Paragon's Ret Paladin admits that there's no reason to bring a Ret to a raid

[Phocket]

I'm waiting for the post "Paragon goes all mages for dps slots". Seriously, are you a world first guild? No? Cool, because this only pertains to about 50 guilds world wide, if that. Bring the people that perform the best with whatever class they are playing. Too many people take Paragon and try to compare themselves to those players.

[Khwaj]

ret pallies treat the ret spec as it was its own class. You dont see locks complaining over dest not being super omg uber in raids. Most are happy having just one really viable spec. Same goes for most pure classes.

as soon as u show me where a prot pally or holy pally can spec to dps outside of gimmick fights ill eat my own hair, until then ret is its own class
a lock has 3 options to dps, destro, aff and demo at least u guys have the option to dps in a diff spec, only priests and pallies have 1 dps spec

[Deleted]

How are they a curse? There a inspiration to people in most cases and usually follow their peoples footsteps to become a greater player lol

You'd have a point if world firsts were about time spent per boss kill.

The way it is nowadays, you just raid those 12-16 hours a day and you're n1 in the world. Congrats.

Also if you like a class, what do you care if it's subpar performance wise. You're not even allowed to play the goddamn class you want to?

[Voij]

Good Lord, not this shit again. -.-'
I swear to God, each time someone makes a thread like somewhere on the planet the pet of an 8-year old boy dies.
ARE YOU HAPPY NOW, OP?!

[Deleted]

i think ret are ok but could do with some tweaks here and there, maybe bit less RNG and more reliability.

[Vigilate]

I'm waiting for the post "Paragon goes all mages for dps slots". Seriously, are you are world first guild? No? Cool, because this only pertains to about 50 guilds world wide, if that. Bring the people that perform the best with whatever class they are playing. Too many people take Paragon and try to compare themselves to those players.

Considering how my guild is within that top 50 world/top 10ish US range, I'm pretty sure that it does pertain to me.

[Phocket]

Considering how my guild is within that top 50 world/top 10ish US range, I'm pretty sure that it does pertain to me.

Then re-roll a mage.

[Volitar]

Siigh.. Did you know that two weeks ago I was over in the Shaman forum telling people how proud I was of the paladins because we didn't have such a thread?

Well, good luck for him rolling his mage. I heard they only had one on Ragnaros!
For 99% of the guilds it's not the class-choice that is slowing them down, but performance. For those guild the class hardly matters.

Normally I don't jump on the qq train but If top guilds don't bring a class or spec they feel are sub par we should just ignore that because 'we aren't good enough for that to matter"? The class is still worse than others and we will still be doing much less dps regardless of what level of the game we play at. When you join a world class guild ret doesn't magically get worse ret is lower than almost every other dps spec at any level of the game. IF PLAYERS ARE EQUALLY SKILLED don't post some your wrong my mate is a ret pally and he destroys our mage on dps meters ret is fine.

[Resentful]

Then re-roll a mage.

And destroy his hardwork on that paladin? That's a bit harsh

A top guild with all out theorycrafting pretty much has no need for a ret pally therefor his guild will most likely follow that case and not bother bringing him likely?

Top guilds mimic others in most cases

In his case, It's likely to happen to him as well losing his toon that he has worked for that's pretty depressing

In addition OP is in a high ranking guild that's highly competitive mind you

[deneweth]

wth?
this is the top guild, why would it be player skill or gear, if they had bad raid awareness, crappy dps then u might have a point, but i doubt it

they do their research down to the last class, thats how they achieve world first, if they didnt they would not have achieved their result

these players play their toons to the best of their abilities and try to squeeze as much dps as tehy can, if they say ret is not a good choice to bring to high end raiding i would believe them, its when u play ur character to the limits u get the feeling wats is their max potential, this shows that rets max potential is laggin behind teh other melee (plz dont include shamans, this is a pally forum)

Even in top guilds mistakes are made. No one ever does 100% of theoretical dps. It could be gear because he is presumably basing his opinions on raids since the patch and its possible that the other melees got drops before him.

He said he "doesn't know about feral or enchancement" thats not research down to the last class. Besides, by your logic if they did the research and brought him AND got world firsts then ret must be fine.

He never said ret wasn't a good choice. He said it wasn't the best choice. That opinion is only relevant in its context of a world first guild. In any other situation there are variables that out weigh the class imbalance. In a perfect world where all the other variables are consent then yes, there would be no reason to pick ret from a preformance stand point. Even then you have to ask yourself what does the extra damage get you. It means a lot when you're going for heroic world firsts with one week's worth of current tier non-heroic drops. For normal raids you should be able to bring any class and easily do enough dps. The extra dps is only going to help you overcome short falls elsewhere. You could easily argue that having lay on hands as utility could edge out the extra dps in that regard.

[Phocket]

And destroy his hardwork on that paladin? That's a bit harsh

A top guild with all out theorycrafting pretty much has no need for a ret pally therefor his guild will most likely follow that case and not bother bringing him likely?

Top guilds mimic others in most cases

In his case, It's likely to happen to him as well losing his toon that he has worked for that's pretty depressing

In addition OP is in a high ranking guild that's highly competitive mind you

I understand this. I'm just saying that if he/she's saying that Paladin's are no longer viable as ret, there are four options:
1) Re-roll
2) Re-spec
3) Don't raid
4) Quit

You also have to remember that they run dps heavy, and kinda light on heals. Therefore, each class HAS to be min/maxed to ensure a kill. If you're running the same setup that Paragon is, then I can understand this. But, if like most guilds, you're running a normal setup (not sure if you do 10m or 25m), then you can be behind 500 dps or so. I'd also like to make a point that (and don't take offense), being a top 100 world guild =/= the same caliber as Paragon or Method.

[Deleted]

hmm, theres always a bigger fish feels like a fitting statement.

I mean if your doing same dps/dmg as the others in your raid (give or take a little) then wats the problem, if ur (single target) far far below others then there is a problem ofc. Plus u gotta think utilities, Hand of freedom on various fights it helps, HoP aswell.

What im saying is that someones gotta be at the bottom of the dps charts why cant it be rets? and if it is (which it isnt) meh , each of us has had our FOTM patches

[aerwah]

To others that claim it doesn't affect you if you don't raid "hardcore", with specs that are proven to be inferior and with hefty amount of bad reputation on its back, like ret, and with melee dps tax, such claims are enough to convince your average 7/7 normal with a bit on the heroic side guild enough to convince paladins are not the choice for dps, now i understand that you might be in this guild since the WoW was bricks and stones but for many other people who keep guild jumping whether it be expansion-shock, limited play times outside of summer/in summer, guild/loot drama, this hurts even the more skilled rets to raid or pvp with such people that you keep grinding your teeth throughout the raid time, hoping some day it will get better and clinging to the little fun you have.

[Vigilate]

To others that claim it doesn't affect you if you don't raid "hardcore", with specs that are proven to be inferior and with hefty amount of bad reputation on its back, like ret, and with melee dps tax, such claims are enough to convince your average 7/7 normal with a bit on the heroic side guild enough to convince paladins are not the choice for dps, now i understand that you might be in this guild since the WoW was bricks and stones but for many other people who keep guild jumping whether it be expansion-shock, limited play times outside of summer/in summer, guild/loot drama, this hurts even the more skilled rets to raid or pvp with such people that you keep grinding your teeth throughout the raid time, hoping some day it will get better and clinging to the little fun you have.

This is exactly my point. It starts out with guilds like Paragon, Method, and Ensidia stacking classes a certain way. From the top 10 world guilds, it trickles down to top 50 world guilds, then top 100 world guilds, top 1000 world world guilds, and onwards, with a few exceptions because that's what the community's general consensus ends up becoming. It was the same reason Rets were not used for most of TBC and why elementals were in a similar situation for start of Cataclysm. I'm not trying to say that Enchantment shamans aren't is a similar situation to Rets. If anything, both Rets and Enhancement shamans need a look at.

[Deleted]

I read Paragon's forums from time to time to see their opinions of different subjects. As I was reading their paladin section today, I found this little gem posted by Iiris, their Ret Paladin:
http://www.paragon.fi/forum/viewtopi...p=12914#p12914

When long time, high end Ret paladins are admitting that Rets are worthless at the moment and are rerolling better classes, that should be a sign that there's major problems with the spec.

Ele shammy and Enhance shammies are both worse than ret from my experience...

[Harpocrates]

funnily enough , only a very select few will actually care about this guys opinion, people play this game to have fun, not play to make money

[Vigilate]

Ele shammy and Enhance shammies are both worse than ret from my experience...

Elemental shamans received a 12% dps buff this week and are definitely no where near the bottom now. Enhancement is in a terrible situation, but most of the logs and simulations still show it being higher.

---------- Post added 2011-07-31 at 04:26 PM ----------

funnily enough , only a very select few will actually care about this guys opinion, people play this game to have fun, not play to make money

If playing for money is the case, why is it that guilds like Envy and Method, who are not sponsored, do not run Ret paladins?

[Deleted]

By this logic, Retribution was fine in TBC because there were some more casual guilds that might have a Ret paladin because he was a nice guy and didn't stand in fire.

Except that in TBC ret wasn't a little bit behind, it was abysmal in comparison and would be like bringing a blood DK to do dps now.

If you knew what you were talking about you wouldn't be bringing this up. The best guilds in the world ran with a ret paladin due to their buffs.

[aerwah]

funnily enough , only a very select few will actually care about this guys opinion, people play this game to have fun, not play to make money

You will have more fun when you are killing bosses and getting your loot faster when all you have to do is not choose the pink color out of the massive amounts of player base.

[Vigilate]

If you knew what you were talking about you wouldn't be bringing this up. The best guilds in the world ran with a ret paladin due to their buffs.

This is very much true. As a Ret paladin back then, I brought 3% crit on a target, 6% healing which eventually became 2% damage, and constantly refreshing the judgements of light and wisdom that were put up by holy paladins. With seal twisting and windfury, Ret could pull respectable numbers. That doesn't mean Ret was fine.