Page 1 of 19
1
2
3
11
... LastLast
  1. #1
    Pandaren Monk Iron Dome's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    1,904

    American education system - your solutions

    NOTE: I AM NOT HERE TO BASH AMERICA. I AM ONLY DISCUSSING THE PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM.

    All right,

    So many people dislike the American public education system. It's a big failure. America has one of the highest dropout rates in developed countries, and the intelligence level is very low compared to other developed countries.

    I think a big thing in America is that they emphasize memorization too much. The next year, you'll forget most of it, but remember the main details, if you remember it.

    Also, some classes have no practical value. While calculus may make you think, they should make a Logic class also, which is much more practical.

    I also don't think that America stresses the importance of education enough. Students aren’t expected to meet high standards, and the process of education takes precedence over analyzing education results in policy-making circles.

    Also, I believe tenure is a big barrier to the education system.

    So what do you think? What are your solutions? I'm very interested in hearing.

    Also, I've gone to school in America, but it was a private school. I was raised up to value education, it's kinda in my culture, so maybe that's why. In elementary school, i went to school from 8:00 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. In high school, i went to school from 7:10 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. (4:00 on wednesday, but i would take an extracurricular that day, like engineering). In my freshie year, i had a 99.5 average first semester and a 99.55 average second semester. I don't remember the other years. So I think a big part also is based on values.

  2. #2
    Fluffy Kitten Dacien's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    9,069
    It's funny how private schools put out better test scores than the socialist... ahem, sorry, the public schools do.

    Privatize the school system.

  3. #3
    Titan apepi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Mostly harmless
    Posts
    12,622
    Yeah I agree that it is to much based on memorization, people focus to much on learning about something instead of learning how to do something. I think we should do RST(real stimulated test), where if you wanted to learn the are a a square, the teacher would give them a real square and they would use that to find it out instead of just pen and paper. Give it a real idea that it is real and how it can be used, not just an image of it, not just learning a certain formula and you have to plug the numbers in to figure it out, let them figure out the numbers.

    I am in school right now, and I could do good at it but I do not, not be cause it is hard or such but because it would be a waste. I could learn more stuff from just staying on my computer then waste time at school. Also the value of philosophy in school astounds me, it is such a good subject to learn but no one cares about it....
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  4. #4
    The Patient the kins man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Murfreesboro, TN
    Posts
    274
    Honestly, the problem is home environment. I'm currently worknig on my masters in elementary education, and I have worked as an aid in both elementary and middle school settings. The students who do well, typically come from a two-parent household with both parents having a high level of education. What you are seeing so often now, is students who are a result of a drunken night, or a busted condom of some 19 year old girl, and her 25 year old loser "boyfriend." In a 6th grade class I worked in, 13 of 24 students were from single parent households, with that parent having to work, often leaving the child alone for hours on end. Because of this, there was no accountability on the part of the student, on whether or not they had completed their homework, studied for a test, etc.

    Now, there is not really a way to fix that, but it is the root of the problem. People like to blame the educational system, principals, teachers, school board, etc when more often than not its because the parents don't care what the child does with their life. However, the emphasis of standardized testing needs to be diminished. No Child Left Behind is one of the greatest things, and one of the worst things to ever happen to education. I say that from the standpoint, of what this act wants to accomplish is noble, and what it should be, but how it tries to accomplish these goals is the wrong way.

    That being said, the best way to educate children, is to stimulate them, emotionally and mentally (and occasionally, using some form of physical stimulation, for example, when reading the book Hatchet, by Gary Paulsen, the 6th grade teacher took the class outside, and we started "bonfires" using flint and tinder.) An energitic teacher is more likely to suceed than a teacher who simply writes up on the board everything you need to know. The problem is, so few teachers want to put this type of effort into their teaching. (and thats where you find the divide between good teachers and bad ones, the good ones put the effort in, conducting lessons that a student would typically not expect a teacher to give, in a way that is unique.)

    I know that this is wall of text, omg, qq more, but I prefer to saving my good "writing" for all the papers I have to write on the topic. (Keeping my fingers crossed on publication about a paper I wrote discussing homophobia in the classroom...)

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    It's funny how private schools put out better test scores than the socialist... ahem, sorry, the public schools do.

    Privatize the school system.
    This is one of the biggest problems right here. Testing. Standardized testing is bullshit that favors those who think within very strict confines.

  6. #6
    Encourage free thought for once? Most schooling nowadays isn't set up to foster actual intelligence but instead to reinforce traditional systems upon people, those who act or think differently are punished or end up dreadfully bored.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    It's funny how private schools put out better test scores than the socialist... ahem, sorry, the public schools do.

    Privatize the school system.
    I went to a private school for my school time (not in America though) and my teachers were a lot better then some I had in college. I can only imagine how they are in public schools. Even if your study morale is low you know that your parents pay big money for you to go to that school so you better do well. In a public school you dont have that kind of pressure.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by blackangel209 View Post
    This is one of the biggest problems right here. Testing. Standardized testing is bullshit that favors those who think within very strict confines.
    Actually I destroyed standardized tests and I worked out problems in a way that outright befuddled my teachers, usually resulted in me getting sent up to advanced courses then promptly being sent back to the regular classes. Standardized tests are easy...period. People who fail at standardized tests tend to lack logic or the ability to due anything besides recite EXACTLY what they're teachers taught them in classes earlier.

  9. #9
    Pandaren Monk Iron Dome's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    1,904
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    It's funny how private schools put out better test scores than the socialist... ahem, sorry, the public schools do.

    Privatize the school system.
    Well, Israel is a socialist country (bear in mind there are differnet levels of the political spectrum. This isn't Nazism. Hitler even stated he was upset that the word socialism was put into the Nazi name), and has some of the highest intelligence ratings.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Israel According to the Webometrics ranking, six of Israel's universities place in the top 100 schools of Asia.[9] Four universities place in the top 150 in the world according to the Shanghai Jiao Tong University Academic Ranking of World Universities, and three are in the Times Higher Education-QS World University Rankings (i.e. amongst the "Top 200 World Universities"); see further under List of universities and colleges in Israel.
    In addition, Israeli universities are among 100 top world universities in science and engineering: mathematics (TAU, Hebrew University and Technion); physics (TAU, Hebrew University and Weizmann Institute of Science); chemistry (TAU, Hebrew University and Technion); computer science (TAU, Hebrew University, Weizmann Institute of Science, BIU and Technion); [10] Engineering (Technion); [11] Life sciences (Hebrew University). [12]

    In the social sciences, TAU and the Hebrew University rank in the top 100,[13] these universities are also ranked in the top 100 for economics; [10] also for economics, Israel as a country is ranked 23rd on RePec's Country and State Ranking.


    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/145886 Israel's delegation to the International Physics Olympiad returned home Tuesday, bringing home five medals – 2 gold, 2 silver, and 1 bronze.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewbusha View Post
    Well, Israel is a socialist country (bear in mind there are differnet levels of the political spectrum. This isn't Nazism. Hitler even stated he was upset that the word socialism was put into the Nazi name), and has some of the highest intelligence ratings.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Israel According to the Webometrics ranking, six of Israel's universities place in the top 100 schools of Asia.[9] Four universities place in the top 150 in the world according to the Shanghai Jiao Tong University Academic Ranking of World Universities, and three are in the Times Higher Education-QS World University Rankings (i.e. amongst the "Top 200 World Universities"); see further under List of universities and colleges in Israel.
    In addition, Israeli universities are among 100 top world universities in science and engineering: mathematics (TAU, Hebrew University and Technion); physics (TAU, Hebrew University and Weizmann Institute of Science); chemistry (TAU, Hebrew University and Technion); computer science (TAU, Hebrew University, Weizmann Institute of Science, BIU and Technion); [10] Engineering (Technion); [11] Life sciences (Hebrew University). [12]

    In the social sciences, TAU and the Hebrew University rank in the top 100,[13] these universities are also ranked in the top 100 for economics; [10] also for economics, Israel as a country is ranked 23rd on RePec's Country and State Ranking.


    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/145886 Israel's delegation to the International Physics Olympiad returned home Tuesday, bringing home five medals – 2 gold, 2 silver, and 1 bronze.
    These have more to do with culture then the actual school systems in question, you know that...or at least you should know that.

  11. #11
    Pandaren Monk Iron Dome's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    1,904
    Quote Originally Posted by Notalent View Post
    These have more to do with culture then the actual school systems in question, you know that...or at least you should know that.
    Yes, i'm just saying it doesn't make a differnece socialist or not.

  12. #12
    Incoming Flame!!!


    I blame the students. They want to drop out? Their own fault. If they're in high school and they still don't realize how important education is, there is no one to blame but them.

    I'm not saying there shouldn't be adjustments to the educational system, but I find it by no means to be the major problem.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Notalent View Post
    Actually I destroyed standardized tests and I worked out problems in a way that outright befuddled my teachers, usually resulted in me getting sent up to advanced courses then promptly being sent back to the regular classes. Standardized tests are easy...period. People who fail at standardized tests tend to lack logic or the ability to due anything besides recite EXACTLY what they're teachers taught them in classes earlier.
    Or they choke on tests. Or they get bored and let their mind wander. I also destroyed any standardized tests I was given, but that didn't stop me from realizing how incredibly stupid the very idea that everyone can learn in the same ways and at the same pace is. I also considered dropping out of high school because I pretty much just stopped learning anything of real life value. Not because I was stupid, but because I had either learned everything they had to teach or the teachers were horribly incompetent at their jobs.

    All they teach now are "standards." They no longer teach anyone to prepare for life, just to prepare for more tests.
    Last edited by blackangel209; 2011-08-05 at 03:28 AM.

  14. #14
    the best solution for u.s. education is to get rid of the U.S. department of education, and install state ran classical educational systems. with optional homeschooling assistance. this will help with government spending (by reducing the size of federal government), and it will improve educational standards. also classical education is far less memorization, and much more philosophy, reasoning, critical thinking, ect.

    the classical educational model is by far superior to current educational systems in place in the u.s.

    current models institute an educational system based on employment in a debt based society. where as classical education promotes overall intelligence.

    The Trivium method: (pertains to mind) - the elementary three.

    — [1] General Grammar, [2] Formal Logic, [3] Classical Rhetoric
    The Trivium: Grammar (Knowing), logic (understandng), rhetoric (wisdom) - the art of learning AND thinking.

    The Quadrivium:
    — [4] Arithmetic, [5] Geometry, [6] Music, and [7] Astronomy.

    The Quadrivium (which pertains to Matter & Quantity)- the advanced four.

    [4] MATHEMATICS —
    Number in itself, which is a pure abstraction; that is, outside of space and time.

    [5] GEOMETRY —
    Number in space.

    [6] MUSIC OR HARMONIC THEORY —
    Number in time.

    [7] ASTRONOMY —
    Number in space and time.
    a. Number
    b. Geometry
    c. Harmonics
    d. Cosmology

    the trivium and quadrivium make up the 7 liberal arts, and the foundation to all knowledge. in todays educational system we do not learn in this fashion, we are taught to memorize so we do not seek actual truth, discover anything new, or become leaders of men. the current educational system is a tool used to enslave the masses, and keep actual knowledge away from who those in power deem "less desirable"

    i encourage you to do some research on the classical educational model, and compare it to todays educational model.

    your greatest philosophers, thinkers, and inventers all were provided a classical education. this is no coincidence.
    Last edited by ThePalidius; 2011-08-05 at 03:30 AM.

  15. #15
    When your only goal is just to get them a high school diploma, and not to actually educate and inform, you get a failed educational system.

    I say this only out of my own experience with the public schools in my own homestate, obviously. Can't say if it's the same elsewhere.

  16. #16
    Pandaren Monk Iron Dome's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    1,904
    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    Yeah I agree that it is to much based on memorization, people focus to much on learning about something instead of learning how to do something. I think we should do RST(real stimulated test), where if you wanted to learn the are a a square, the teacher would give them a real square and they would use that to find it out instead of just pen and paper. Give it a real idea that it is real and how it can be used, not just an image of it, not just learning a certain formula and you have to plug the numbers in to figure it out, let them figure out the numbers.

    I am in school right now, and I could do good at it but I do not, not be cause it is hard or such but because it would be a waste. I could learn more stuff from just staying on my computer then waste time at school. Also the value of philosophy in school astounds me, it is such a good subject to learn but no one cares about it....
    Hmm, in my school i always found philosophy very interesting. Unique subject. And yeah, i agree with the rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by the kins man View Post
    Honestly, the problem is home environment. I'm currently worknig on my masters in elementary education, and I have worked as an aid in both elementary and middle school settings. The students who do well, typically come from a two-parent household with both parents having a high level of education. What you are seeing so often now, is students who are a result of a drunken night, or a busted condom of some 19 year old girl, and her 25 year old loser "boyfriend." In a 6th grade class I worked in, 13 of 24 students were from single parent households, with that parent having to work, often leaving the child alone for hours on end. Because of this, there was no accountability on the part of the student, on whether or not they had completed their homework, studied for a test, etc.

    Now, there is not really a way to fix that, but it is the root of the problem. People like to blame the educational system, principals, teachers, school board, etc when more often than not its because the parents don't care what the child does with their life. However, the emphasis of standardized testing needs to be diminished. No Child Left Behind is one of the greatest things, and one of the worst things to ever happen to education. I say that from the standpoint, of what this act wants to accomplish is noble, and what it should be, but how it tries to accomplish these goals is the wrong way.

    That being said, the best way to educate children, is to stimulate them, emotionally and mentally (and occasionally, using some form of physical stimulation, for example, when reading the book Hatchet, by Gary Paulsen, the 6th grade teacher took the class outside, and we started "bonfires" using flint and tinder.) An energitic teacher is more likely to suceed than a teacher who simply writes up on the board everything you need to know. The problem is, so few teachers want to put this type of effort into their teaching. (and thats where you find the divide between good teachers and bad ones, the good ones put the effort in, conducting lessons that a student would typically not expect a teacher to give, in a way that is unique.)

    I know that this is wall of text, omg, qq more, but I prefer to saving my good "writing" for all the papers I have to write on the topic. (Keeping my fingers crossed on publication about a paper I wrote discussing homophobia in the classroom...)
    True, and well, that's a fault of America though! Teen pregnancies in America are 2x as high as Canada, 7x as high as France, and 12x as high as Japan.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackangel209 View Post
    This is one of the biggest problems right here. Testing. Standardized testing is bullshit that favors those who think within very strict confines.
    And also IQ tests.

  17. #17
    Titan apepi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Mostly harmless
    Posts
    12,622
    Quote Originally Posted by Notalent View Post
    Actually I destroyed standardized tests and I worked out problems in a way that outright befuddled my teachers, usually resulted in me getting sent up to advanced courses then promptly being sent back to the regular classes. Standardized tests are easy...period. People who fail at standardized tests tend to lack logic or the ability to due anything besides recite EXACTLY what they're teachers taught them in classes earlier.
    But that is only if they where taught that certain thing, it is really random....And if in the past all the smart people had to do is remember what the past people thought about then we would not be here today.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewbusha View Post
    NOTE: I AM NOT HERE TO BASH AMERICA. I AM ONLY DISCUSSING THE PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM.

    All right,

    So many people dislike the American public education system. It's a big failure. America has one of the highest dropout rates in developed countries, and the intelligence level is very low compared to other developed countries.

    I think a big thing in America is that they emphasize memorization too much. The next year, you'll forget most of it, but remember the main details, if you remember it.

    Also, some classes have no practical value. While calculus may make you think, they should make a Logic class also, which is much more practical.

    I also don't think that America stresses the importance of education enough. Students aren’t expected to meet high standards, and the process of education takes precedence over analyzing education results in policy-making circles.

    Also, I believe tenure is a big barrier to the education system.

    So what do you think? What are your solutions? I'm very interested in hearing.

    Also, I've gone to school in America, but it was a private school. I was raised up to value education, it's kinda in my culture, so maybe that's why. In elementary school, i went to school from 8:00 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. In high school, i went to school from 7:10 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. (4:00 on wednesday, but i would take an extracurricular that day, like engineering). In my freshie year, i had a 99.5 average first semester and a 99.55 average second semester. I don't remember the other years. So I think a big part also is based on values.

    The main problem is that the educational system is designed for the workforce of 20years ago. When people could be expected to have a modicum of education, and be hireable for jobs that payed a decent wage. But with the decimation of the manufacturing sector from outsourcing, the only kinda of jobs left are service, administrative, and niche technical jobs. With most students out of high school only qualified to fill service jobs. (telemarketing, front desk, cleaning svc. etc. )

    To fix this, we have to do the following:
    1. Change the school year. It's based on the agrarian calendar which is useless, unless you live in Ohio or Kansas. It doesn't really apply to the rest of the country. It should be two terms, evenly divided with two major breaks, one for Christmas/Hanukkah, and a small summer break.

    2. Math and Science education must be paramount above all others, with fully half their education devoted to it, instead of them being added to an already crowded schedule. English, History, Music, Art, Gym. Those need to be secondary, and with the exception of English, they should be limited to student that just cannot keep up with Math/Science.

    3. Which leads me to... Grade level admissions exams. No more coasting on generous teachers. If you want to advance a grade, you must prove that you know the material.

    4. Some schools offer a study period... which in practical terms is a free period to goof-off. That should be replaced with an "independent study" period, where the student is required to study any material independently, with the teacher acting solely as an advisor. The difference is that at the end of the semester, they'd be required to submit some form of work. (report or project) This would teach students how to learn on their own time, instead of waiting for teacher to spoon-feed them information.

  19. #19
    and yet, America has the best universities in the world.. and it's not even close..

  20. #20
    The Patient the kins man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Murfreesboro, TN
    Posts
    274
    Quote Originally Posted by xenoz View Post
    4. Some schools offer a study period... which in practical terms is a free period to goof-off. That should be replaced with an "independent study" period, where the student is required to study any material independently, with the teacher acting solely as an advisor. The difference is that at the end of the semester, they'd be required to submit some form of work. (report or project) This would teach students how to learn on their own time, instead of waiting for teacher to spoon-feed them information.
    That would be incredible! I always found that I learned best something that I WANTED to learn, as compared to being force-fed "do a project on this"

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •