Dynamically Sized Raids - couple of ideas

[Deleted]

There was the idea to have raid encounters be dynamically scaled according to raid size, as long as they are between 10 and 25 players. For example, 11 would be accepted, 17 would be accepted, 9 not.

It is "politically" possible since they already allow 10 and 25 players, numbers in between do not have "social" problems, it's mainly technical.

A lot of people claim it is impossible to dynamically alter the raid encounter since it will be hard to set up such an algorithm.

However, couple of ideas that may remedy it:

1. Statically determined raid encounters: This is a very secure way since it really changes nothing in terms of way of game design. The encounter is simply designed for 10, and then for 25, and then for 24, and then for 11 etc. The raid leader only has to select the number before entering the raid.
   Severe problems: Complexity in thinking about the game.
   Enormous advantage: everything is in theory perfect in terms of encounter setup because blizzard has statically determined it correctly.
   Another problem: More work for Blizzard, more things may go wrong [by mistake, bugs].
   
   
2. Dynamically scaled encounters with "smart debufs" on the boss: This expands on the "have an algorithm that sets up the boss automatically" by being smarter while in game. For example the encounter detects that there are 3 healers healing on the internal healing meters: do more damage to the tank.
   Severe problems: this may make some encounters easier to exploit since it sounds difficult to setup perfectly and for all sizes.
   
   
3. Dynamically scaled encounters with a short ennouncement before the raid: e.g. the encounter detects you have 17 players. Encounter reports in a /yell "BETH'TILAC PREPARES 4 DRONES AND 6 SPINNERS" or something like that.

[Jurwi]

Nah, there's just too much variables. So many things could go wrong so easily. Not gonna happen.

[Deleted]

^ I don't really think it's possible right now. Just trying to see if some brainstorming can bring some good ideas and who knows, maybe in the distant future it may work, or, it may bring something partial in the game.

[Verdris]

Why not play the game within the bounds of its design rather than makes things more difficult for everyone by wrapping encounters in arbitrary constraints?

[Wilderness]

I think its hard enough to balance between 2 set sizes. Having it scale would just create way too many variables and issues, with a TON of work needed to make it work somewhat successfully for really not much of a gain.

[schippie]

Nope wont happen.

There are way many variables this way. Then the raids would need to scale with the amount of tanks 2+ healers 3+ dps 5+ . And that is way to hard to make in anyway even fair. And way to much effort.

[Saoirsea]

This would be a cool idea in my opinion, but you hit the major point there is many ways to exploit the scaling.

The ratio of healers is generally speaking 1:3.5 dps. So that brings about an issue, you will eventually reach a magic number where you can decide to bring a extra dps or a extra healer. If you bring a extra dps where the bosses health is only partially scaled with the dps and not fully scaled with the extra dps. So for example the boss is scaled that you need to bring an extra 6k dps, so if you pull those number out of your existing dps then you can bring a extra healer. You have the same issue with your healer where the healer only needs to put out 6k HPS to keep up with the scaling of the boss. Keep in mind the numbers I am using for dps and hps are purely theoretical.

So ideally yes the dynamic scaling of a boss fight would be pretty cool, but for it to actually work blizzard would have to create a "smart scale." In the "smart scale" each individual category of each boss encounter scales with the number of each associated role. This is more related to healers and dps, tanks change the entire mechanics of most fights. Then brings about the issue of any healer with dps offspecs being listed as a healer and then just switching specs in the instance itself. I couldn't imagine the difficulty of installing a "smart scale" that would detect any spec changing on top of the scaling to fit the number of each role.

I guess theoretically speaking it is possible to come up with a program that could do this but honestly the saying "Don't fix what ain't broke" comes to mind. There really isn't a huge problem with 10 mans and 25 mans. So I never see blizzard putting in this mechanic.

[vizzle]

No. It wouldn't work.

There are just too many things to be said, that I don't know where to start. How would a raid encounter be different from 10man and 11man? More damage? More health? More adds? How would you scale it properly so that it would be equally difficult on 10man and 11man? You wouldn't be able to.

WHat would be the difference between 10man Nefarian HC and 11man Nefarian HC? More adds?

It would just be stupid, and then people would be doing 11man/12man/13man/10man on certain encounters because that's the easiest way to do it.

[Saoirsea]

It would just be stupid, and then people would be doing 11man/12man/13man/10man on certain encounters because that's the easiest way to do it.

This exactly.

[Scratches]

I think its hard enough to balance between 2 set sizes. Having it scale would just create way too many variables and issues, with a TON of work needed to make it work somewhat successfully for really not much of a gain.

^What he said.

It makes sense and it is doable, but seeing how Blizzard can't even get player ability scaling right (*cough*low-lvl pvp*cough*), this would just be an absolute nightmare.

That said, it is a very cool (and good) idea, and I would love to see it. Shame it just wouldn't be seen in WoW...

edit for clarification: Automatic scaling has already been done before, even in other Blizzard games (Diablo2), so it's absolutely not "too many variables." It's just "too many variables, for this team."

[timoseewho]

Simply too much work, Blizzard doesn't have enough time for their champagne parties already.

[seam]

It would just be stupid, and then people would be doing 11man/12man/13man/10man on certain encounters because that's the easiest way to do it.

Dang it, stole my line.

"Ok, DPS#5, sorry, but this fight is a joke with 9 people. You're out for the fight."

[Deleted]

Simply too much work, Blizzard doesn't have enough time for their champagne parties already.

That's what I tend to believe too. People would simply be confused and Blizzard would find it hard to balance it.

But on the theoretical side, I'm very disappointed about people believing it is impossible. We are the human race that went to the moon and made World of Warcraft. It is obviously possible to make such an algorithm. Hard for Blizzard or confusing to you does not mean impossible.

It is in theory possible to be done correctly and balanced and unexploitable, it'll just may be confusing to you or blizzard may have too much work, simple as that.

[Deleted]

where is the threshold between needing a 3rd tank which you do in 25 but only 2 tanks which you do in 10,

all 10 man guilds would push it to that limit in order to obtain more loot while retaining the smaller size.

also there would have to be loot thresholds that pwopld would use. for example if 1 items drops per 5 people in the raid you would get mostly just the 10/15/20/25 sizes used.

also how does the game check for that?
10-14, 15-19, 20-24, 25-25? or
10-10, 11-15, 16-20, 21-25?

to many variables. but i wouldn't mind there being specific 15's or 20's.

[Zka]

You can't dynamically size raids, mostly because there are lots of things that are granular: number of roles, raid cds, interrupts, etc. You can't have 1.5 interrupts or 2.34 tanks. Can't have 3.3 adds spawning, only 3 or 4... Even currently, THESE are the main problems between 10 and 25 difficulty. By making it all dynamical you would encounter these problems even more.

I really hope Blizzard will go with ONE raid size in the next expansion. We don't need this 10/25 shit, it's bleeding.

[UunaPriest]

Setup for 10man and 25man.
Linear Interpolation of damage output, boss health, and add health for all group sizes in between.
Done.
However I doubt this will be done any time soon, however it would be nice simply because it would be easier (as a 10man raider) to keep extras on the roster.

[Deleted]

Setup for 10man and 25man.
Linear Interpolation of damage output, boss health, and add health for all group sizes in between.
Done.
However I doubt this will be done any time soon, however it would be nice simply because it would be easier (as a 10man raider) to keep extras on the roster.

Most of all, it would be possible to aim for a 17 or 18 man roster so it would be possible to go with 22 or with 12 people. It would be nearly impossible to not have a raid.

[Zka]

Setup for 10man and 25man.
Linear Interpolation of damage output, boss health, and add health for all group sizes in between.

The problem is that these are only a very few of all the factors that define the difficulty of an encounter.
And these are the very few that you can interpolate easily, but what about the granular resources I mentioned above? How do you solve that? There will be raid sizes that are just too easy or just too hard because you can't have a fraction of something.
Dynamical raid size is definitely possible, but the results would be very underwhelming. Not worth the trouble.

[Deleted]

Nice idea but it won't happen.

A general bug i have with WoW and its community is that everyone seems to think the games sole purpose is to cater to their specific situation and needs.

The problem is, Blizzard more often than not, bows to such behavior instead of stamping their foot down and saying: "This is the game we made, it follows these rules, DEAL WITH IT!"

Blizzard needs to spend less time catering to everyone and should focus on making a good game.

[UunaPriest]

Nice idea but it won't happen.

A general bug i have with WoW and its community is that everyone seems to think the games sole purpose is to cater to their specific situation and needs.

The problem is, Blizzard more often than not, bows to such behavior instead of stamping their foot down and saying: "This is the game we made, it follows these rules, DEAL WITH IT!"

Blizzard needs to spend less time catering to everyone and should focus on making a good game.

So what you're saying is they should bow to what you want, and not to what anyone else wants? :P