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  1. #21
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrkur View Post
    Once you have a successful 25 Man Raid group that is capable of killing normal modes, applications to your guild should be going up and you can start introducing those rules. You can't just up and say "I'm starting a 25 man raid guild tonight" and incorporate those rules.
    That's precisely when you NEED those rules. You also need to accept that you probably won't raid successfully for a few weeks or possibly a couple months, at least at the 25-man level.

    If you don't remove problem players quickly, ESPECIALLY as a new startup, those few good players looking for a home will see the lack of success and that the "bads" are still around the next week, and they'll leave to find a guild that has a chance of success. You're not looking for players who just want to progress NOW, because they'll join a guild that has progression down. You're not looking to train players, because that takes a lot of time you don't have and will have mixed results at the best of times. You're looking for players who want to be part of a regular guild and are patient enough to wait out the first few painful weeks, if they see promise.

    And without removing problem players, there will be no promise.

    And sure, you need to be progressed and known or you won't have a lot of applicants, but if you're looking for regular players, word of mouth and Trade pugging is a good start for high turnover on the majority of servers. We used to be on Ravenholdt (wowprogress ranked 189th) and now we're on Lightninghoof (wowprogress ranked 59th) and while there was a major difference to be seen there, LH isn't exactly the most populated server. Yes, there will be a lot of bad players, but that's why you need to be ready to remove people.

    And be ready to get nowhere for a few weeks, because you're not going to get a 25-man raid together and down Ragnaros the first week you're at this.

  2. #22
    Endus is .. mainly right, but there are a few points I'd amend.

    Don't gkick anyone unless you have a replacement available. If that means underperforming on a raid and not killing as much as you could, that sucks but it's better than having a cancelled raid because you just gkicked half your healers. Raiders want to raid; they will get disheartened and leave for other guilds if you end up cancelling too many raids.

    Have a real trial period. For many guilds, "Trial" means "You're in, but you don't get loot yet". A good guild leader won't hesitate to fail a trialist if their performance isn't up to scratch. Your raid core will notice and respect decisive leadership.

    Plan for absences, but don't over-recruit to the point where people are having to be benched repeatedly. The ideal goal would be 25 people who can attend every single raid without fail, but that's fairy-tale unrealistic and won't happen. Bear in mind, however, that for every extra person you recruit to cover these absences, you'll have to completely gear them up .. excessive recruitment and rotation hurts progressive guilds by spreading out the loot/raiding experience.

    Our guild hovers between 5-10th on our server, usually 2nd-3rd on our faction and we only raid twice a week.

    Hybrid DPS. Hybrids are your friend; especially when they're experienced/skilled at multiple roles. Having a fury warrior capable of filling in for a tank, or a shadowpriest capable of speccing holy .. hybrids are the best method of keeping your raid core as small as possible.

    Personal opinion: Don't use a DKP system. It slows down raiding and breeds drama like nothing else I've seen in an MMO. If an item drops that is a marginal sidegrade for one guy but a hefty upgrade for another .. have some common sense and get the loot to the player you need it to go to.

    Second drama-avoidance .. don't recuit "that guys wife/girlfriend" or "that chick, she's sorta cute" .. recruit on merit, avoid package deals. If "that guy" ever decides to quit and "his wife/girlfriend" goes with him, you're down two geared/experienced raiders.

    Zero tolerance of drama. Endus mentioned this but I'm going to mention it again for added emphasis. Drama is the death of guilds.

  3. #23
    Grunt
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    Would using ask mrrobot be a decent way to judge whether an item would be better for one prison over another as a loot system?

    And it's a bit hard to go back and edit on an iPod FYI.

    Thanks guys once my nets back up I should be alright.

    Any tips for finding a decent raid lead? Or is it jus lt luck of the draw while recruiting.

  4. #24
    I don't run a guild, but I'm pretty involved in our recruitment process and can offer some insight on finding good raiders.

    Set up an application process and stick to it, even if it's just a free message board somewhere.

    You are not their personal theorycrafter, and they are supposed to have that figured out BEFORE applying. Don't sit there trying to work with someone who is obviously clueless, anyone dumb enough to app to a guild without their ducks already in a row is beyond help.

    Ask their age and what they do in RL. Stereotypes unfortunately exist for a reason. Someone who is 17, dropped out of high school and jobless is highly likely to run out of gameplay time halfway through raid.

    Don't just ask their guild history, look it up on using Wowprogress' e-stalking features. It's easy for someone to change their name and lie on this question to cover the fact that they've been booted from their last 5 guilds.

    The first thing to look at before any WoW-related things is the quality of the application. Did they give half-assed answers? If so, they'll probably give half-assed progression effort. Was their grammar unacceptably sloppy? Their rotation probably will be as well.

    Ask for a screenshot of their UI. Not so much to judge their choice of addons, but to see if they posses the minimal amount of computer proficiency it requires to press printsceen, paste into MS paint, and upload to imgur.

    Make them run a Speedtest and Pingtest! A raider is only as good as their internet connection, and no amount of raid awareness will get them out of the fire if they disconnect in it.

    Tell them the loot system up front, especially if it's LC. Make sure they are okay with the fact that they will, at some point in the future, lose a personal upgrade for the greater good of the raid.

  5. #25
    Ask their age and what they do in RL. Stereotypes unfortunately exist for a reason. Someone who is 17, dropped out of high school and jobless is highly likely to run out of gameplay time halfway through raid.
    Became dubious here

    Don't just ask their guild history, look it up on using Wowprogress' e-stalking features. It's easy for someone to change their name and lie on this question to cover the fact that they've been booted from their last 5 guilds.
    Almost stopped here

    The first thing to look at before any WoW-related things is the quality of the application. Did they give half-assed answers? If so, they'll probably give half-assed progression effort. Was their grammar unacceptably sloppy? Their rotation probably will be as well.
    Annnd... Here's where I stopped reading.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Ceria View Post
    Became dubious here

    Almost stopped here

    Annnd... Here's where I stopped reading.
    And I can assure you based on the quality of the original post, vs your response, as to which individual I'd rather have in my guild.

    Age is not always the best indicator of maturity: I know plenty of 30-40 year olds who act like they're 12; however, on *average* with the typical teenager vs. the typical 23+, or the typical 33+ these days, there is a fairly significant difference in how they will respond to adversity. This is not just in WoW, I see it every week in the soccer matches I referee from youth, to HS, to adult... even if at times the adults are more juvenile than the 10 year olds but I digress. It is not the teenagers fault either, it's just a phase we all go through at some point and there's plenty of accepted psychological studies backing up that assertion.

    Guild history: I want to know it when I'm evaluating an individual, much as I would on a job application as a hiring manager. If you left because of unreconcilable differences with your prior guild's leadership, OK; however, if you got booted because you were a douchebag or just rage-quit, if you treated your last guild like that, why would you treat mine any differently?

    Finally, quality of the application. While I don't agree that sloppy grammar trends with a sloppy priority system / rotation, a half-assed application is the same as a half-assed resume: thankfully we're in the online age otherwise it'd be a waste of a perfectly good tree. You get one shot to make a first impression, and these days for second and third tier guilds that's usually the application. If someone doesn't at least make the effort (it's really not that hard, it's not like they're asking you to recite decay chains for radioactive isotopes off the top of your head) to do that, how are they demonstrating that they remotely want to be part of your guild in any seriousness? I do agree someone who doesn't take any time in the application, probably won't be willing to take the requisite time needed to be a successful member of a guild.
    Last edited by Beachbum; 2011-08-05 at 06:17 AM.

  7. #27
    you will need immense amounts of patience and time. setup a fair dkp system that rewards people who come to progress raids and not boss kills. perhaps start with a 10man group to get a good core, while constantly recruiting.

    having excellent officers helps alot. otherwise you may burn out, and cease to care, which makes people leave.

    keep your sense of humour. its most important :P

    My Radio Broadcast: http://grooveshark.com/#!/dookleeto/broadcast feel free to come and listen

  8. #28
    The Patient Larcissa's Avatar
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    If you truly want to down all the content, which includes Heroic Raggy, you'll need a core team of really competent and geared players, which quite honestly speaking, it'll be hard to find 24 other people who can pull their weight. My 25 man raid came about slowly after me and a bunch of RL mates decided to form a guild and we slowly recruited and befriended people we could trust, and we formed a raid short after. Our raid comprises 20 people who i've played with since WOTLK, so it's easier I suppose.

    What you could do is, start off small, do 10 mans first, get your guild level up asap, because I know that raiders want the perks at the levels 20 onwards, and it's a very big pull factor for some people. When you feel the time is right, get another 10 man group going, after that, you can combine both groups to form your first 25 man group

    Also advertise in trade, you don't only want raiders, you want a large guild with casuals who will pump money into your GB via Cash Flow for your own guild repairs, raiders with repairs = happy raiders

    Set up rules for loot early on, DKP? Loot Council?

    Have set raid days and times, so people can organize their schedules and work around it, this is significantly more important in 25 man and less of an importance in 10 man. In 10 mans, we normally just raid when we feel like it, although it never happens now.

    Have fun! And good luck!
    I like being asian :3

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Ceria View Post
    Became dubious here

    Almost stopped here

    Annnd... Here's where I stopped reading.
    Your sound rebuttal and justifications have left me speechless.

    So did you actually have anything to say, or (as I suspect) are you just upset that I pointed out the sad-but-true age stereotypes of teen/preteen raiders? Yes, stereotypes exist, and yes, they are 100% justified when you are gambling with 24 other people's raiding time.

  10. #30
    Why would you want to make a 25-man raiding guild when you aren't even going to be able to attend most of the raids? Hell, why would you want to make a 25-man raiding guild in the first place, aside from maybe having a guaranteed raiding spot whenever you like?

    I'm not trying to be mean here but, if you have to ask, you're probably not going to succeed. Either step up your game so that you can earn a spot in another guild or just keep doing what you're doing. Starting a successful raiding guild is an incredible amount of work and, if you're not going to be taking an active and regular part in the raiding and leadership department, what's the point?

  11. #31
    It is a ton of work. You can start with a semi-regular PuG group and build from there, but it is going to take you a long time. Also, if you are the guild master and not around, your guild will splinter eventually. It is just the way things go.

    Good Raid Leader: Fair, time to burn, able to communicate effectively, knows the encounters and all class mechanics

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