1. #1
    Deleted

    I think I know why troll racial is slightly higher than goblin.

    Blizzard probably think like that: "Since they have to use it manually it deserves to get higher DPS. The rest guys get the advantage 100% anyway".

    This is practically true, because the troll racial requires to time a burn phase, to use the ability at the right time, to hope there is no lag to not waste even a fraction of the little time given with the proc, etc. To hope the encounter lets you use it optimally. Other perks just are on anyway.

  2. #2
    Plus the troll regen racial is awesome in arena because it makes you get hp faster from eating

  3. #3
    That is just a variable of why its better. Do you know why it's better? Because it scales. The goblin racial is a set amount usually that doesn't scale with stats. The better gear you get, the faster ur attack speed and other shit, so the value of the racial increases with it.

  4. #4
    Deleted
    \m/ trolls \m/

  5. #5
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by The Ogdru Jahad View Post
    That is just a variable of why its better. Do you know why it's better? Because it scales. The goblin racial is a set amount usually that doesn't scale with stats. The better gear you get, the faster ur attack speed and other shit, so the value of the racial increases with it.
    This is not entirely true because if one with higher spell power, crit chance and mastery attack faster, they scale.

    edit: Also I don't know if it scales on current haste but I guess it doesn't.

  6. #6
    The Lightbringer MrHappy's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    3,163
    Quote Originally Posted by The Ogdru Jahad View Post
    That is just a variable of why its better. Do you know why it's better? Because it scales. The goblin racial is a set amount usually that doesn't scale with stats. The better gear you get, the faster ur attack speed and other shit, so the value of the racial increases with it.
    awww u beat me to it =(

    but yea its basically it troll racial is a % ie the haste u get form the racial buff depends on your actual haste rating.
    Goblin is attack and cast speed 1%. key word is SPEED. this means that take your BASE attack and CAST speed and minus it 1%. thats it. w/e haste rating you get wont make this 1% scale.

  7. #7
    Deleted
    In any case the racial of goblin is theoretically worse according to theorycrafting. The point I'm making is not why [technically] but that the game is rarely Patchwerk[, players are rarely perfect, encounters are rarely simple] and rarely perfect in networking smoothness. A manually used ability requires perfection to reach the theoretical result. The goblin racial will give its advantage 100%.

    edit: To say it another way: If they were [mathematically] equal, the troll racial would be worse. It would be worse because it would need management and perfection in application.
    Last edited by mmoc4d6ae87215; 2011-07-30 at 09:04 PM.

  8. #8
    I am Murloc! gaymer77's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Central California
    Posts
    5,218
    The static amount of a stat vs a proc or on-use come out to close the same be it a racial or item. The reason why an on-use can be higher than a static number is because they are supposed to be close when you factor in ICD, CD, time it lasts, and time you don't have it up. Its why the Lightweave is higher valued than the 50 int cloak enchant.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by fateswarm View Post
    In any case the racial of goblin is theoretically worse according to theorycrafting. The point I'm making is not why [technically] but that the game is rarely Patchwerk[, players are rarely perfect, encounters are rarely simple] and rarely perfect in networking smoothness. A manually used ability requires perfection to reach the theoretical result. The goblin racial will give its advantage 100%.

    edit: To say it another way: If they were [mathematically] equal, the troll racial would be worse. It would be worse because it would need management and perfection in application.
    Well sure this all true, but that fact that the troll racial scales multiplicatively(sp?) it is going to automatically become better and better

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by gnlogic View Post
    awww u beat me to it =(

    but yea its basically it troll racial is a % ie the haste u get form the racial buff depends on your actual haste rating.
    Goblin is attack and cast speed 1%. key word is SPEED. this means that take your BASE attack and CAST speed and minus it 1%. thats it. w/e haste rating you get wont make this 1% scale.
    It's 1% haste, just worded differently.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWhead
    Apply Aura: Mod Spell Haste %
    Value: 1
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  11. #11
    the troll racials good cause u can time it properly too. especially for arcane when u want to burn as fast as possible. 20% haste at 85 is huge compared to 1.

  12. #12
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by announced View Post
    20% haste at 85 is huge compared to 1.
    Quote Originally Posted by notbob View Post
    it is going to automatically become better and better
    Those are two misconceptions. One, 20% haste is not compared to 1% haste, it is 1% haste 100% of the time compared to 20% haste for 10 seconds when used, and when used correctly.

    Also, there is no "automatically better" reality here. Rawr gives troll racial about 400 DPS points in normal 372ish gear. It gives goblin 200 DPS points. First of all we see those are not spectacular differences, those are differences one gets when upgrading a ring to a tier higher (so we're not talking about any fireworks here, it's mostly minor optimization). Second, since the difference is so close, if the troll racial did not have 10 seconds but 8 or 5 it would become worse. Even if equal it would be practically at a disadvantage when it has to be managed manually because on paper one assumes an environment of perfection, which is rarely doable unless you approach Patchwerk or you are really good or lucky.

    In addition the argument of "it can be used on burn phase" is completely irrelevant since Rawr does use it on burn phase so the points it gives to it are there. If it didn't use it there, it would be ranked much worse (and it is not ranked spectacularly high now).

    [Also, any "in future gear" arguments are largely irrelevant since those differences are there for all to see on normal gear and for BiS gear now. Those are practical numbers, the gear is known to a significant extend; there're no really much of a "future" in wow, we know it in a large part; and before you know it, a new expansion comes, the level resets and here we go again.]

    [Also, the goblin racial is not really flat and unscaled completely. While it may not scale with haste it will give higher damage on characters with higher spell power, higher crit, higher mastery, higher mana, etc.]


    edit: Actually I want to point out the whole "it scales" argument is completely wrong. The two racials do exactly the same: 'increase in attack and casting speed', there is absolutely no difference in quality; only in quantity and restrictions in duration.
    --

    Hence we conclude again we have a mathematically better racial that is practically harder to approach its complete potential because simply it has to be managed while the other one is de facto used optimally 100% of the time by design.

    If goblin racial was mathematically equal to troll, troll would become substantially worse due to the management required.

    ---------- Post added 2011-08-01 at 01:17 AM ----------

    Actually I want to point out the whole "it scales" argument is completely wrong. The two racials do exactly the same: 'increase in attack and casting speed', there is absolutely no difference in quality; only in quantity and restrictions in duration.

    --

    and we haven't even gone to the 'indirect DPS' of the rocket jump (similar to boot enchants)
    Last edited by mmoc4d6ae87215; 2011-07-31 at 10:35 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by fateswarm View Post
    Those are two misconceptions. One, 20% haste is not compared to 1% haste, it is 1% haste 100% of the time compared to 20% haste for 10 seconds when used, and when used correctly.

    Also, there is no "automatically better" reality here. Rawr gives troll racial about 400 DPS points in normal 372ish gear. It gives goblin 200 DPS points. First of all we see those are not spectacular differences, those are differences one gets when upgrading a ring to a tier higher (so we're not talking about any fireworks here, it's mostly minor optimization). Second, since the difference is so close, if the troll racial did not have 10 seconds but 8 or 5 it would become worse. Even if equal it would be practically at a disadvantage when it has to be managed manually because on paper one assumes an environment of perfection, which is rarely doable unless you approach Patchwerk or you are really good or lucky.

    In addition the argument of "it can be used on burn phase" is completely irrelevant since Rawr does use it on burn phase so the points it gives to it are there. If it didn't use it there, it would be ranked much worse (and it is not ranked spectacularly high now).

    [Also, any "in future gear" arguments are largely irrelevant since those differences are there for all to see on normal gear and for BiS gear now. Those are practical numbers, the gear is known to a significant extend; there're no really much of a "future" in wow, we know it in a large part; and before you know it, a new expansion comes, the level resets and here we go again.]

    [Also, the goblin racial is not really flat and unscaled completely. While it may not scale with haste it will give higher damage on characters with higher spell power, higher crit, higher mastery, higher mana, etc.]


    edit: Actually I want to point out the whole "it scales" argument is completely wrong. The two racials do exactly the same: 'increase in attack and casting speed', there is absolutely no difference in quality; only in quantity and restrictions in duration.
    --

    Hence we conclude again we have a mathematically better racial that is practically harder to approach its complete potential because simply it has to be managed while the other one is de facto used optimally 100% of the time by design.

    If goblin racial was mathematically equal to troll, troll would become substantially worse due to the management required.

    ---------- Post added 2011-08-01 at 01:17 AM ----------

    Actually I want to point out the whole "it scales" argument is completely wrong. The two racials do exactly the same: 'increase in attack and casting speed', there is absolutely no difference in quality; only in quantity and restrictions in duration.

    --

    and we haven't even gone to the 'indirect DPS' of the rocket jump (similar to boot enchants)
    Well..what I meant was that if you use berserking with time warp and icy veins, that 20% can be come upwards of a 25% boost. If you use that with other cds obviously that burst phase (so long as your spell don't go below 1 second cast obviously) is going to be worth a lot more dps over the whole fight than that passive 1% is going to give you over the course of the fight. I know you said that rawr uses it with burst phases but part me finds it hard to believe that it uses at the ideal times. I could be wrong, if so disregard all that.

    But most importantly of all, berserking is better on a higher mobility fight. When you're moving and not doing dps the 1% haste is worth nothing. If you get full use of each berserking then it can be up for more than 1/18th of your dps time, even though it could only ever be up 1/18th of the total time, if that makes sense.

    Annnnd Beast slaying! More dps on beth'tilac, eh?

    And rocket boosts are near worthless unless you have a really really high mobility fight (where blink just isn't sufficient)
    Last edited by notbob; 2011-08-01 at 01:31 AM.

  14. #14
    Deleted
    Rocket boots can be a measurable DPS increase in some cases. Only Baleroc approaches a Patchwerk now, most others could do with jumping and blinking.

    Rawr unequivocally uses such cooldowns correctly in the burn phase. They are listed in the stats list.

    Also, your reasoning about berserking being better for mobility fights is only applicable in theoretical extreme cases I don't think we have right now. It requires cases there is almost NO DPS when not burning. This is right now almost impossible. Even Alysrazor on fire mage gets at least 50% of its damage not from the burn phase. In most realistic cases again it requires doing it perfectly to approach the theoretical result while the 1% speed will be on 100% anyway.
    Last edited by mmoc4d6ae87215; 2011-08-01 at 01:06 PM.

  15. #15
    I play a troll priest and troll hunter, I like it for mana burn and re-gaining focus with steady shot personally. power infusion + racial + mana burn = gg mana. but the goblins have a lot more interesting racials, like that rocket jump i considered because i can imagine using it at the max height of deterrence must send you pretty far.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Strakha View Post
    I play a troll priest and troll hunter, I like it for mana burn and re-gaining focus with steady shot personally. power infusion + racial + mana burn = gg mana. but the goblins have a lot more interesting racials, like that rocket jump i considered because i can imagine using it at the max height of deterrence must send you pretty far.
    Yeah goblin rocket jump will save your ass as a disc priest, and as a hunter its a godsend.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •