1. #6781
    Quote Originally Posted by paralleluniverse View Post
    And how do you know that?

    It's not even the main complaint for WoW. In fact, it's not even a complaint that I've seen ever raised. The main complaint (rightly or wrongly, and I think wrongly) is that WoW is catering to casuals.
    lol and lead system designer greg street has nothing to do about that?

    im not even saying that this is the only reason why WoW is losing subs, its a whole list of things.. but i just find it funny how people list one problem they have with the game and use that as the sole reason for why its "failing"
    Last edited by Insanoflex; 2013-07-29 at 12:16 PM.
    Dictated but not read.

  2. #6782
    Quote Originally Posted by Airlick View Post
    It's really not hard at all, just give the subbers rep/xp boosts, increased mount speed, some titles, maybe increased bag space. Nothing game-breaking, but definitely worth it if you're enjoying the game and want to simply support the company.

    I pretty much listed the rewards from Rift sub rewards, but TERA also had pretty much the same rewards. It works, it made me want to pay, and that's all I need to know.
    Ridiculous to be giving rep and XP boosts. Why even have levels if you're going to let people buy their way out of some part of leveling?

  3. #6783
    Dreadlord Vexies's Avatar
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    yes wow is losing players because its a subscription based mmo..

    nothing to do greg street or developers like him.. yes its the payment model.
    Well its most certainly a combination of the two. While I think it would be a gross over simplification to lay the blame on anyone developer, the direction the development has taken combined with the fact that there are simply so many more quality games with a much more forgiving payment model have certainly been a huge contributor to their decline in subscribers and recent shifts toward cash shops themselves. What makes them worse ( in my opinion ) and people who stomach it a bit gullible is that they allow them to charge a sub fee for content ON TOP of charging them for cash shop items.. which is just crazy. I just don't see how more people dont see that and get irate.

  4. #6784
    Quote Originally Posted by Vexies View Post
    Well its most certainly a combination of the two. While I think it would be a gross over simplification to lay the blame on anyone developer, the direction the development has taken combined with the fact that there are simply so many more quality games with a much more forgiving payment model have certainly been a huge contributor to their decline in subscribers and recent shifts toward cash shops themselves. What makes them worse ( in my opinion ) and people who stomach it a bit gullible is that they allow them to charge a sub fee for content ON TOP of charging them for cash shop items.. which is just crazy. I just don't see how more people dont see that and get irate.
    More quality games? Ummm, no. There hasn't been any good MMOs since WoW. Wildstar seems the most promising (despite the fact that, as I've said, it's copying many mistakes from WoW classic). But on your second point about WoW's double-dipping payment model, I completely agree and I've been arguing that for many years now, ever since that cash shop started. If Wildstar goes with both subscription and microtransactions, like WoW, there is zero chance I will buy it.

  5. #6785
    Dreadlord Vexies's Avatar
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    More quality games? Ummm, no. There hasn't been any good MMOs since WoW.
    and this is completely subjective and not based in fact at all..

    Money talks. There are a LOT of successful games out there right now with no sub fee what so ever. The fact that some people labor under the illusion that to be successful a game must garner 7 million subs ( next quarter it will require 6.3 million to be successful, if you get what I did there ) is simply skewed perception but not at all grounded in fact.

    It is because of the amount of entertainment options out there right now that are pulling that previous 13 million customers to other games thus we see them divided amoungst the marker rather than pooled in one place as they had been in previous years.

  6. #6786
    Quote Originally Posted by paralleluniverse View Post
    Ridiculous to be giving rep and XP boosts. Why even have levels if you're going to let people buy their way out of some part of leveling?
    Because they want to pay to skip it? Because they may not have time to do all of the 'Kill 12 wolves' filler quests and want to focus on the story?

    Why even have levels if people are going to reach the cap eventually? Why even have rep if people are going to max it eventually? I really don't get your point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxos View Post
    When you play the game of MMOs, you win or you go f2p.

  7. #6787
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airlick View Post
    It's really not hard at all, just give the subbers rep/xp boosts, increased mount speed, some titles, maybe increased bag space.
    It must be harder than you think, because what you listed is not good enough for my $15 or most people's $15.
    Quote Originally Posted by Airlick View Post
    I pretty much listed the rewards from Rift sub rewards
    Rift doesn't have a subscription option anymore. It's very clear they want to rebrand the entire notion of subscription, which is why they call it patron status and let it work on any number of days instead of flat $$/month. That's pretty much the best evidence that subscription models are going the way of the dodo. A company that hinged on raising a subscription as the pinnacle of service, which almost tried to brainwash people into believing subscriptions were the only valid way to have an MMO (it helped that they walked the walk with their content too), threw the subscription out the window as an afterthought as soon as they transitioned to F2P.

    People already have a hard enough time justifying subscriptions when it pays for access to a whole game...what do you think is going to happen when you tell them a subscription (which costs the same as you used to pay) now only grants you these 5 things? Sure the crazed/loyal/well off people will still have them, but on the whole most people will not. Normally the most surefire way of enticing subscribers in a B2P/F2P landscape is to provide cash shop currency as it has a real world monetary value....effectively reducing the cost of the subscription.
    BAD WOLF

  8. #6788
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    It must be harder than you think, because what you listed is not good enough for my $15 or most people's $15.

    Rift doesn't have a subscription option anymore. It's very clear they want to rebrand the entire notion of subscription, which is why they call it patron status and let it work on any number of days instead of flat $$/month.
    I really don't care what they want to call it, Patron is still an optional sub. It gives me some convenience, and that's worth the money for me. I don't have time to do dailies and grind rep for 2 months straight without the boosts, they provide me with daily boosts for a low price. I'm happy, they are happy.


    What else do you want with the optional sub, honestly?
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxos View Post
    When you play the game of MMOs, you win or you go f2p.

  9. #6789
    paying for a sub now with an alternative free to play option.. things i would want as perks for sub would be along the lines of.. max character slots, double rested exp cap, more area's to gain the log off buff, send + recieve mail anywhere, portable AH, more auction house slots, more bank slots.. would also expect some eshop money per month.
    Dictated but not read.

  10. #6790
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airlick View Post
    I really don't care what they want to call it, Patron is still an optional sub
    It's understandable that you don't get the implications of what Trion are doing, as it is rather original for the mainstream market. This has been discussed at length in the Rift forums and it is certainly not a subscription in the traditional sense, which is really the whole point of what they are doing. You are also disregarding why I mentioned this in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Airlick View Post
    I'm happy, they are happy.
    I'm happy today too. I don't see the relevance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Airlick View Post
    What else do you want with the optional sub, honestly?
    Are we talking about an actual subscription service, or Rift's patron status? It is acceptable as a patron status, since you can buy it in several time increments, including the 'Weekend Warrior' boosts. For an actual subscription, where you pay your $15 and have no choice otherwise? Not good enough.

    It also depends on what any game's Free-to-Play actually means. For Rift and TERA it works, because no content is restricted. These are relatively new models and they are great. Now, take a game where you still have to purchase a box (whether for B2P or just F2P and you buy the expansions) and it is 100% not acceptable without more value.

    To the point, I already answered your question. Most companies tend to use a stipend in their cash shop to make the subscription option(not sure why we need to highlight this, as any subscription even in sub only games, including simply playing games in the first place is optional) worthwhile, as it adds real money value and effectively discounts the subscription.
    BAD WOLF

  11. #6791
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Not talking about you, talking about people who are the ones uploading/posting actual NDA breaks. The links to the Wildstar reddit and such are totally fine here because linking to another resource isn't breaking anything!
    Both my posts got removed when I just mentioned the reddit wildstaronline website. As I said, I can understand that you dont want any nda breaking material around here, but the mods needs to agree. Cause all I did was linking to reddit.com/r/wildstaronline.

    But I'm going away for 14 days tomorrow, sunny beach woop woop. So hopefully it will be some interesting news waiting for me when I get back!

    Have fun everyone, looking forward to playing this game hardcore when it launches.

    - Alkzn

  12. #6792
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Are we talking about an actual subscription service, or Rift's patron status? It is acceptable as a patron status, since you can buy it in several time increments, including the 'Weekend Warrior' boosts. For an actual subscription, where you pay your $15 and have no choice otherwise? Not good enough.
    I did obviously mean something like Rift's patron in all of my previous posts.

    Also, I never said the sub-only payment model is good. It's not and it hurts both developers and the players. What I said is that optional subs, providing minor convenience tools, are good for both the players and the company.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxos View Post
    When you play the game of MMOs, you win or you go f2p.

  13. #6793
    Quote Originally Posted by Airlick View Post
    It's not and it hurts both developers and the players.
    No, guaranteed money never hurts the developers. That is silly.

    The developers could be less inclined to come out with risky, but amazing content, yes. Or even less inclined to put out content quickly.

    But guaranteed money never hurts anyone.

    and as a developer, I would like that security.

    However, as a player, I am not so inclined to spend 15 dollars a month on a video game.
    Last edited by Sakorath67; 2013-07-29 at 07:01 PM.

  14. #6794
    Quote Originally Posted by Sakorath67 View Post
    No, guaranteed money never hurts the developers. That is silly.

    The developers could be less inclined to come out with risky, but amazing content, yes. Or even less inclined to put out content quickly.

    But guaranteed money never hurts anyone.

    and as a developer, I would like that security.

    However, as a player, I am not so inclined to spend 15 dollars a month on a video game.
    Yeah, but that's what optional sub is for - guaranteed money. If the game is good, people will pay, regardless if they have to or not. It's like tipping a good waiter, lol. But many people don't want to pay monthly, and it's not good for developers to cut them off the game completely, because these more-or-less casual players could pay a lot for visuals or convenience items like XP boosts when they have time to play, and they could even pay more than they would with just sub. Yeah, it's kind of a gamble, but it usually turns out as a win for the developers.

    You said that yourself, you don't want to pay 15 dollars a month. But I bet you wouldn't mind buying some things from in-game store occasionally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxos View Post
    When you play the game of MMOs, you win or you go f2p.

  15. #6795
    Quote Originally Posted by Airlick View Post
    Yeah, but that's what optional sub is for - guaranteed money. If the game is good, people will pay, regardless if they have to or not. It's like tipping a good waiter, lol. But many people don't want to pay monthly, and it's not good for developers to cut them off the game completely, because these more-or-less casual players could pay a lot for visuals or convenience items like XP boosts when they have time to play, and they could even pay more than they would with just sub. Yeah, it's kind of a gamble, but it usually turns out as a win for the developers.

    You said that yourself, you don't want to pay 15 dollars a month. But I bet you wouldn't mind buying some things from in-game store occasionally.
    Indeed, but the notion that guaranteed money is bad for the developers is silly.

    They get paid, they are happy.

    Are us players happy? Probably not as much.

  16. #6796
    Bloodsail Admiral Ryuji's Avatar
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    If I may, gonna add my two cents to the F2P with optional sub thing. I've recently gone back to SWTOR to play through some more of the class stories(I couldn't care less about the PvP in TOR, but am kinda-sorta interested in the raiding...but not very interested).

    First off, I understand F2P games are meant to...encourage you to buy stuff here and there, but the way that TOR does it (Say you just got the game and dropped $5 to get preferred status and have not bought anything in the cartel market) is just...off.

    http://www.swtor.com/free/features

    Just skimming through that list shows less of developers encouraging you to sub and more of them untying the noose around your neck if you sub. It's just...awful. To counter-point though, I somewhat understand if, say, someone is ONLY interested in the class stories and that's it. But even then, the comparison between sub and F2P is just...a bit much, imho.

    Also, I'm not against F2P games at all. I just don't like when a F2P game pretty much has you at gunpoint if you don't sub.

    Maybe I'm overreacting to TOR's F2P vs. Sub model, Idunno. I know it's not as bad as it was at the F2P release with all of the 2 action bars F2P had(other limitations notwithstanding). I mean, really...2 action bars? :|
    Last edited by Ryuji; 2013-07-30 at 04:32 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sakpoth View Post
    I find it unreasonable to ask for other than obvious reasons, when the reason obviously is the obvious reason.
    Song that's currently stuck in my head: Carbon Based Lifeforms - 20 Minutes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbPT1t-4gUs

  17. #6797
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuji View Post
    Maybe I'm overreacting to TOR's F2P vs. Sub model, Idunno. I know it's not as bad as it was at the F2P release with all of the 2 action bars F2P had(other limitations notwithstanding). I mean, really...2 action bars? :|
    I'd say you are, because SWTOR is an anomaly when it comes to modern Western F2P MMO business models in how fucking terrible their model is for free players and how cash-shop centric their development of the game has been. The only games that come close to being as restrictive are EQ1/2, and SoE has loosened up restrictions on them quite a bit over the years.

    If you want to see some better models, check out Rift, Tera, DCUO, STO or even LOTRO.

  18. #6798
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I'd say you are, because SWTOR is an anomaly when it comes to modern Western F2P MMO business models in how fucking terrible their model is for free players and how cash-shop centric their development of the game has been. The only games that come close to being as restrictive are EQ1/2, and SoE has loosened up restrictions on them quite a bit over the years.

    If you want to see some better models, check out Rift, Tera, DCUO, STO or even LOTRO.
    It's more of a trial then an actual F2P model.

  19. #6799
    Bloodsail Admiral Ryuji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I'd say you are, because SWTOR is an anomaly when it comes to modern Western F2P MMO business models in how fucking terrible their model is for free players and how cash-shop centric their development of the game has been. The only games that come close to being as restrictive are EQ1/2, and SoE has loosened up restrictions on them quite a bit over the years.

    If you want to see some better models, check out Rift, Tera, DCUO, STO or even LOTRO.
    Hmm, true. Just always bugged me how limited you felt as a F2P'er in TOR. I ended up subbing for a month to not have to deal with it which pretty much is exactly what the developers hope for I think.

    and out of those MMOs you listed, I've only played Tera which I highly enjoyed. Only bought some cosmetic stuff here and there and I felt it was worth the purchase. ...Now that I think about it I should get back into that. Was a lot of fun on the Berserker I was playing.

    But in regards to WildStar, I *REALLY* hope they don't try TOR's model. Or trial as zito put it. :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Sakpoth View Post
    I find it unreasonable to ask for other than obvious reasons, when the reason obviously is the obvious reason.
    Song that's currently stuck in my head: Carbon Based Lifeforms - 20 Minutes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbPT1t-4gUs

  20. #6800
    Dreadlord Vexies's Avatar
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    But in regards to WildStar, I *REALLY* hope they don't try TOR's model. Or trial as zito put it. :P
    As a previous long time fan of the pre-F2P SWTOR .. Having experienced the transition first hand, the constant absolutely amazingly hamfisted handling of that game and its PR and the now in place "free to make you hate the game" system Id like to think no developer could be as inept or as little in touch with there fan base as SWTOR's management has been. It pretty much has sadly become the shining example of how NOT to make a F2P system and the one most trotted out to justify those who hate F2P's concerns. Its sad really.

    From what ive seen of Wildstar I dont think we will see anything close to that. I am very curious as to what this "hybrid" system will be but I have a lot of confidence it will be nothing like SWTOR's

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