[Megathread] Wildstar - Now F2P

[RoninaThorstone]

SWtor that was something we all saw coming didn't we? We all knew it was never going to take months to level to max or that leveling over and over with a different character was going to be something everyone would be happy about.

Sigh.

The DEVELOPERS didn't.

[beanman12345]

That's exactly what I was implying.

40 man raiding might be one of the cases where metrics are being misinterpreted.

I"m not saying 40 man is going to be successful or not. I'm not even saying their research studies say, 40 man is what everyone wants. In fact, it could be quite the opposite. Most people might want smaller raids. But then there are also dozens of MMO's that already offer these smaller raids, meaning all those people who want larger raids is untapped possible capita. I'll give an example. If I was a soft drink maker, most people want cola. I could come out with my own version of cola. Some people would switch from pepsi and coke, as I would hope, but without something really unique, I am not going to pull that many. Or I could make a soft drink with a really unique flavor, and maybe sure again I might not get enough people swaying from coke, but If i offered something for those people that don't like cola like, then I could be making quite a bit of money. I'm not saying 40 man is not w/o it's risks, or even that it's going to be profitible, but it's 100% just not a complete shot in the dark either. If no one wanted 40 mans, they wouldn't do 40 mans.

[RoninaThorstone]

So what's my point? well that you'll be doing a good chunk of small scale content before having access to the raid.

What a terrible decision.

Small and large scale content are practically different games.

We learned forever ago that you shouldn't force PvP players to raid in order to PvP. How much longer till people get that you should force raiders to dungeon in order to raid?

[Acidbaron]

What a terrible decision.

Small and large scale content are practically different games.

We learned forever ago that you shouldn't force PvP players to raid in order to PvP. How much longer till people get that you should force raiders to dungeon in order to raid?

It's the same thing isn't it? I can get the PvP for PvE argument but how do we expect people to gear and learn by not doing veteran mode 5 mans? that has been the gate for all mmo's.

[RoninaThorstone]

It's the same thing isn't it? I can get the PvP for PvE argument but how do we expect people to gear and learn by not doing veteran mode 5 mans? that has been the gate for all mmo's.

I just said it's NOT the same thing... and it isn't. Small scale content is very different from 40 man raiding.

And yes, many MMOs have made this mistake... which is something I also implied.

However, some MMOs have switched to "you raid in order to raid" such as FF14 which starts raiding at lv40. The problem is, they didn't go far enough in making 5 mans their own progression so they just sort of are there for dailies and grinding between raids rather than a form of end game.

Multimodal end game was something that Wildstar was touting not that long ago... only to fall short even compared to existing MMOs.

[Acidbaron]

I just said it's NOT the same thing... and it isn't. Small scale content is very different from 40 man raiding.

And yes, many MMOs have made this mistake... which is something I also implied.

However, some MMOs have switched to "you raid in order to raid" such as FF14 which starts raiding at lv40. The problem is, they didn't go far enough in making 5 mans their own progression so they just sort of are there for dailies and grinding between raids rather than a form of end game.

Multimodal end game was something that Wildstar was touting not that long ago... only to fall short even compared to existing MMOs.

I personally wouldn't want to have a person in my raid who can't do the 5 man content as it shows me they can't get through the gate. raids are a step up it has always been the gate, how do you expect people to prepare or gear otherwise, what do you propose just single player daily grinds?

[RoninaThorstone]

I personally wouldn't want to have a person in my raid who can't do the 5 man content as it shows me they can't get through the gate. raids are a step up it has always been the gate, how do you expect people to prepare or gear otherwise, what do you propose just single player daily grinds?

Wow... you really just aren't getting this.

Low level raids leading into high level raids.
Low level dungeons leading into high level dungeons.

Two different game modes, two separate progressions.

[Acidbaron]

Wow... you really just aren't getting this.

Low level raids leading into high level raids.
Low level dungeons leading into high level dungeons.

Two different game modes, two separate progressions.

High level dungeons leading into high level raids and i have no problem with this as it is how you learn the game and early group content. Not sure you why you want to drop players in a raid without any previous group experience in the game, the difficulty of the leveling dungeons are not a good benchmark or learning curve for raids in this game.

[CrossNgen]

Wow... you really just aren't getting this.

Low level raids leading into high level raids.
Low level dungeons leading into high level dungeons.

Two different game modes, two separate progressions.

But dungeons to raids was a part of the progression for the past ten years or so.

[RoninaThorstone]

But dungeons to raids was a part of the progression for the past ten years or so.

And it's wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

High level dungeons leading into high level raids and i have no problem with this as it is how you learn the game and early group content. Not sure you why you want to drop players in a raid without any previous group experience in the game, the difficulty of the leveling dungeons are not a good benchmark or learning curve for raids in this game.

Since there are no low level raids in Wildstar, of course the learning curve is off. Good grief. Low level raids would have around the same learning curve as low level dungeons.

Several MMOs, other than the one I cited earlier, "throw" players into raids before the level cap. Another one is vindictus, where the first raid is lv 24ish.

[Acidbaron]

I simply disagree that it's wrong, i often ran people in 5 man groups to see how they would react or do.

I find 5 mans an excellent gate and training grounds for raids as raids in this game do have a high individual responsibility, honestly you are the first person who i come across that claims that 5 mans are a bad gate for raids, people who can get veteran in the dungeons and adventures can do raids.

As a person being a raid leader for a 40 man guild, 5 mans are the first place i can see who i have with me and how they react to PvE content.

[RoninaThorstone]

I find 5 mans an excellent gate and training grounds for raids.

And already you've missed the point of what I am saying.

5 mans should not be a "training ground" for raids. They should be their own low, mid, and end game.
The "training ground" for raids should be be low and mid game raids.

That's multimodal progression.

[Acidbaron]

And already you've missed the point of what I am saying.

5 mans should not be a "training ground" for raids. They should be their own low, mid, and end game.
The "training ground" for raids should be be low and mid game raids.

That's multimodal progression.

It' isn't s a question of getting you it's just a matter of not agreeing with you, really

I don't agree with that as high levels open up more skill combinations and opens, what this game is based on. You find that everything should be progressed by their own format i find that PvE is in the same category and that yes 5 mans is lesser in terms of difficulty, yes i am one of those who believe more people add greater complexity due to more mechanics combinations being allowed and more individual responsibility in said encounter.

So yes i can see your stance i simply disagree with it on several levels and it's not something i'll quickly change on.

[Tango]

And already you've missed the point of what I am saying.

5 mans should not be a "training ground" for raids. They should be their own low, mid, and end game.
The "training ground" for raids should be be low and mid game raids.

That's multimodal progression.

Maybe he didn't miss it, just disagrees with you. I like 5 mans as a stepping stone to bigger parties/groups.

[Katchii]

Low level raids leading into high level raids.
Low level dungeons leading into high level dungeons.

Two different game modes, two separate progressions.

I don't see this happening realistically due to resources. Building two completely separate, completely viable and fleshed out progression paths would most likely result in both paths suffering unless the company had two completely separate teams for the different paths....which I just don't think is realistic or necessary. It's a great idea, I just don't realistically think this will ever happen due to resource constraints.

[RoninaThorstone]

Again, requiring one game mode to play another is something that we have seen rectified in the past with PvP and PvE getting their own, separate progressions. Then within PvP, we saw battle grounds and arenas get their own progressions. Granted, the RBG/Arena split is imperfect as you can't arena for honor points.

WoW has actually made progress on this, which I begrudgingly admit, with their 5 man challenge modes, 3 man senarios, brawlers guild, and raiding.
In WoW, 5 man progression goes:
low level 5 man > mid level 5 man > normal 5 man > heroic 5 man > challenge mode 5 man (arguably, Rifts "master modes" would fit better in here)
Unfortunately, raiding hasn't been incorporated into the leveling experience so it is still stuck as an early to late end game only mode.

The linear design of questing > dungeon > heroic dungeon > early raid > late raid is poor design as it's end game only caters to raiders. Dailies are not solo end game. Veteran dungeons and adventures which are mere stepping stones to end game are not end game.There are only two, perhaps 3 end games in Wildstar. Raiding, warplots, and if arenas give the same rewards as warplots then those too are end game.

There is no end game for hardcore, skilled solo players.
There is no end game for hardcore, skilled dungeon crawlers.

[Mormolyce]

I imagine if there are two types of content with the same rewards, 95% of players will choose the one with the lowest number of players required.

All else being equal, smaller sizes are easier due to less recruitment and organisation. Not to mention coordination.

If WoW's raids were scaled down to 5man everyone would probably be doing HMs.

WoW has actually made progress on this, which I begrudgingly admit, with their 5 man challenge modes, 3 man senarios, brawlers guild, and raiding.
In WoW, 5 man progression goes:
low level 5 man > mid level 5 man > normal 5 man > heroic 5 man > challenge mode 5 man (arguably, Rifts "master modes" would fit better in here)
Unfortunately, raiding hasn't been incorporated into the leveling experience so it is still stuck as an early to late end game only mode.

I'm hoping more people try CMs in WoD, they're really excellent and a real alternative pathway. Just suffer from low participation rate. Also you technically want to do at least LFR to get decent gear for them - this may change in WoD though as sockets and hit caps are gone or reduced.

[RoninaThorstone]

Also you technically want to do at least LFR to get decent gear for them

Any gear worn above item level 463 will be scaled down.
Gear will retain all hit and expertise, so players can remain capped. Stats that will be scaled down are secondary ones.

LFR gear is pretty overkill. Daily island gives like, 496 base or something.

- - - Updated - - -

I imagine if there are two types of content with the same rewards, 95% of players will choose the one with the lowest number of players required.

All else being equal, smaller sizes are easier due to less recruitment and organisation. Not to mention coordination.

If WoW's raids were scaled down to 5man everyone would probably be doing HMs.

If this is true, then a game which caters to 40 man raiding as it's only end game for PvE, as in what is at the end of it's progression, will probably face some difficulties. :P

[Tango]

Again, requiring one game mode to play another is something that we have seen rectified in the past with PvP and PvE getting their own, separate progressions. Then within PvP, we saw battle grounds and arenas get their own progressions. Granted, the RBG/Arena split is imperfect as you can't arena for honor points.

WoW has actually made progress on this, which I begrudgingly admit, with their 5 man challenge modes, 3 man senarios, brawlers guild, and raiding.
In WoW, 5 man progression goes:
low level 5 man > mid level 5 man > normal 5 man > heroic 5 man > challenge mode 5 man (arguably, Rifts "master modes" would fit better in here)
Unfortunately, raiding hasn't been incorporated into the leveling experience so it is still stuck as an early to late end game only mode.

The linear design of questing > dungeon > heroic dungeon > early raid > late raid is poor design as it's end game only caters to raiders. Dailies are not solo end game. Veteran dungeons and adventures which are mere stepping stones to end game are not end game.There are only two, perhaps 3 end games in Wildstar. Raiding, warplots, and if arenas give the same rewards as warplots then those too are end game.

There is no end game for hardcore, skilled solo players.
There is no end game for hardcore, skilled dungeon crawlers.

I agree with you, strongly, on your last two sentences. Carbine said they'll release more solo content but also said that the best gear will come from raids. So, we can agree here that solo and dungeon crawlers will have a "game", but won't get gear equivalent in power to pvp or raiding. So end game mening different but equal chacarter progression won't be be possible for those two groups. I also dislike that. But how can they balance the difficulty of a 5man to that of a 40man, so that both drop equivalent gear? They could go with the "+hit" variant on raiding gear, as discussed before, but dunno if that's the better alternative.

You can justify equal power gear in both 5mans dnad 40mans in lore with, example, ultra top secret missions, requiring super tight timers to down mobs/bosses so you get gear for doing something very heroic for your faction. That would be cool. Some people prefer the small scale combat, some the large. Somehow I think most would do the 5mans, as it's easier to manage, but it's just a guess. You could get novelty items on raids, so people would differentiate themselfes with those instead of better gear... well.. I said enough :P

[beanman12345]

I imagine if there are two types of content with the same rewards, 95% of players will choose the one with the lowest number of players required.

Youre probably right, less resistance et all. Though Carbine has always stated the best gear would come from Raiding. Not that it really matters, this conversation keeps getting brought up by the same few people every 25 pages or so that it's just reduntant topic at this point.