1. #18861
    Quote Originally Posted by mkultra55 View Post
    What's your issue with EVE? Is it because they refuse to cater to a casual demographic yet are successful? Their subs are still going up so it's odd that you make that comment.
    I think you can target a niche if your development costs are low. Eve cost something like $2.5 million to make and develop? DAoC also cost $2.5 million back in 2001. If you are targeting a niche you need to have low development costs and you will be fine. But games with $100+ million dollar development costs have to go after the masses.

  2. #18862
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkultra55 View Post
    I'm not trying to snipe at you as you say but you seem fixated on MMO's that need to compete with WOW
    See...it's polarizing words like 'fixated' that make me think you are taking pot shots. Not to mention I've never said anything that should remotely give you this impression. In fact, you can dig through this thread's history to see me defending this game and all game's against being compared, related, and ultimately labeled in regards to WoW. With that being said, you have an incredibly unrealistic view of MMO development, publishing, and operation and it's something we'll have to agree to disagree on. There's a reason why we don't have an indie MMO. We have games that can qualify if we break down our accepted meaning of that term, which would include things like Minecraft, Terarria, etc...but that's not what we're referring to and I guess it's irrelevant to continue discussing. It was an interesting discussion nonetheless.
    BAD WOLF

  3. #18863
    Quote Originally Posted by mkultra55 View Post
    What's your issue with EVE? Is it because they refuse to cater to a casual demographic yet are successful? Their subs are still going up so it's odd that you make that comment.
    I don't have an issue with Eve, I don't play Eve, never have and really don't care to. My criticism is not of the game but rather your mindset. You seem to think great MMO's are made in garages like garage bands and that if you make a business decision to open your player base up for the betterment of the company and the product you are selling your soul. How capable is Eve at any time to take the resouces generated by EVE and produce other AAA games? If EVE is so great wouldn't you want to see them create a dozen other games? You know why they can't? Niche Market.

  4. #18864
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharuko View Post
    I think you can target a niche if your development costs are low. Eve cost something like $2.5 million to make and develop? DAoC also cost $2.5 million back in 2001. If you are targeting a niche you need to have low development costs and you will be fine. But games with $100+ million dollar development costs have to go after the masses.
    That was my point. Someone could make a game with simplistic graphics but hardcore gameplay that had to be played with other people and it would still be considered an MMO and using my example above that design is very similar to the poor quality indy film projects we saw 10 years ago that were shot on DV.

  5. #18865
    Warchief Acidbaron's Avatar
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    'garage' games are often romanticized but it is true that their creativity and their being more daring than other products produced with over hanging big budgets with plenty of strings. Where you used to only have 5 people working at it later it exploded and turned into something "nasty" so i can agree with the sentiment that games that come from large companies are often disappointments.

    I do find that the best games come from a world of both, CD red projekt with their witcher games, the first game they took out didn't do all too well but they sticked with it and on return made enough money to produce a much better game that had a large funding but still had the creativity and appeal of the first.

    There are also indi games that completely don't hit their mark and don't do well at all so it's not an universal truth that their development background makes it either a good or bad game, there's simply an easier time now for people to produce games again what is a good thing for the game industry at the end of the day.

  6. #18866
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    I don't have an issue with Eve, I don't play Eve, never have and really don't care to. My criticism is not of the game but rather your mindset. You seem to think great MMO's are made in garages like garage bands and that if you make a business decision to open your player base up for the betterment of the company and the product you are selling your soul. How capable is Eve at any time to take the resouces generated by EVE and produce other AAA games? If EVE is so great wouldn't you want to see them create a dozen other games? You know why they can't? Niche Market.
    CCP is developing other games. Dust and Valkyrie come to mind so again I don't know what you're talking about.

    Please don't tell me what I'm thinking since you're really off base. Great games and great game companies usually start in the garage equivalent these days...someone's dorm room or crappy apartment. They start out making games THEY want to play and cater to people like themselves. How do you think Blizzard began and how do you think Blizzard was up until WOW?

    There is a bit of Soul Selling when you need to open up your game to every type of player whether you like it or not. That holds true whenever artists need to bend their art to appease the money people. I see it every day.

    I'd also argue that it's wrong to think that every time a developer opens up their game to a wider audience that the game gets better. I'd say the opposite is true just as often. WOW may seem better than it was in Vanilla to someone who wants to just log on for some quick gameplay but the old school 5 night a week Vanilla Raider may think the game is horrible now. It's all perspective.
    Last edited by mkultra55; 2014-03-26 at 08:00 PM.

  7. #18867
    Warchief Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Blizzard was rather large even before they started with WoW, they had two successful game types and 3 succesful IP's they had more than one building they owned long before WoW and even had different departments such as blizzard North, they could make WoW due to the funding WC, SC and Diablo made for them

    The games they made before those big IP's can be seen as garage games but the rest was hardly a garage game anymore and that basically happend to them since orcs vs humans as their race game and that other game didn't do too bad but wasn't a hit and we all know the rest.

  8. #18868
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelimbror View Post
    See...it's polarizing words like 'fixated' that make me think you are taking pot shots. Not to mention I've never said anything that should remotely give you this impression. In fact, you can dig through this thread's history to see me defending this game and all game's against being compared, related, and ultimately labeled in regards to WoW. With that being said, you have an incredibly unrealistic view of MMO development, publishing, and operation and it's something we'll have to agree to disagree on. There's a reason why we don't have an indie MMO. We have games that can qualify if we break down our accepted meaning of that term, which would include things like Minecraft, Terarria, etc...but that's not what we're referring to and I guess it's irrelevant to continue discussing. It was an interesting discussion nonetheless.

    Bad choice of words on my part then so I apologize. I just think we're going to see changes in the creation and distribution of multiplayer games that echo what we've seen in other media. MMO's are arguably the most complex games and would logically be the very last type of entertainment to be able to work under a new paradigm.

    Back Wildstar.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Blizzard was rather large even before they started with WoW, they had two successful game types and 3 succesful IP's they had more than one building they owned long before WoW and even had different departments such as blizzard North, they could make WoW due to the funding WC, SC and Diablo made for them

    The games they made before those big IP's can be seen as garage games but the rest was hardly a garage game anymore and that basically happend to them since orcs vs humans as their race game and that other game didn't do too bad but wasn't a hit and we all know the rest.
    Of course they were big but they were still an independent studio run by gamers before Activision acquired them. Size doesn't negate independent thinking.

    Now we have someone running the parent company who publicly said
    "The goal that I had in bringing a lot of the packaged goods folks into Activision about 10 years ago was to take all the fun out of making video games."
    That's the difference.

  9. #18869
    where could I get a beta key?

  10. #18870
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkultra55 View Post
    MMO's are arguably the most complex games and would logically be the very last type of entertainment to be able to work under a new paradigm.

    Back Wildstar.
    No wait, but you said something interesting and I agree. I touched on it in that post, but I think what you are referencing will likely not be present in the traditional format we see as an MMO. In fact, the game most likely to achieve MMO like features on a small scale budget sounds like Terraria 2. Reading the creator talk about having infinite worlds to explore in a more organic way sounds like taking the principles of Eve with more compelling (to most people) gameplay and having a low entry fee and wide distribution via Steam. I don't think we will see something like Wildstar minus the wide ranging features targeted at a specific group of people.

    Consider the discussion Bard touches on a lot where he questions why MMOs even have leveling in the first place. I mean there's really no point. Sure some people (myself included) like it, but objectively what does it accomplish that can't be accomplished by transitioning that style of content into meaningful end game from the get go? Why even have levels? An MMO could easily forsake that limited development ideal and come out with an MMO that is all end game from day 1 you log in.

    Unfortunately the idea of MMO evolution really doesn't apply to Wildstar even though it sounded like it would. It is firmly in the AAA safe zone in regards to features and ideology save the exclusionary and limited end game development it appears to have....which may change.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mkultra55 View Post
    Now we have someone running the parent company who publicly said
    I have no love for Kotick, but he clarified the very next day exactly what those words mean and it certainly is better in an understandable and proper context. He's not a moron. http://kotaku.com/5474949/bobby-koti...fun-statements
    BAD WOLF

  11. #18871
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelimbror View Post
    ..............

    Unfortunately the idea of MMO evolution really doesn't apply to Wildstar even though it sounded like it would. It is firmly in the AAA safe zone in regards to features and ideology save the exclusionary and limited end game development it appears to have....which may change.
    I agree that the idea of two separate games in one is just a poor way to make a modern game. WOW's success has been bad for the genre in so many ways. It's skewed financial expectations and it crippled design evolution. It's sad really.

    I enjoy leveling as well but it really is a waste of dev time when you look at the big picture. I feel the same thing about gearing as a means of Power Progression but that's for a separate discussion.

    In the end I'm OK with Wildstar though. It's going to be a fun ride for a few months at least.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelimbror View Post
    .

    - - - Updated - - -

    I have no love for Kotick, but he clarified the very next day exactly what those words mean and it certainly is better in an understandable and proper context. He's not a moron. http://kotaku.com/5474949/bobby-koti...fun-statements
    I took that as someone back tracking and that his initial quote was closer to how he really feels TBH. Mainly because I've dealt with people like him in my own business.
    Last edited by mkultra55; 2014-03-26 at 08:42 PM.

  12. #18872
    Elemental Lord Chickat's Avatar
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    New ui is much better. Not perfect, but beta is beta. I mostly want a better path-quest ui. Also be cool to have path resources on the map, though im not sure if that already exists or not.
    Send me a PM and suggest a forum avatar based on my title, Immortal.

  13. #18873
    This will seriously be the first MMO (or any game) that I have pre-ordered.

  14. #18874
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    I'm guessing many players in MMOs would actually prefer a single player game. However, they play a MMO because it gets updated regularly. A lot of RPGs are lucky to have 300 hours of game play in them. Then, you wait another 5 years for the sequel where all your progress and achievements in the original are forgotten. Plus, it's nice to go into town and chat with people after all the day's adventuring is done or sell stuff.
    Yes .. and the option to group up to do things like harder dungeons/LFR is nice to have, or the ability to ask for help to get past some tough part. WoW had to get rid of its old group quests - usually reserved for those end-of-chain quests that had you kill a really tough guy that needed five people to take him down, that rewarded you some blue item that was actually crappy by the time I started - because those old zones are simply empty now. I tried questing in Ghostlands to level up yet another Belf, found that the old group quests hadn't been touched, and also saw that I was the only player in the whole zone. So I had to go elsewhere. This was on Thrall!

    Options are nice. It's nice to be able to choose between solo and group content, and of course, the updates.

    The problem with group content is the schoolyard exclusion phenomenon, which I see in even WoW Flex raids, which are supposed to be pretty casual. The in-game finder only demands an ilvl of 510 - fairly reasonable, since LFR drops 528s. But I've seen so many Trade Chat LFM's that want people to have heroic level gear (550+), it's not worth bothering trying to talk to people because you think they'll just dismiss you as some "LFR scrub", and not even let you try. Fortunately, I'm happy chasing after my 528 sets. I have enough 90s - some of whom are still stuck in ToT - to keep me busy with that.

    But sometimes, yeah, I don't want to wait for queues, or have to deal with groups. Sometimes I like to derp around, and know that if I have to go to the bathroom, I can just hop on a flying mount, spacebar to safety, and go.

    It should be interesting to play two different MMOs now, and see how it works out wrt to social/solo balance, having new stuff to do, etc.
    Last edited by FunkyRaccoon; 2014-03-27 at 01:27 AM.

  15. #18875
    Missed dodge/sprint during raid today in WoW. Combat also felt slow after beta weekend >.< Can't wait for the next beta!

  16. #18876
    dotn forget doubble jump :P

    Wildstar Black Ops - loved by strangers

  17. #18877
    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    Missed dodge/sprint during raid today in WoW. Combat also felt slow after beta weekend >.< Can't wait for the next beta!
    Just wanting to know if my guess is correct, what class do you raid with?

    A question regarding dodge, has it been improved? Last time I used it, you would dodge , but still get hit by abilities, it was basically a move to this area faster than running, but on the way, you still get hit.

    GW2 did dodge far better, as when you dodged, you actually dodged stuff, it wasn't just a move here quicker button.

    If this is how dodge is intended in the game, they should rename it, to leap or something.
    Last edited by Tekkommo; 2014-03-27 at 03:25 PM.

  18. #18878
    Quote Originally Posted by Tekkommo View Post
    Just wanting to know if my guess is correct, what class do you raid with?

    A question regarding dodge, has it been improved? Last time I used it, you would dodge , but still get hit by abilities, it was basically a move to this area faster than running, but on the way, you still get hit.

    GW2 did dodge far better, as when you dodged, you actually dodged stuff, it wasn't just a move here quicker button.

    If this is how dodge is intended in the game, they should rename it.
    Dodge w/o temporary damage immunity is bound to cause issues cause of latency.
    Can you believe it? My ISP is amazing, look

    Oh yea i forgot there was a 0. in front of the 8 ... internet service in America sucks.

  19. #18879
    Scarab Lord Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tekkommo View Post
    A question regarding dodge, has it been improved? Last time I used it, you would dodge , but still get hit by abilities, it was basically a move to this area faster than running, but on the way, you still get hit.

    GW2 did dodge far better, as when you dodged, you actually dodged stuff, it wasn't just a move here quicker button.

    If this is how dodge is intended in the game, they should rename it, to leap or something.
    You can't be serious?

    That "damage immunity while dodging" is the most idiotic form of dodging ever. Dodging is moving fast from one point to another, it should not make you a superman who can take a nuclear blast in the face and not getting damaged.

    Damage immunity for 1 sec every 10 secs or so would seriously fuck up raiding, too. Think about if you had this in WoW, how pointless would all raid mechanics become?
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken

    http://www.hitbox.tv/puupi - mythic restoration/enhancement shaman raiding

  20. #18880
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Damage immunity for 1 sec every 10 secs or so would seriously fuck up raiding, too. Think about if you had this in WoW, how pointless would all raid mechanics become?
    Raid encounters are designed on what is available, not ignoring what is added. This is a silly analogy. It's up to the design team to make the encounter challenging. If there was immunity like you mentioned, I expect every encounter to have higher damage spikes (more penalty for messing up) or more constant damage (so that it circumvents invulnerability). I would think that would be obvious to someone who is fit to judge design as 'idiotic' as you must have a clear understanding of the full meanings of that design.
    BAD WOLF

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