1. #1061
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Ah, now we've moved on to very similar people stating that betas aren't for getting feedback on a game, that it's too late to make changes to a game, etc. This thread is a continual wonder as a challenge of how hard I can facepalm myself.

    Sure closed betas are just illusions for marketing, because that's why changes are made to address specific concerns and bugs that come up on top of the game launching many times vastly different than it appeared in beta right? Or is that just coincidence?
    BAD WOLF

  2. #1062
    Quote Originally Posted by SirRobin View Post
    So how would you classify Mythic adding Keeps to WAR due to tester feedback?
    Was it a bug missed by testers?
    Quote Originally Posted by SirRobin View Post
    Or the inevitable "rushed" content that didn't get much of an Alpha because the developer is trying to make deadlines?
    You said it - rushed content. It will be tested on live.

    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    Have you done in-house/alpha testing? I have. It's not the glorious gig filled with brilliant individuals who analyze every aspect of the game and never miss a thing. You seem to think that most of the alpha testers are professionals, when that's not the case. You get a mix of veteran testers and friends/family who frequently have little experience with the genre and no knowledge base to compare their current experiences again.
    When I say in-house - I'm not talking about devs inviting people to play the game in their office, I'm talking about full-time paid positions.
    Not all Alpha testers are professionals. But in-house testers ARE. Alpha testers are there to give verbal feedback of how it feels.

    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    And you seem to think that beta testing was always as it is today. It isn't. Today, beta testing is more for marketing than anything else. That's a terrible practice and sadly developers continue to reinforce it. If you look at beta testing in other software areas, or even look at beta testing as little as 5 years ago, you see a very different story.
    Yes it always was as it is today, except that today there are more tools for automated testing.
    The marketing thing is new, but it doesn't substract from beta test anything. It's just an additional perk that is used by publishers to hype the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    Yes, metrics from large scale beta tests are important. Yes, testing server architecture under heavy loads is important. But feedback during these periods does make a difference if the developer isn't so full of themselves that they believe their product is perfect (a few developers have made this mistake and ignored feedback, with disastrous results).
    It has nothing to do with thinking that product is perfect - otherwise why there's the metrics system?
    Devs just know that verbal feedback from random people is unreliable. Hence the metrics. Metrics is what beta tests are all about. In terms of feedback.
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    So if anyone gets into any beta tests for this, please please please provide any feedback you can. If you think that quest flow sucks, let them know. If you really like a certain mechanic, let them know. It helps make the game the best it can be, and I sure as hell want to see this game do well.
    They can see all these in the metrics. If people spend too much time questing in a certain zone - that means quest flow sucks.
    If people use a certain mechanic a lot - they like it. And otherwise.
    So my advice is this: don't waste dev's forum space with your feedback on how class A can be better and eventual flame-fest that begins right away... Just tell them if you like something or not. Like: "I like PVP in this game" or "I like character creator" or "I really don't dig exploration in this game"

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-18 at 11:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Ah, now we've moved on to very similar people stating that betas aren't for getting feedback on a game, that it's too late to make changes to a game, etc. This thread is a continual wonder as a challenge of how hard I can facepalm myself.

    Sure closed betas are just illusions for marketing, because that's why changes are made to address specific concerns and bugs that come up on top of the game launching many times vastly different than it appeared in beta right? Or is that just coincidence?
    Beta tests ARE for getting feedback, just not the VERBAL feedback.
    My Little Borg: Friendship is Irrelevant

  3. #1063
    If you don't want to provide feedback, that's your choice. You're choosing now to do everything in your power to improve a game before it comes out.

    Have you had any experience with in-house/alpha testing? I'm curious, because you speak as if you you have so I'm wondering why your experiences would be different from mine and that of friends I know.

  4. #1064
    Quote Originally Posted by SirRobin View Post
    Oh I agree that the Open Beta is pretty much just marketing nowadays. However, I'm talking about the Closed Beta's. I spent over a year in WAR's Closed Beta.
    I just thought that close beta is for the very few (in-house/"professionals") . By saying open beta I also meant when they sent mass invites (even if they still call it closed beta, is like open beta..). Anyway I don't want to argue about it, you probably know better.I never was in a close beta for a long time...
    The trick of selling a PvP-MMO is creating the illusion among gankers that they are respectable fighters while protecting them from respectable fights, as their less skilled half would be massacred and quit instead of “HTFU” as they claim.

  5. #1065
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    If you don't want to provide feedback, that's your choice. You're choosing now to do everything in your power to improve a game before it comes out.
    I will provide all the feedback via metrics and in-game polls.
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    Have you had any experience with in-house/alpha testing? I'm curious, because you speak as if you you have so I'm wondering why your experiences would be different from mine and that of friends I know.
    I work in the game industry for 10 years now. Not as a tester, as a game-designer, so yes I know a lot about of professional testing

    I also would like to note that verbal feedback post-launch is important, from people who play the game seriously and know a lot about it (also metrics are somewhat toned down on live servers), not like during beta test - when people see the game for the first time and have no clue how it works and how to play it properly.

    Also another issue. Technical bugs/optimization issues on PC due to different configurations - these bugs are real, and beta testers help find them. These should be reported.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 12:32 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by papajohn4 View Post
    I just thought that close beta is for the very few (in-house/"professionals") .
    The key word is beta. Everything beta is not strictly in-house. Closed or open. Alpha is in-house with friendsa and family members giving feedback on how the game feels, how UX is, etc.
    My Little Borg: Friendship is Irrelevant

  6. #1066
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    So explain to me how this just happened with SWTOR...since they are 'people who work in the industry and also play in the industry'. So while you say it won't happen, it just did happen with another company. Additionally, they have invited special people to little parties where they get their input on the game and so on. Seems a lot of trouble to go to if they don't plan on listening.
    If you can prove to me that SWTOR was going to have LFG features or other QoL features that were taken out at the customers behest and not because the game was planned in that intital stage then you may be onto something. Can you do that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    The QoL features like a cross server dungeon finder are being practically protested by people on their *official* boards. Once again I point at SWTOR, where the same thing happened. Hopefully these guys know to not listen to their 'fans', because they really just want to be special snowflakes in a sea of secial snowflakes in a world of a rapidly failing MMO that had better dare not take any pointers from WoW.

    No, they haven't given any official comment on payment models. But just like people are rallying against the good features, the same people are likewise rallying to demand it be a subscription only because "F2P and B2P games suck".
    The majority of people want it. Look no further than the recent gamut of games that came out lacking it, but eventually implemented it. Carbine has even said that the game will be released with it. The vocal minority over at WSC won't get what they want in this because it's too popular of a feature. Same with multiple levels of elder game gameplay; it's going to be there because it's too popular.
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    Repeat until win

  7. #1067
    Quote Originally Posted by Delanath View Post
    If you can prove to me that SWTOR was going to have LFG features or other QoL features that were taken out at the customers behest and not because the game was planned in that intital stage then you may be onto something. Can you do that?



    The majority of people want it. Look no further than the recent gamut of games that came out lacking it, but eventually implemented it. Carbine has even said that the game will be released with it. The vocal minority over at WSC won't get what they want in this because it's too popular of a feature. Same with multiple levels of elder game gameplay; it's going to be there because it's too popular.
    I saw something on reddit where one of the devs said the team is relooking at the lfg thing.

    As far as the multiple levels of raiding, thats not happening. Already been confirmed 20 and 40 man are entirely separate raids, each with 1 mode.

    Why is everyone so eager to transport every single aspect of wow into this game? Let it be its own thing.

    *~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*

  8. #1068
    Quote Originally Posted by papajohn4 View Post
    I am not remember a single post in vanilla/TBC about "when they will release new raid?" That way there was not dailies or dailies that added much later was only for money and not as a way to progress.
    There may not have been dailies per se, but the rep grinds kind of took the place of them. Like someone said just a few posts back, there was a lot to do during vanilla because everything took so god damn long to make headway with. I just leveled a monk from 1-90 in 2.5 days playtime, how long would it have taken me back in vanilla? 5 days if i was lucky and it wasn't my first toon.

    Quote Originally Posted by papajohn4 View Post
    The other way is t ocreate an easy content that everyone will see. But if people complete the content too fast why to keep subbing?The answer was the dailies...we will give them easy content that everyone can do but we will put it with dailies..
    I think blizz is on the right track currently by slowly releasing the LFR content. It's going to keep people around longer, and they'll eventually see the end of this tier. The people who only do LFR wont have an achieve for it, they won't get recognition outside of 502 gear sometimes, those will be saved for Normal and heroic mode guilds.

    Quote Originally Posted by papajohn4 View Post
    What you ask is utopia..no one will give easy content without make it keep for very long(dailies). Now you have to chose, you either want a challenge and you can try to beat that challenge or you want something easy but you have to login every day to push the button. either way, you will not "finish" the game before the new gear comes in...The only game that you can "finish" is GW2 and in my opinion is the reason why is B2P
    I don't understand what you're getting at here. Could you rephrase it?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-18 at 06:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    I saw something on reddit where one of the devs said the team is relooking at the lfg thing.

    As far as the multiple levels of raiding, thats not happening. Already been confirmed 20 and 40 man are entirely separate raids, each with 1 mode.

    Why is everyone so eager to transport every single aspect of wow into this game? Let it be its own thing.
    As in not putting it in? I must've missed that. The only thing that I saw regarding this in the AMAA was them repeating that LFG will be there for launch. Do you have a link?

    Also, adding in things that work from other games is the nature of the beast. That's how you gain legitimacy in many customers eyes. If you don't include certain things that are popular in the genre you run the risk of not gaining acceptance. The trick, as we all know, is to be unique while maintaining enough similarity that people want to try you out.
    Art of Hozen-fu:
    Grab, stab and ookin bite it.
    Repeat until win

  9. #1069
    They do want verbal feedback in MMO's, Metrics cannot tell them everything, otherwise why would they put in the option to provide verbal feedback in game?

    In any case Elim, we know you are the king of lies you cardassian you!

  10. #1070
    One of the devs posted the info about single raid modes on a WSC thread.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-18 at 07:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mmoplayer111 View Post
    They do want verbal feedback in MMO's, Metrics cannot tell them everything, otherwise why would they put in the option to provide verbal feedback in game?

    In any case Elim, we know you are the king of lies you cardassian you!
    That reminds me...does anyone else get the feeling the Cassians are sort based on the Cardassians? In ST, humans and Cardassians are similar in a lot of ways, both at similar levels in technological advancement, but the cardassians are big have that same arrogant attitude that was shown in the Dominion video.

    *~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*

  11. #1071
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    One of the devs posted the info about single raid modes on a WSC thread.
    Not what I'm asking about. You said, "I saw something on reddit where one of the devs said the team is relooking at the lfg thing." I took that to mean they were thinking about not doing it since everything they've said thus far has been that they're super excited about that feature. Did i misunderstand?


    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    That reminds me...does anyone else get the feeling the Cassians are sort based on the Cardassians? In ST, humans and Cardassians are similar in a lot of ways, both at similar levels in technological advancement, but the cardassians are big have that same arrogant attitude that was shown in the Dominion video.
    I made that comparison about ... 15-20 pages back
    Art of Hozen-fu:
    Grab, stab and ookin bite it.
    Repeat until win

  12. #1072
    Quote Originally Posted by Delanath View Post
    Not what I'm asking about. You said, "I saw something on reddit where one of the devs said the team is relooking at the lfg thing." I took that to mean they were thinking about not doing it since everything they've said thus far has been that they're super excited about that feature. Did i misunderstand?






    I made that comparison about ... 15-20 pages back
    Where are you drawing 'super excited' from? Their announcement was one line simply saying that the feature existed.

    If you read this you can see they are still working on the specifics of the lfd, mainly the cross realm part.

    http://www.reddit.com/r/WildStar/com...ing_on/c8v1inl

    *~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*

  13. #1073
    Warchief Razael's Avatar
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    Game is still so far away yet and this thread is lively as ever. Looks good , looks good.

  14. #1074
    Seems like the first full blown light hearted and comical mmo I've seen. Will be a refreshing change of pace... not that there's anything wrong with with dark and gloomy story lines.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 02:33 AM ----------

    Although I do hate how I have to choose between rag tag do gooders or moustache twirling villains.

  15. #1075
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    Where are you drawing 'super excited' from? Their announcement was one line simply saying that the feature existed.

    If you read this you can see they are still working on the specifics of the lfd, mainly the cross realm part.

    http://www.reddit.com/r/WildStar/com...ing_on/c8v1inl
    It was one line with an exclamation point! That means something Actually, I thought I remembered either seeing or listening to someone from carbine say they were excited about the LFD feature. After searching for it for a bit and being unable to find it I have to admit that maybe I misremembered it.

    Also, thanks pointing out that whole part of the conversation i missed. Was never a big fan of reddit because it's too easy to miss pertinent info like this. I like the idea of being able to implement a button to enable cross-server matching, it would allow people to choose. And lets face it, some servers may not be able to sustain a decent number of active people so it would be the only way they could get into a dungeon.
    Art of Hozen-fu:
    Grab, stab and ookin bite it.
    Repeat until win

  16. #1076
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirve View Post
    Game is still so far away yet and this thread is lively as ever. Looks good , looks good.
    isnt it supposed to come out this year?
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  17. #1077
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    isnt it supposed to come out this year?
    which could be considered as "far away" to some.
    Dictated but not read.

  18. #1078
    I am Murloc! SirRobin's Avatar
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    /beginnightmare
    News Flash: California

    Carbine Studios has announced today that it has hired John Riccitiello to run development for its MMO, WildStar Online.
    /endnightmare


  19. #1079
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    isnt it supposed to come out this year?
    8-9 months is a long time in the game world man.
    BAD WOLF

  20. #1080
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    8-9 months is a long time in the game world man.
    eh guess im just used to games being announced years in advance
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

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