do you want a redesign for ret?

[Elrond]

i liked the Wrath Ret paladin, but i understand that they changed it. However if i could chose i would have gone for the Wrath version

offtopickinda: i want hunters to go back to endgame wrath times aswell : /

[Deleted]

I do miss the old tree

I miss it a lot too :`(

[zcks]

Aren't paladins the main class that has been revamped every expansion?

This ^ is true, but only if you actually consider the cataclysm changes to ret an actual revamp.

In actuality what happened was they heavily reworked how holy worked, then added a few changes to how prot worked. Then they finally through some shit together in a hurry for ret so that they could launch the game on time.
Then after release they did a myriad of bandaid fixes & number tweaks to ret which solved none of the core issues (like too much RNG, lack of a complete melee toolkit, need for baseline fillers, lack of ability to effectively close gaps, the fact you can effectively off heal & dps with the same spec (depending on luck) at the drop of a hat etc...), which in the end will all lead to the class (especially ret spec) needing another complete "revamp" yet again next expansion.

This ^ isn't the first time it has happened either & will probably not be the last because each time around the management at blizzard has done the exact same 3 things.

1: Rush the design team & not give them the proper time needed for fine tuning & changes.
2: Not give relevant player feedback to the design team. (if they give them any at all it's to late to make changes).
3: Refuse to let the design team implement the tools/mechanics they have said are a necessity for melee specs & hybrid classes.

Each time they did these things because their "vision" of the paladin class is first & foremost a healer & secondly a tank, to put it simply they do not care enough about ret to let it see the dedicated resources needed for a real overhaul with forethought behind it.
In their own words they see retribution spec as a true melee healer hybrid & that vision does not include tools such as a stance/presence/form system or reliable gap closing mechanics (even though the designers have said such tools/mechanics are a necessity for balance among melee's & hybrids) & if lacking such tools/mechanics means ret cannot be balanced properly because the designers cant figure a way out then that means they wont be balanced properly.

[Forde]

wtb wotlk ret back

this. the biggest reason why we cant have our sustained dps can be buffed is because of sanctified wrath. the use of HoW under AW makes our burst too strong in combination with zealotry. revert the Sanctified wrath talent back to the WoTLK model and buff judgement, make it or DS generate a holy power, then we're better off than where we are now.

[Argg0]

IMO... Crusader shouldn't have a CD and it should be a weaker. That'd be a good enough change.

[Kavelos]

This ^ is true, but only if you actually consider the cataclysm changes to ret an actual revamp.

In actuality what happened was they heavily reworked how holy worked, then added a few changes to how prot worked. Then they finally through some shit together in a hurry for ret so that they could launch the game on time.
Then after release they did a myriad of bandaid fixes & number tweaks to ret which solved none of the core issues (like too much RNG, lack of a complete melee toolkit, need for baseline fillers, lack of ability to effectively close gaps, the fact you can effectively off heal & dps with the same spec (depending on luck) at the drop of a hat etc...), which in the end will all lead to the class (especially ret spec) needing another complete "revamp" yet again next expansion.

Pretty sure they designed Holy Power for Retribution first, and then decided to give it to all paladins.

[zcks]

Pretty sure they designed Holy Power for Retribution first, and then decided to give it to all paladins.

They implemented the concept of it for ret first yes, however after the initial build that didn't work they started throwing all kinds of ideas around for how ret could work with it & were never allowed to fine tune any of them because they were on a deadline. Then while ret was getting massive changes constantly they proceeded to fine tune holy & prot holy power mechanics because they worked.


Hence ret design & development was rushed & was never allocated the proper time needed for testing & fine tuning.
Then after release the rotation was never fine tuned, numbers were just "tweaked" & the mastery changed (with the old one baked into the new divine purpose talent). The reason for not doing further work on the rotation, adding new fillers & getting rid of the RNG ? Well its because were not in beta anymore & they don't want to drastically change the rotation or do another overhaul mid expansion.


Like I said before, if they would simply allocate the proper time needed for design, fine tuning, testing & feedback (while allowing the design team to implement the tools/mechanics they admit are needed) this whole mess would have never happened.

This happened before back in 3.0, luckily they had a bit more time to work with ret then before release & realized it could be solved by a simple change that would not have to adverse of an effect.

And lastly it will probably happen again because they still consider the spec to be not worth the time/resources & because their "vision" (outdated relic that it is) does not allow the class to have the tools/mechanics the designers have said it needs to reach a more balanced state.

[zcks]

Zcks, do you have any sources for that crap you are throwing around?

You mean besides the painfully obvious ?

They have gone on record saying they have always had the most trouble balancing paladins out of all the classes, so what do they do time & time again for each expansion beta ? Well they always schedule paladins last for testing. This leads to the spec receiving constant changes with little to no time for feedback from beta before they go live.

They said during cataclysm beta & even before that they wanted ret to focus on offensive ability more & less off being an off healing because that role by their own admission cannot be balanced. SO what do they do ? Well they create talents like selfless healer & RNG mechanics that allow ret to use massive heals or spam heals, then they get rid of most of the specs self survivability & don't add any new offensive potential other then a snare the spec can't use half the time because it has horrible time on target potential.

The design team has gone on record under the blue posts (before cataclysm beta began) saying that reliable gap closing mechanics are a necessity for all melee classes because they ensure time on target & mean that a melee spec does not have to rely on overwhelming burst. So what do they do well they make the spec as weak as ever vs spam snare & CC chain tactics then give it overwhelming burst during a CD.

The design team has also gone on record before beta began that a stance/presence/form type mechanic is a necessity for hybrids to be balanced because such mechanics ensure that a spec cannot fill multiple roles effectively at the same time, they do this by empowering certain abilities or granting access to completely new ones needed for that particular role while reducing the effects of or completely prohibiting the use of abilities not needed for that role.
After allowing their design team to admit this what do they do, the management team says their "Vision" of paladins does not include such a mechanic.

You can look these things up yourself, if your persistent in searching you will find them. the only 2 rational explanations can be either 1: they have no idea WTf their doing or 2: They simply don't care I leave you to decide for yourself. I frankly think it's that they don't care or see ret as worth the effort/resources because they have done a great job with so many of the other specs.

[Knot]

Yeh it's fun..if you like rogues..you know

SnD - Inq
TV - Evi
Holy power - combo points.

exactly...

[zcks]

I think it's better than the combo-point system which counts points on the target only.
It makes sense for a paladin to have holy power.
We aren't reliant on luck any more than other classes, I really hate that stupid QQ.
If you want a 100% static rotation, than you should play another game.

As for the other things you mentioned,

1: The only way it is actually better then a combo point system that stacks on the target is that it does not get lost if your enemy dies. In every other respect it is worse then what Rogues & Cats have because of horrible implementation.
2: From a lore standpoint there is no basis for it, however there is no basis against it either. It really could have been called any number of things from zeal to faith etc...
3: As far as luck goes ret is up there with fire mages & enhancement shaman, however it scales worse then they do stat wise mainly because the RNG from divine purpose does not get better & because haste is such a crappy stat even though so much can be effected by it.

[Suikoden]

I like that Blizzard took time to revamp ret after how easy it was to faceroll in Wrath. What I don't like is how much one has to rely on Holy Power. It's an interesting mechanic but there is too much centered around it and it can make for some painful gameplay.

[jimlow]

I hate the holy power mechanic. I don't think it really brought anything new to the table besides hitting more buttons and managing more CD while trying to do competitive dps. It's not just pally dps either I think all melee really got the shaft this xpac.

[Deleted]

People who like facerolling will always hate new ret. The actual good ret paladins love it because its smart and fun. Now see if you can pick out the bad pallies in this post

^Found him!

I can pretty much effortlessly follow the priorities perfectly in a raid setting for damage. If I screw the prios I'm punished pretty hard, but it's really easy not to.

While less punishment was dealt in WoTLK for getting the wrong prio, they were often forgotten/clashed etc. and better planning would have increased damage (Not as much as I'd like but still) so there was a feeling of "I could have practically and feasibly done things to improve my damage" instead of now which was more like "I procced TV uncommonly highly/low/ My gear could be a better iLevel(Min/maxing ret gear is also easy as hell now)"

Best scenario would be WoTLK style clashing resolutions and timings with more potential and more punishment.

And less bloody RNG to the proccing.

PPS: I want to feel in control of my damage, in WoTLK I could get it to return pretty much the same DPS values every time, but now it feels like it's down to the dice gods what happens and it sucks, truthfully.

[Eon Drache]

Any ret worth his salt runs clcret/clcinfo, removes a large portion of what makes it smart and fun. To me, it's a bit... meh, not enough flavour to it.

lol at this. You don't need any Priority addons to do retribution. If you have the overlay Huds displayed, it is very predictable otherwise and extremely easy with a Class timer on Inquisition. If you actually need an addon, you aren't worth that salf you just added.

[Demonicans]

Divine storm and crusader strike off the same cooldown and we will all be happy once again

[Dakara]

People who like facerolling will always hate new ret. The actual good ret paladins love it because its smart and fun. Now see if you can pick out the bad pallies in this post

Playing whack-a-mole does not take skill.

Ret was faceroll in WOTLK, it's still faceroll in Cata, the only difference being you now must count to 3 and refresh a buff every 30 seconds.

As a Paladin who's played (raided) all 3 specs since Vanilla. Holy Power can diaf.

[Jonuts]

It's not a generalisation, you perform better with it than without. As such, every ret worth his salt uses it.

No. *YOU* perform better with it than without it. That you can't be bothered to learn your class doesn't mean *EVERYONE* can't be bothered to learn their class. I don't consider an add on that tells you which button to push a mark of a good player.

[Badpaladin]

lol at this. You don't need any Priority addons to do retribution. If you have the overlay Huds displayed, it is very predictable otherwise and extremely easy with a Class timer on Inquisition. If you actually need an addon, you aren't worth that salf you just added.

Eh, tell that to almost every top-rated ret that plays the game I guess. It's not like the addon is going to be a massive increase or anything, but nobody can tell me they play perfectly in a hectic raid environment with a straight face. When you're dodging shit, paying attention to inquisition timers, boss timers, your nuts itch, etc -- at one point or another you're going to hit Judgment instead of Crusader Strike, or any similar bundle of abilities. Clcret prevents that from happening, provided you're not retarded and actually set it up properly rather than blindly follow it straight out of the box.

[MonsieuRoberts]

I like Ret the way it is, CS, filler, filler.

[Deleted]

Nothing wrong with the retribution spec, only the players behind it.
What i feel is wrong with the spec atm, is its underperforming dps.
Could the dps be improved just a bit it would be a very viable class to bring into raids.

We got a ret in g1, and my god he is doing awesome dps. So again, its the players behind the spec being the problem, and to some extent the not to high dps they produce at the same time. But, amazing players makes amazing dps. Bad players dont.