What if Paladins Had an "Overpower" Ability?

[Divinator]

I know warriors have overpower, and that deathknights have something similar; rune strike i believe? However, would YOU mind ret/prot paladins having it? I know that the ret system is currently clunky, since all of our abilities are on a relativity long cd.

Crusader strike is like a warriros mortal strike (4.5), but after that, our only semi-damaging move is judgement (until we get 3 holy power). Warriors have consistent fillers such as slam (if specced into), Overpower, heroic strike, etc.

Deathknights as we all know, have a shit ton of abilities that can be fillers. Its just something that can possibly be used as a filler, and be learned at a level to help advancing players.

So maybe any attack thats usable after an opponent parries your attack. Not dodges, but parries, so its different than warriors, and give it a base 3 second cd. Call it simply, Counterattack or Righteous Blow.

What do you guys think?

[Kstud]

Righteously Divine Strike of Justice

[Deleted]

make repentance baseline and replace with that plz!
we arethe only class that has to 'spec into' to get a cc,
mages sheep baseline
shamies hex baseline
warlocks fear baseline
hunters traps baseline

gief us a filler that we don't have to hope rng has given us an aow proc for.

[Deleted]

Sorry but no.

Oh and dk's don't have baseline cc mate.

They should give ret paladins the option to apply spell crit debuff , instead of the 3% dmg buff though.

[shadowkras]

we arethe only class that has to 'spec into' to get a cc,

And what exactly warriors get as baseline? An AoE fear with no control, long cooldown and short duration?

[Samin]

We have exorcism as a reactive ability. Nothing else is overpower and runestrike is more a tanking ability and at least as frost never used because frost strike is simply better (and I guess as unholy you rather death coil with the RP)
I don't think we need more buttons to push to be fun.

[KahnOWhoopass]

Overpower is pretty exclusive to Arms, I suppose it might be useful if TG in PvP.
Warriors also need rage for all those "fillers", a dodged auto attack = no rage ges for 3+ sec (except from taking dmg).
Paladins have mana AND holy power. And most of your abilities can't be avoided/mitigated/resisted anyway.
You also don't need to equip a shield for divine protection.
You also stun for twice as long as warriors.
You also can cleanse yourselves and have Hand of Freedom.
You also have a CD to increase dmg w/o increasing the dmg you take.
You also have the ability to use 3 HP to keep up a +30% holy dmg buff every 24 seconds (holy damage = none resisted)

As for tankadins.
AoE abilities don't have a max number of targets.
Avenger's Shield > Heroic Throw to pull multiple casters.
Still have Inquisition and Avenging Wrath, can stack, don't cause you to take more dmg (prot war popping recklessness for threat/burn usually means fast tank death)


Seriously, it's like we've gone from everything being hunter loot, to everything needs to be a paladin ability.


P.S. Rebuke is baseline, not that retadins ever used it was it wasn't, but FFS lrn2interrupt in pvp AND pve.

[Nillo]

They should give ret paladins the option to apply spell crit debuff , instead of the 3% dmg buff though.

Which would totally make sense because rets are based around spell crit... ... ... no they're not.

[KahnOWhoopass]

As for tankadins.

.

Oh, and talented Judgement gives same debuff as Thunderclap, wins single target in terms of rotation.
Vindication > Demo shout as, again, part of rotation that actually deals threat. (crusader strike/HoR)

DKs have the same deal, applying their diseases = applying attk speed/dmg debuffs. Warriors have to actually choose between threat and debuffing.

[Deleted]

The Ret dps problem can be easily fixed with just this implementation : "Your Judgement and Holy Wrath spells now generates a charge of Holy Power".

[KahnOWhoopass]

The Ret dps problem can be easily fixed with just this implementation : "Your Judgement and Holy Wrath spells now generates a charge of Holy Power".

They used ot have a chance to generate one, but it got changed for the better IMO.
Divine Purpose

[meliancill]

khonwhoopers is yet another person who has never played ret and has no idea the problems that ret has.

ret needs somthing to use as a filler, i dont know what class you are but i bet you dont sit and auto attack 50% of the time ( and no im not joking ) i bet one of your main attacks ( judgement for ret ) dosnt crit for 7k max with a 7 second cd.

and your big point seems to be unresistable damage. but even then our damage is UNDER an equily geared warrior of death knights damage even though they use physicle damage. so our holy judgement crits less than your physicle heroic strike and has double the cd.

rets damage is broken, and rets need somthing to fill the rotation, because as it is now im tired of standing watching myself auto swing while i wait for cds to come up.

i have ben left out of 3 rbg guilds and rofled at by an ele shaman when i said lets do 2s, because i was ret, the fact that i have ben playing ret for 4 years means nothing, all they hear is ret and they wont even give me a chance to show them what i can do.

all of your points are given from an outside point of view, level a ret, play him in high end pvp ( rbgs or arena not pugs ) and you will think very differently about the spec.

you talk from a point of view of some one who has never actualy played rets, anyone who has played one will gladly give up everything you listed in exchange for strong sustained damage, a slow, and a real gap closer.

[Deleted]

all of your points are given from an outside point of view, level a ret, play him in high end pvp ( rbgs or arena not pugs ) and you will think very differently about the spec.

This immediately ruined your argument for me. I've played both warrior and ret paladin at 80 and 85 in PvP and PvE, and let me tell you. PvP ret does not need any improvement whatsoever, you have gap closers, silences, interrupts, stuns, movement restriction removers, CC, literally everything you could possibly need to win against anyone. So yes, you can complain "But I have to autoattack all the time!" - So what? Get more haste.

[meliancill]

This immediately ruined your argument for me. I've played both warrior and ret paladin at 80 and 85 in PvP and PvE, and let me tell you. PvP ret does not need any improvement whatsoever, you have gap closers, silences, interrupts, stuns, movement restriction removers, CC, literally everything you could possibly need to win against anyone. So yes, you can complain "But I have to autoattack all the time!" - So what? Get more haste.

then you sir have not played ret in high end pvp, random bgs or 1500 rbgs means nothing, when i cant brake 1700 with my ret paladin but i can blow 2200 with an arms warrior their is a basic problem with rets, that gap closer you are talking about isnt the same as charge / intercept / death grip / feral charge... do you know what the diff is? you can be slowed while its active, freedom will get purged by any class you need it against ( mage = spell steal. warlock = pet steal. hunter = trank shot ) so i would like to see you keep it up when you fight anyone who knows how to play a kiter. the 45% speed buff means nothing when the second you use it you are slowed for 50-60%, so in the end you still move 5-15% slower.

we have no silence so we are playing 2 different classes and i have no idea what you are talking about... our cc is 6 seconds on a 1 min cd and can be dispelled by all healers. our stunn lasts 6 seconds 1 min cd and again can be dispelled by all healers ( the only class in the game with a dispellable stun )

and anyone who stacks haste in pvp is a joke, and needs to learn the pvp stat priorities.

and after looking at your armory, you truely have no place to talk. 0 arena rating with 0 games played and 0 rbg rating with 0 games played. if you are going to talk about pvp class balance please have some skill in pvp.

[KahnOWhoopass]

khonwhoopers is yet another person who has never played ret and has no idea the problems that ret has.
...
all of your points are given from an outside point of view, level a ret, play him in high end pvp ( rbgs or arena not pugs ) and you will think very differently about the spec...
you talk from a point of view of some one who has never actualy played rets, anyone who has played one will gladly give up everything you listed in exchange for strong sustained damage, a slow, and a real gap closer.

I believe my accuracy of what each ability specifically does shows that I do know the class and spec pretty well. I'd even wager I am for familiar with ret paladins than you are with the English language.

Comparing heroic strike to judgement shows you seem to be more ignorant of warriors than you accuse me of being about paladins. Maybe it's because I'm more familiar with warriors, but filling in between CS CDs isn't really that frustrating when I'm my paladin. Really, it's pretty predictable, compared to periods of rage starvation. But hey, if you want something like Heroic Strike to fill in gaps, let it be identical, right down to the "costs 30% of your maximum mana".
This thread also seems to be geared about paladins not having an "overpower-like ability", meaning an attack that procs on dodge/parry that cannot be dodged/parried.... so your argument about mages/locks/hunters is another issue all together.

But hey, if you want to spear head a campaign to give up bubbles that make you immune, or the ability to instantly have full health from one instant, by all means, campaign for another attack. Good luck with that.

[terrahero]

Overpower is pretty exclusive to Arms, I suppose it might be useful if TG in PvP.
Warriors also need rage for all those "fillers", a dodged auto attack = no rage ges for 3+ sec (except from taking dmg).
Paladins have mana AND holy power. And most of your abilities can't be avoided/mitigated/resisted anyway.
You also don't need to equip a shield for divine protection.
You also stun for twice as long as warriors.
You also can cleanse yourselves and have Hand of Freedom.
You also have a CD to increase dmg w/o increasing the dmg you take.
You also have the ability to use 3 HP to keep up a +30% holy dmg buff every 24 seconds (holy damage = none resisted)

As for tankadins.
AoE abilities don't have a max number of targets.
Avenger's Shield > Heroic Throw to pull multiple casters.
Still have Inquisition and Avenging Wrath, can stack, don't cause you to take more dmg (prot war popping recklessness for threat/burn usually means fast tank death)


Seriously, it's like we've gone from everything being hunter loot, to everything needs to be a paladin ability.


P.S. Rebuke is baseline, not that retadins ever used it was it wasn't, but FFS lrn2interrupt in pvp AND pve.

-Unless this was changed very recently, ive tested it, and a dodged or parried autoattack DOES generate Rage. Only a MISS results in no Rage being generated.
-Crusaderstrike is Rets "resource builder". But unlike all the other resource builders a dodge or parry does not generate anything but does invoke a cooldown.
-Our divine protection doesnt need a shield, it also mitigates only half the damage.
-Our stun has a 1min cooldown with a 6sec stun, Throwndown has a 45sec cd with a 5sec stun. A far beter stun-to-cooldown ratio then HoJ. Not counting the stuns from Charge and/or Intercept.
-You have an instant gapcloser and a snare/root.
-So do warriors, they also have cooldowns that doesnt increase damage taken. Deadly Calm increases the damage you do over a period, no drawbacks. Inner Rage also allows you to deal more damage over a period without any drawbacks to the damage you take. Death Wish only makes you take 5% more damage and this can be fixed with a glyph. So only Recklessness really increases the damage you take, wich offsets the huge benefit it grants.
The 3HP buff is, iirc, dispellable. And unlike SnD and SR it doesnt increase passive autoattack damage, but is needed to make your abilities hit anything remotely mentionable as all abilities are balanced around using with Inq. up, they are very weak without it. Thus adding another hinderance in Rets combat system.

[Thedansker]

Retribution paladins should not have this kind of ability, it's not necessary to have filler spells or abilities IMO, they are doing fine DMG atm atleast in PvP, I can't tell for PvE

[Exauras]

It'll be a long time before you see repentance as baseline. They don't like for tanks to have CC.

With overpower, its not that strong of an ability in its current form. If you're dps, you're expertise capped probably, and you're close enough to exp cap as a tank, with the exception of parries from the front. If you want a Ret OP clone to proc from censure like OP does for arms, then you might as well just play arms. No need to make the classes similar.

I wouldn't mind an on block proc, change reckoning to an ability proc, but the tanking rotation already has so much going on that something like that wouldn't mesh well in the current state.

You might as well ask for Ret Kitty, Prot Bear, and Holy Tree shapeshifting abilities too. Anything that makes classes more identical would be most welcome.
/sarcasm

[Pool of the Dead]

I believe my accuracy of what each ability specifically does shows that I do know the class and spec pretty well. I'd even wager I am for familiar with ret paladins than you are with the English language.

Comparing heroic strike to judgement shows you seem to be more ignorant of warriors than you accuse me of being about paladins. Maybe it's because I'm more familiar with warriors, but filling in between CS CDs isn't really that frustrating when I'm my paladin. Really, it's pretty predictable, compared to periods of rage starvation. But hey, if you want something like Heroic Strike to fill in gaps, let it be identical, right down to the "costs 30% of your maximum mana".
This thread also seems to be geared about paladins not having an "overpower-like ability", meaning an attack that procs on dodge/parry that cannot be dodged/parried.... so your argument about mages/locks/hunters is another issue all together.

But hey, if you want to spear head a campaign to give up bubbles that make you immune, or the ability to instantly have full health from one instant, by all means, campaign for another attack. Good luck with that.

A bubble that makes us immune, for the whole of 8 secs, and cause us to do 50% less damage, which can be broken by warriors or priests, and in that 8 secs if we heal we get maybe 1-2 heals off, for nearly 70% of our mana, and the ability to heal to 100%, which is on a 10min CD.

the Saddest thing is, in PvP Warriors heal much much MUCH more than ret pallies can and do.

I've seen my Ret PvP partner fall back to heal a FC and all he got out of it was a 12k WoG, and 2 10k flash of lights, before he was oom/out of holy power.

YET, i have seen a warrior with Blood Craze/enraged regenaration/second wind heal from 20%-100% in around 8 secs.

It is fucking pants on head retarded that a class with as much utility as a warrior has sooo much passive healing, even moreso than a "hybrid" class that has baseline healing spells.

[Jazzhands]

This immediately ruined your argument for me. I've played both warrior and ret paladin at 80 and 85 in PvP and PvE, and let me tell you. PvP ret does not need any improvement whatsoever, you have gap closers, silences, interrupts, stuns, movement restriction removers, CC, literally everything you could possibly need to win against anyone. So yes, you can complain "But I have to autoattack all the time!" - So what? Get more haste.

Sounds like Rets are the new frost mages. wait....

We have no silence as Ret, only a melee range interrupt.

Getting more haste would be an over all loss to our already poor DPS.

And Ret needs a ton of improvement for pvp, probably more so then pve. It's in a very poor state for pvp. Our damage is pretty poor outside of CDs, and when we pop CDs wings just gets stolen or we get CC'd, then go back to doing our pitiful damage. And we lack probably the most important thing for a melee class: A snare. Long Arm of the Law is slightly useful as a gap closer, but no where near as useful as a charge or DG, and it effectively gives us a dead zone like hunters use to have, only it's a lot easier to stay in. We can do fine in random BGs, but in anything competitive, Ret's are very underrepresented and easily counterable when we might actually be a threat.

Lower the damage of our procs, get rid of the horrid thing called inquisition, and give us fillers for single target that aren't AoE abilities, that actually do decent damage. Oh, and give us a damn snare.