the smooth playing of Wrath. I can't tell if you guys are masochists are that desperate to have a pedestal to stand on to say "I'm better than you!" when you complain about how bad paladins only did 1k or so less than you in Wrath. Of course, in Wrath, 1k DPS was pretty significant (And poor Paladins generally performed more than just 1k under me). When I started raiding Naxx, 1k DPS would have been 20% of my DPS. When I left the country and had to quit the game, 1k DPS was roughly 15% of my DPS. Are you really telling me that being 15-20% better than someone else isn't better "enough" to show you're better? WTF do you want as our class mechanics? I never had a problem showing I was better than other Ret Paladins.

    Also, what really confuses me is this. Why do all our fillers have such total crap damage? Who the hell thought it was a good idea to put a meteor mechanic on HW? Seriously though, if the fillers didn't proc divine purpose, you could probably drop all of them and not lose more than 2k DPS. When I can dump most of my abilities and lose less than 10% of damage, something is wrong.

    1. Give Paladins Dual wield.
    I would *LOVE* this for style purposes. Doubt I'd ever use it though

    Improving Sanctity of Battle so that Haste has a greater effect on the CS cooldown, and making it a somewhat better stat.
    Even better! Make sanctity of battle reduce the CS cooldown *AND* The GCD of all abilities. That alone would upvalue haste instead of making this massive deadzone where haste only helps if you don't have 2 fillers to use (along with auto-attack and censure ticks). It would also make the hardcap completely unattainable. As is, it'll likely be attainable next tier.

    If you honestly want to make the case that WotLK Retribution did not have fewer elements to it that required skill, then I'd love to hear it.
    For those who don't know the class, they both played exactly the same. Press the button clcret tells you to press. Looks the same to me in skill requirement

    Not some "I got this rotation, and I know exactly what to press at any time", meaning, I truly enjoy a bit on the spot decision making.
    Not sure you understand the difference between "Simon says" and "Making a decision". It's like saying "traffic lights produce interesting decision making mechanics". No it doesn't. Either you're retarded and you run the red light, or you're not retarded and you stop for it. Decision making implies a lack of an obvious correct answer. We *HAVE* Obvious correct answers, ergo, it's simon says. When Simon says use TV, and you use judgement, it wasn't a failure of an interesting decision, it was a failure to follow simple instructions. For on the spot decision making, drive through LA traffic on the wrong side of the freeway. THAT is on the spot decision making.

    Remember when anyone who was even specced ret was laughed at?
    And at least I only had seal of casino at the time, instead of spec of casino.

    So in a nutshell, just let art of war make my Fol instant again and i'll be happy as a ret.
    I gotta admit, I miss that. But it really was pretty overpowered. Especially since it gave a HoT too.

    Any ret worth his salt runs clcret/clcinfo
    There ya go with generalizations. I personally find using clcret to be more of a PITA than learning to play.

  4. #144
    At least we got our aoe back Things could be better at single target department tho, i dont mind us being behind DKs and Wars by some 500ish DPS, but 2-3 k is really a bit too much, i dont see reason to make such a big gaps between clasess. Anyhow, with decent proc luck, we can pull decent damage now and then

  5. #145
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonuts View Post
    There ya go with generalizations. I personally find using clcret to be more of a PITA than learning to play.
    It's not a generalisation, you perform better with it than without. As such, every ret worth his salt uses it.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  6. #146
    i liked the Wrath Ret paladin, but i understand that they changed it. However if i could chose i would have gone for the Wrath version

    offtopickinda: i want hunters to go back to endgame wrath times aswell : /

  7. #147
    Dreadlord chalmerz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miguelcrespo85 View Post
    I do miss the old tree


    I miss it a lot too :`(
    'Mon the Scots!

  8. #148
    Herald of the Titans zcks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andraxion View Post
    Aren't paladins the main class that has been revamped every expansion?
    This ^ is true, but only if you actually consider the cataclysm changes to ret an actual revamp.

    In actuality what happened was they heavily reworked how holy worked, then added a few changes to how prot worked. Then they finally through some shit together in a hurry for ret so that they could launch the game on time.
    Then after release they did a myriad of bandaid fixes & number tweaks to ret which solved none of the core issues (like too much RNG, lack of a complete melee toolkit, need for baseline fillers, lack of ability to effectively close gaps, the fact you can effectively off heal & dps with the same spec (depending on luck) at the drop of a hat etc...), which in the end will all lead to the class (especially ret spec) needing another complete "revamp" yet again next expansion.

    This ^ isn't the first time it has happened either & will probably not be the last because each time around the management at blizzard has done the exact same 3 things.

    1: Rush the design team & not give them the proper time needed for fine tuning & changes.
    2: Not give relevant player feedback to the design team. (if they give them any at all it's to late to make changes).
    3: Refuse to let the design team implement the tools/mechanics they have said are a necessity for melee specs & hybrid classes.

    Each time they did these things because their "vision" of the paladin class is first & foremost a healer & secondly a tank, to put it simply they do not care enough about ret to let it see the dedicated resources needed for a real overhaul with forethought behind it.
    In their own words they see retribution spec as a true melee healer hybrid & that vision does not include tools such as a stance/presence/form system or reliable gap closing mechanics (even though the designers have said such tools/mechanics are a necessity for balance among melee's & hybrids) & if lacking such tools/mechanics means ret cannot be balanced properly because the designers cant figure a way out then that means they wont be balanced properly.
    The way balancing for WOW PVP works is allot like American politics.
    1: Be lazy & ignore problems till the yelling is so loud your cant concentrate.
    2: Refuse to do the things you have Said need to be done, then make up reasons why they cannot be done.
    3: Lay the blame for problems on someone else even when it's your fault because you did all of the above.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Farrago View Post
    wtb wotlk ret back
    this. the biggest reason why we cant have our sustained dps can be buffed is because of sanctified wrath. the use of HoW under AW makes our burst too strong in combination with zealotry. revert the Sanctified wrath talent back to the WoTLK model and buff judgement, make it or DS generate a holy power, then we're better off than where we are now.

  10. #150
    IMO... Crusader shouldn't have a CD and it should be a weaker. That'd be a good enough change.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by zcks View Post
    This ^ is true, but only if you actually consider the cataclysm changes to ret an actual revamp.

    In actuality what happened was they heavily reworked how holy worked, then added a few changes to how prot worked. Then they finally through some shit together in a hurry for ret so that they could launch the game on time.
    Then after release they did a myriad of bandaid fixes & number tweaks to ret which solved none of the core issues (like too much RNG, lack of a complete melee toolkit, need for baseline fillers, lack of ability to effectively close gaps, the fact you can effectively off heal & dps with the same spec (depending on luck) at the drop of a hat etc...), which in the end will all lead to the class (especially ret spec) needing another complete "revamp" yet again next expansion.
    Pretty sure they designed Holy Power for Retribution first, and then decided to give it to all paladins.

  12. #152
    Herald of the Titans zcks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kavelos View Post
    Pretty sure they designed Holy Power for Retribution first, and then decided to give it to all paladins.
    They implemented the concept of it for ret first yes, however after the initial build that didn't work they started throwing all kinds of ideas around for how ret could work with it & were never allowed to fine tune any of them because they were on a deadline. Then while ret was getting massive changes constantly they proceeded to fine tune holy & prot holy power mechanics because they worked.


    Hence ret design & development was rushed & was never allocated the proper time needed for testing & fine tuning.
    Then after release the rotation was never fine tuned, numbers were just "tweaked" & the mastery changed (with the old one baked into the new divine purpose talent). The reason for not doing further work on the rotation, adding new fillers & getting rid of the RNG ? Well its because were not in beta anymore & they don't want to drastically change the rotation or do another overhaul mid expansion.


    Like I said before, if they would simply allocate the proper time needed for design, fine tuning, testing & feedback (while allowing the design team to implement the tools/mechanics they admit are needed) this whole mess would have never happened.

    This happened before back in 3.0, luckily they had a bit more time to work with ret then before release & realized it could be solved by a simple change that would not have to adverse of an effect.

    And lastly it will probably happen again because they still consider the spec to be not worth the time/resources & because their "vision" (outdated relic that it is) does not allow the class to have the tools/mechanics the designers have said it needs to reach a more balanced state.
    The way balancing for WOW PVP works is allot like American politics.
    1: Be lazy & ignore problems till the yelling is so loud your cant concentrate.
    2: Refuse to do the things you have Said need to be done, then make up reasons why they cannot be done.
    3: Lay the blame for problems on someone else even when it's your fault because you did all of the above.

  13. #153
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Zcks, do you have any sources for that crap you are throwing around?

    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42 View Post
    Which part do you like? Being completely reliant on luck to have a decent number of buttons to push? Having a dumbed down version of a combo point system?
    I think it's better than the combo-point system which counts points on the target only.
    It makes sense for a paladin to have holy power.
    We aren't reliant on luck any more than other classes, I really hate that stupid QQ.
    If you want a 100% static rotation, than you should play another game.

    I'm being sarcastic, but also serious.... I cannot fathom why one would look at the present design and think it's a good design.

    I don't doubt that you have fun with it.... but I don't understand why. So far as I can tell, the only thing even slightly challenging about ret is when you get a lot of procs at the same time and need to know what to hit next, a task that isn't really all that hard (and that assumes you don't cheat and install clcret to remove even that aspect of the class).
    If you need clc-ret to tell you what to do, you aren't in the position to discuss the rotation at all :')
    And our rotation is not hard? Siigh...

  14. #154
    Herald of the Titans zcks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Zcks, do you have any sources for that crap you are throwing around?
    You mean besides the painfully obvious ?

    They have gone on record saying they have always had the most trouble balancing paladins out of all the classes, so what do they do time & time again for each expansion beta ? Well they always schedule paladins last for testing. This leads to the spec receiving constant changes with little to no time for feedback from beta before they go live.

    They said during cataclysm beta & even before that they wanted ret to focus on offensive ability more & less off being an off healing because that role by their own admission cannot be balanced. SO what do they do ? Well they create talents like selfless healer & RNG mechanics that allow ret to use massive heals or spam heals, then they get rid of most of the specs self survivability & don't add any new offensive potential other then a snare the spec can't use half the time because it has horrible time on target potential.

    The design team has gone on record under the blue posts (before cataclysm beta began) saying that reliable gap closing mechanics are a necessity for all melee classes because they ensure time on target & mean that a melee spec does not have to rely on overwhelming burst. So what do they do well they make the spec as weak as ever vs spam snare & CC chain tactics then give it overwhelming burst during a CD.

    The design team has also gone on record before beta began that a stance/presence/form type mechanic is a necessity for hybrids to be balanced because such mechanics ensure that a spec cannot fill multiple roles effectively at the same time, they do this by empowering certain abilities or granting access to completely new ones needed for that particular role while reducing the effects of or completely prohibiting the use of abilities not needed for that role.
    After allowing their design team to admit this what do they do, the management team says their "Vision" of paladins does not include such a mechanic.

    You can look these things up yourself, if your persistent in searching you will find them. the only 2 rational explanations can be either 1: they have no idea WTf their doing or 2: They simply don't care
    I leave you to decide for yourself. I frankly think it's that they don't care or see ret as worth the effort/resources because they have done a great job with so many of the other specs.
    The way balancing for WOW PVP works is allot like American politics.
    1: Be lazy & ignore problems till the yelling is so loud your cant concentrate.
    2: Refuse to do the things you have Said need to be done, then make up reasons why they cannot be done.
    3: Lay the blame for problems on someone else even when it's your fault because you did all of the above.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Loop View Post
    Yeh it's fun..if you like rogues..you know

    SnD - Inq
    TV - Evi
    Holy power - combo points.

    exactly...

  16. #156
    Herald of the Titans zcks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    I think it's better than the combo-point system which counts points on the target only.
    It makes sense for a paladin to have holy power.
    We aren't reliant on luck any more than other classes, I really hate that stupid QQ.
    If you want a 100% static rotation, than you should play another game.
    As for the other things you mentioned,

    1: The only way it is actually better then a combo point system that stacks on the target is that it does not get lost if your enemy dies. In every other respect it is worse then what Rogues & Cats have because of horrible implementation.
    2: From a lore standpoint there is no basis for it, however there is no basis against it either. It really could have been called any number of things from zeal to faith etc...
    3: As far as luck goes ret is up there with fire mages & enhancement shaman, however it scales worse then they do stat wise mainly because the RNG from divine purpose does not get better & because haste is such a crappy stat even though so much can be effected by it.
    The way balancing for WOW PVP works is allot like American politics.
    1: Be lazy & ignore problems till the yelling is so loud your cant concentrate.
    2: Refuse to do the things you have Said need to be done, then make up reasons why they cannot be done.
    3: Lay the blame for problems on someone else even when it's your fault because you did all of the above.

  17. #157
    Herald of the Titans Suikoden's Avatar
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    I like that Blizzard took time to revamp ret after how easy it was to faceroll in Wrath. What I don't like is how much one has to rely on Holy Power. It's an interesting mechanic but there is too much centered around it and it can make for some painful gameplay.

  18. #158
    I hate the holy power mechanic. I don't think it really brought anything new to the table besides hitting more buttons and managing more CD while trying to do competitive dps. It's not just pally dps either I think all melee really got the shaft this xpac.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by meroko View Post
    People who like facerolling will always hate new ret. The actual good ret paladins love it because its smart and fun. Now see if you can pick out the bad pallies in this post
    ^Found him!

    I can pretty much effortlessly follow the priorities perfectly in a raid setting for damage. If I screw the prios I'm punished pretty hard, but it's really easy not to.

    While less punishment was dealt in WoTLK for getting the wrong prio, they were often forgotten/clashed etc. and better planning would have increased damage (Not as much as I'd like but still) so there was a feeling of "I could have practically and feasibly done things to improve my damage" instead of now which was more like "I procced TV uncommonly highly/low/ My gear could be a better iLevel(Min/maxing ret gear is also easy as hell now)"

    Best scenario would be WoTLK style clashing resolutions and timings with more potential and more punishment.

    And less bloody RNG to the proccing.

    PPS: I want to feel in control of my damage, in WoTLK I could get it to return pretty much the same DPS values every time, but now it feels like it's down to the dice gods what happens and it sucks, truthfully.
    Last edited by Baneat; 2011-08-01 at 06:05 AM.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowdream View Post
    Any ret worth his salt runs clcret/clcinfo, removes a large portion of what makes it smart and fun. To me, it's a bit... meh, not enough flavour to it.
    lol at this. You don't need any Priority addons to do retribution. If you have the overlay Huds displayed, it is very predictable otherwise and extremely easy with a Class timer on Inquisition. If you actually need an addon, you aren't worth that salf you just added.

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