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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Murava View Post
    Is their a 10m video? considering it's been killed in 10m by another guild already. Or did no one bother frapsing?
    The kill was frapsed. No one has bothered to edit and render yet it though. I'll try to get someone on it this weekend.

  2. #62
    Brewmaster Malefic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zYN View Post
    This is about as false as it gets. The requirements are much more lenient in the 10-man all around. If you got any kind of remotely sensible setup, P2 is a cake walk - especially since you have much more healing power per player in teh raid.
    Are you serious?

    I'm sorry, but wake up and smell the wood from the trees.

    To successfully do the AoE tactic on 10man you need a strong AoE setup, which is why yours involved 2x Boomkins, 1 Frost DK and a Demonology Warlock.

    Kinda getting pissed off that people are taking Paragons opinion on 10 man as the be all and end all of the difficulty of 10s. Most of the problem with 10s is the roster limitation, you've said it yourself that in order to be competitive in 10s you'd need to have 30 available characters to play with, not all 10mans have that, and that's the limitation/problem with 10mans. Ragnaros was significantly easier for you since you were able to take every buff possible without having to sacrifice anything, for example how I am having to do Rag HC as Destro due that being our only source of Replenishment. A 25man guild doesn't have that restriction when attempting a 10man raid.
    Last edited by Malefic; 2011-08-05 at 08:05 PM.

  3. #63
    Just taking Paragon's roster for both kills and the ppl aoeing:

    10m: 1 demo lock, 1 frost dk, 2 boomkins = 4 total which is 40% of the raid

    vs

    25m: 2 demo locks, 4 frost dks, 3 boomkins, 3 hunters, 3 spriests = 15 total which is 60% of the raid

    Interpret it however you want, but I am not surprised Paragon thinks the AoE on 10m is easier.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    10s get geared just as fast as 25s man even faster sometimes so this 10 man strict kill is pointless, 10 man is far easier than 25 man hc. A 25 man guild will have the same gear as the 10 man guild so it doesnt matter if you kill it on 10 or 25 man because no team has a better advantage on gear, its usually a matter of luck of what drops from the boss but the same ratio of gear per person drops on 10 and 25 man so a 10 man strict discussion is pointless since everyone gets the same gear anyway.
    A 25 man is less likely to have gear be DE'd or go to OS since they have a better spread of classes/specs, and they get more gear per person each kill. How exactly is a 10 man going to gear up faster outside of sheer RNG luck?

  5. #65
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    have you even done both 10 and 25 man, i have done both every week since the start and by far 10 man is faceroll compared to 25 man, my alt is just doing 10 mans and its pretty much as geared as my main doing 25 mans so before posting get your facts right.

    Its a fact 10 man is easier compared to 25 man apart from 1 encounter that is slightly harder on 10m, dont post when you have no clue on what your talking about.

    The reason there are more 25 man kills is because more ppl prefer to raid in 25 mans and the top guilds are all 25 man.
    Sounds like you have a couple people on your 25man roster who suck, and you're taking your 10 best to the 10mans...

  6. #66
    Can this not turn into endless 25m vs 10m, Paragon is entitled to their opinion and 10m teams are entitled to theirs. I'd rather discuss the particulars of strategies people are using in 10m even if it involves stacking two great boomkins, a lock, a every other aoe rogue, and a DK.

    If Paragon wanted to do everyone a favour they'd start a theoretical ideal 10m hardcore team for the next tier and have them race without any mingling with their 25m.

  7. #67
    Deleted
    A 25 man guild with 25 players will suffer same setup-problems as a 10 man guild with 10 players. How is it any different? Also, from an objective point of view the ONLY thing that can POSSIBLY be harder in 10 man is setup-restrictions. It is OBVIOUSLY a LOT harder to make 25 players communicate than it is making 10 players communicate. People claiming otherwise are retarded. And, anyways, how come all 10 man guilds are, apparently, suffering from these setup-restrictions? Is it prohibited to have 13-14 players in a 10 man guild with an alt each? I guess it is, 'cause having 14 people with an alt each would completely remove that fucking excuse that every 10 man guild is using.

    Also, claiming 10m Heroic Ragnaros is by any means harder than Heroic Ragnaros 25 man is complete, utter fucking bullshit seeing as 25 man Heroic Ragnaros has to be 3 or 4-healed compared to 10m Ragnaros which has to be 2-healed.

    And of course, doing the AoE-tactic requires a somehow AoE-heavy group. But it does so aswell in 25 man. Please wake up.
    Last edited by mmoc4d17ba87d4; 2011-08-05 at 10:44 PM. Reason: Too harsh language

  8. #68
    Brewmaster Malefic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meckie View Post
    A 25 man guild with 25 players will suffer same setup-problems as a 10 man guild with 10 players. How is it any fucking different? Also, from an objective point of view the ONLY thing that can POSSIBLY be harder in 10 man is setup-restrictions. It is OBVIOUSLY a LOT harder to make 25 players communicate than it is making 10 players communicate. People claiming otherwise are retarded. It is, obviously, a fact. And, anyways, how come all 10 man guilds are, apparently, suffering from these setup-restrictions? Is it prohibited to have 13-14 players in a 10 man guild with an alt each? I guess it is, 'cause having 14 people with an alt each would completely remove that fucking excuse that every 10 man guild is using for sucking.

    Also, claiming 10m Heroic Ragnaros is by any means harder than Heroic Ragnaros 25 man is complete, utter fucking bullshit seeing as 25 man Heroic Ragnaros has to be 3 or 4-healed compared to 10m Ragnaros which has to be 2-healed.

    And of course, doing the AoE-tactic requires a somehow AoE-heavy group. But hey, 10 man guilds, you know what? It does so as-fucking-well in 25 man. Please wake up.
    Please get your head out of 25mans' ass.

    Considering you're 2/7 HC and have yet to pull Rag on HC and only achieved 10/13 HC in T11 I think your opinion on a boss that you've yet to pull is insignificant. So without experience, please don't comment.
    Last edited by Malefic; 2011-08-05 at 08:57 PM.

  9. #69
    I clicked on this thread based on the OP, I'm in a strict 10man guild so I like to read what the top 10man guilds are saying. I wasn't too interested in Paragon's "10man kill" since it was 10 characters cherry-picked from a 25man raiding roster, anyone can see how cheesy that is.

    It sounds like hm rag 10man takes a pretty specific 10man comp, must be frustrating for actual 10man guilds. Sometimes I think back on "bring the player not the class" and have a good chuckle.

  10. #70
    Brewmaster Malefic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mostlyharmless View Post
    I clicked on this thread based on the OP, I'm in a strict 10man guild so I like to read what the top 10man guilds are saying. I wasn't too interested in Paragon's "10man kill" since it was 10 characters cherry-picked from a 25man raiding roster, anyone can see how cheesy that is.

    It sounds like hm rag 10man takes a pretty specific 10man comp, must be frustrating for actual 10man guilds. Sometimes I think back on "bring the player not the class" and have a good chuckle.
    It's not really setup specific, but using Paragon's tactic then yes, it is.

    I am not complaining about that, since my guild are using our own tactic for it and are passed P2 already.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Malefic View Post
    It's not really setup specific, but using Paragon's tactic then yes, it is.

    I am not complaining about that, since my guild are using our own tactic for it and are passed P2 already.
    Oh gotcha, that's really cool to hear. Must be rewarding to develop your own strategy!

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Malefic View Post
    It's not really setup specific, but using Paragon's tactic then yes, it is.

    I am not complaining about that, since my guild are using our own tactic for it and are passed P2 already.
    Where are you hitting a wall then? The p3 burn to only have 2 meteors, or beating the dreadflames in p4.
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  13. #73
    Deleted
    Paragon - 'We didn't need to stack the raid on 10m for AoE it's too ez'

    Paragon's DPS on 10m = 1 Demo Lock, 1 Frost DK, 2 Boomkins.

    I must say ever since Paragon killed Rag Heroic I have strongly disliked them because they've felt the need to consistently insult 10 man raiding.

  14. #74
    Mechagnome Exiztence's Avatar
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    Don't forget kids just because 25mans use their alts in raid to achieve desired effect, it is a thing unheard of in 10man and no strick 10 man guild would even consider using it.

  15. #75
    The same thing happened to me. I loved Paragon. But after they started bashing 10m the way they did...and here....in the forums, i have a huge dislike for them. Anyway, for the people asking "Who is morsei" is this thread, he is a LA player from Us-Ragnaros, from the alliance guild Bad karma. They didn't started raiding as soon as the servers where up (And they are idiots for it xD They could be Top 5 plus USA) .

  16. #76
    I love how paragon bashes 10 man raiding simply because 10 man raiders seem to be the most easily trolled people in wow now a days. OT: I don't think people should really be trying to copy strats from these world class guilds in the first place all its going to lead to is your guild attempting to do things in a fashion that is probably way beyond their skill level then complaining on the forums about how it doesn't work.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Silver
    "Now, you listen to me, James Hawkins. You got the makings of greatness in you, but you got to take the helm and chart your own course. Stick to it, no matter the squalls! And when the time comes you get the chance to really test the cut of your sails, and show what you're made of! Well, I hope I'm there, catching some of the light coming off you that day."

  17. #77
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Malefic View Post
    Please get your head out of 25mans' ass.

    Considering you're 2/7 HC and have yet to pull Rag on HC and only achieved 10/13 HC in T11 I think your opinion on a boss that you've yet to pull is insignificant. So without experience, please don't comment.
    My experience, or lack thereof, on HC Ragnaros is completely irrelevant. I haven't commented anything about that specific encounter that needs my personal experience as backup. I commented solely on the fact that 10 man has to be 2-healed while 25 man has to be 3 or 4. I never said 25 man HC Ragnaros is significantly harder than the 10m version - I wouldn't know - and it probably isn't. But I have a problem with narrowminded 10 man-players claiming that it 10 man Heroic Ragnaros is more tightly tuned, 'cause it obviously isn't in terms of DPS-requirements or healing-requirements.

    I expected a comment on my "And, anyways, how come all 10 man guilds are, apparently, suffering from these setup-restrictions? Is it prohibited to have 13-14 players in a 10 man guild with an alt each?". Exactly why does every 10 man, apparently, suffer from setup-problems while, apparently, no 25 man hardcore guild does? It is simply beyond me, 'cause it IS the excuse most 10 man guilds are using. It wasn't an insult to 10 man-players whatsoever. It was moreso a question to the 10 man-guilds.

    I'm not here to bash 10 man-raiders nor start a 10 vs 25-war. I have huge respect for both 10 man and 25 man guilds doing endgame-content.
    Last edited by mmoc4d17ba87d4; 2011-08-05 at 10:43 PM.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Malefic View Post
    Are you serious?

    I'm sorry, but wake up and smell the wood from the trees.

    To successfully do the AoE tactic on 10man you need a strong AoE setup, which is why yours involved 2x Boomkins, 1 Frost DK and a Demonology Warlock.

    Kinda getting pissed off that people are taking Paragons opinion on 10 man as the be all and end all of the difficulty of 10s. Most of the problem with 10s is the roster limitation, you've said it yourself that in order to be competitive in 10s you'd need to have 30 available characters to play with, not all 10mans have that, and that's the limitation/problem with 10mans. Ragnaros was significantly easier for you since you were able to take every buff possible without having to sacrifice anything, for example how I am having to do Rag HC as Destro due that being our only source of Replenishment. A 25man guild doesn't have that restriction when attempting a 10man raid.
    What restrictions? you can make your raiding roster as big as you want. there is no set limit for a 10 man roster. you can have 20 people or more if that is what it takes.

    10 mans are generaly speaking easier then 25 mans in firelands on almost every fight, roster limitation is a poor excuse really. Its the guild that decides the size of the roster not the raidsize.
    N

  19. #79
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zamiel View Post
    because 10 man raiders seem to be the most easily trolled people in wow now a days.
    Mages say 'HAAIIII!'

    :3

    *ahem*


    and can this thread please not be turned into another 10vs25 man debate... The OP was asking how 10 MAN guilds are progressing on the fight, since we're yet to see a strict 10 man guild actually kill Rag (iirc).



    Also @Diivil - Personally i'd love to see the 10 man vid (as i'm sure a bunch of other people would!). ^^
    Last edited by mmoc4daf775212; 2011-08-05 at 10:46 PM.

  20. #80
    I am Murloc!
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    This has the potential to be a good thread if people would stop derailing it. Keep your 10v25 debates to your fucking self.

    Personally we haven't gotten too far yet. Phase 1 and the first intermission is pretty much on lock down though. Things (like mentioned) fall apart right right before the second seed phase, or shortly after the first. A lot of this for us is just limited practice, so I am sure we can optimize more.

    Hopefully Sunday will give us a better reading of what kinda AoE is needed. Last we tried we only had Demo Lock, Frost DK and Shadow Priest.. which wasn't even close to enough. This time we will have Frost DK, Shadow Priest, Moonkin and MM Hunter.. which I believe will be enough.

    It's very restricted on composition from what I can tell. Our only real option for healers is Holy Paladin/Resto Shaman and Rest Shaman seem like absolute garbage on this fight due to the massive amount of movement. He is fine up to the point where we have to dance engulfing, heal tanks and heal people getting hit by molten elementals. This is when it normally falls apart.

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