1. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Yes, developers give you lots of dailies and call it 'content'.

    (with the exception of rift but they appear to be slowing down)
    They use rift as one of the bench marks.. they want monthly content which adds to the story (aimed at solo play) which is not dailies. Also raid changes can happen weekly.
    Dictated but not read.

  2. #682
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Or maybe it's because the market is fragmenting and some of us are beginning to play more than one MMO and thus a subscription feels like a trap.
    Why should I pay 15/mo? I would rather pay for content I actually play / want.

    And it places the responsibility squarely on the developers shoulder to make content I am willing to pay for, making them more responsive to their player base.



    ---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 02:12 PM ----------



    Yes, developers give you lots of dailies and call it 'content'.

    (with the exception of rift but they appear to be slowing down)
    Whats the difference then?If the MMO has content that you are interested to play -quality MMO- then why not to pay the monthly sub which btw is very cheap considering the hours of entertainment you get. From the other hand if the game is not interesting for you to play, would you play it just because it is free? Either the game is interesting to play/pay or its not. Also I don't see any f2p game that separate their content and sell it..they don't say if you like dungeons pay 5 euro for dungeons and if you don't like dailies you will save 5 euro for not buying them. Is not how they work.

    I agree on dailies part...the 2013 MMO joke is that developers consider dailies as content and the more dailies you need to do until you reach the goal the more content they think that you get..And thats why the MMOs fail now, because they are dailycraft and hope people will pay them 15 per month to do their dailies..and then they think that is the business model that screw them
    The trick of selling a PvP-MMO is creating the illusion among gankers that they are respectable fighters while protecting them from respectable fights, as their less skilled half would be massacred and quit instead of “HTFU” as they claim.

  3. #683
    Quote Originally Posted by Insanoflex View Post
    They use rift as one of the bench marks.. they want monthly content which adds to the story (aimed at solo play) which is not dailies. Also raid changes can happen weekly.
    Yep. I'm sure that will happen.

    I am going to pull a KV here and say

    We shall see...

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 02:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by papajohn4 View Post
    Whats the difference then?If the MMO has content that you are interested to play -quality MMO- then why not to pay the monthly sub which btw is very cheap considering the hours of entertainment you get. From the other hand if the game is not interesting for you to play, would you play it just because it is free? Either the game is interesting to play/pay or its not. Also I don't see any f2p game that separate their content and sell it..they don't say if you like dungeons pay 5 euro for dungeons and if you don't like dailies you will save 5 euro for not buying them. Is not how they work.
    Lotro swtor dcuo ect. I mean, do you really want me to go through and find which F2P mmos sell quest packs / raid packs / dungeon packs / story packs ect?

    And that's exactly how they work.
    IE
    You can choose to focus on pvp in swtor for like 50% the cost in rl money / free by buying them off the GTN.
    Last edited by Bardarian; 2013-03-11 at 02:27 PM.
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  4. #684
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Lotro swtor dcuo ect. I mean, do you really want me to go through and find which F2P mmos sell quest packs / raid packs / dungeon packs / story packs ect?

    And that's exactly how they work.
    IE
    You can choose to focus on pvp in swtor for like 50% the cost in rl money / free by buying them off the GTN.
    wait..quest pack is not a content choice, are essential parts for leveling. Also in swtor you can focus on pvp with 50% of your money but this only for pvp assuming you will not do anything else in the game..cause with 350k credit cap you are only to play battlegrounds..oh wait, you also need to augment your armor which will need lots of money. Not to mention that if by any chance your focus is not the pvp and is somehow pve you cannot do that...even if you want to hide the ugly head you just got you need to pay money...

    anyway, as I said, any game that starts out or transitions to F2P is drastically different from a game built for a subscription. And thats my opinion and cannot change it
    The trick of selling a PvP-MMO is creating the illusion among gankers that they are respectable fighters while protecting them from respectable fights, as their less skilled half would be massacred and quit instead of “HTFU” as they claim.

  5. #685
    Quote Originally Posted by papajohn4 View Post
    wait..quest pack is not a content choice, are essential parts for leveling. Also in swtor you can focus on pvp with 50% of your money but this only for pvp assuming you will not do anything else in the game..cause with 350k credit cap you are only to play battlegrounds..oh wait, you also need to augment your armor which will need lots of money. Not to mention that if by any chance your focus is not the pvp and is somehow pve you cannot do that...even if you want to hide the ugly head you just got you need to pay money...

    anyway, as I said, any game that starts out or transitions to F2P is drastically different from a game built for a subscription. And thats my opinion and cannot change it
    Or get it for 5 quests (or 5 warzones, those give credits too) worth of credits off the GTN :P

    I don't aim to change your opinion. Simply question it. (this is a discussion board after all)
    Last edited by Bardarian; 2013-03-11 at 02:46 PM.
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  6. #686
    Speaking of business models and success/fail I like to share a very good article with you

    How we measure success in the MMO genre varies from person to person. Or at least, what we call a success varies. Personal success, industry success, believing in success based on PR or ‘solid’ data; all of this gets mixed into a giant blender and tossed out on blogs and forums. My goal today is to define success both to the player and to the company, hopefully setting the groundwork for a post tomorrow.

    There are two critical aspects of success when talking about an MMO: Did you like it, and did the company profit off the title.
    The first point, did you like it, is of course extremely subjective. I like Darkfall, most do not. Is Darkfall a success by this standard? For me it is, for you it might not be.

    The second aspect of success is company profitability, but let’s look at this from a different angle then just the pure amount of profit (few MMO companies are public or offer this number straight up): is your MMO being updated, and is it being updated in a way you enjoy.

    The first factor is pretty simple. When was the last time your MMO got a good update? If the game is doing well, it still has talented devs working on it, and those devs are improving the game. This is a core principle of the genre, and should be a major strength if done right.

    The second is subjective, but just as important. Ultima Online got updated, but the update was Trammel, which ruined the game for many. SWG got the NGE. WoW got WotLK. I’m sure most have their own examples. Whether the update was done from need (sub game failing and going F2P), from greed (Trammel to chase EQ1 players), or from misguided metrics (WotLK being focused-grouped out to cater to casuals at the expense of the core), the end result is an update that instead of making the game better for you, made it worse.

    So let’s recap: A successful MMO is one you enjoy playing, one that has an active dev team, and that active dev team is producing content that is enjoyed by the current player base (you). This in turn creates a game you not only enjoy playing, but can continue to enjoy playing long-term.
    I can provide the source if you like, I just don't like to seem like a blog advertise

    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Or get it for 5 quests (or 5 warzones, those give credits too) worth of credits off the GTN :P

    I don't aim to change your opinion. Simply question it. (this is a discussion board after all)
    I am sure there are ways around, but the truth is that the game have drastically changed since f2p. In other words, are you saying that someone could pay 7-8 euro per month just to do warzones, dealing with all the other restrictions and also see the 90% of the updates being on the cartel shop rather than actual content updates, instead of pay 14-15 per month for the full game and have the developers working on actual content? swtor turned to f2p because they failed and now their creativity is how to milk money through the shop..the game have ended the day they turned to that route.
    Last edited by papajohn4; 2013-03-11 at 02:54 PM.
    The trick of selling a PvP-MMO is creating the illusion among gankers that they are respectable fighters while protecting them from respectable fights, as their less skilled half would be massacred and quit instead of “HTFU” as they claim.

  7. #687
    Quote Originally Posted by papajohn4 View Post
    and also see the 90% of the updates being on the cartel shop rather than actual content updates, instead of pay 14-15 per month for the full game and have the developers working on actual content? swtor turned to f2p because they failed and now their creativity is how to milk money through the shop..the game have ended the day they turned to that route.
    You are seeing pre f2p swtor through extreme nostalgia. Keep in mind that we had no content updates for the entire summer and half the fall (the only thing we got during that time was the easter egg hunt that lasted about 1-2 hours). Around when swtor went f2p we actually saw an increase in content, and have seen more content since.

    The fact is, when swtor was a subscription game we got less.
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  8. #688
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    The fact is, when swtor was a subscription game we got less.
    maybe if it didnt have soooo much wrong with it at launch which should have been sorted pre-launch.. we would have got content updates and probably kept the players and subscription.
    Dictated but not read.

  9. #689
    Quote Originally Posted by Insanoflex View Post
    maybe if it didnt have soooo much wrong with it at launch which should have been sorted pre-launch.. we would have got content updates and probably kept the players and subscription.
    Since 1.2 sorted out almost everything that should have been handled prelaunch and came out only 3 months after the game shipped, that doesn't really excuse charging people 15 dollars a month for the next half a year of 0 content.
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  10. #690
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Since 1.2 sorted out almost everything that should have been handled prelaunch and came out only 3 months after the game shipped, that doesn't really excuse charging people 15 dollars a month for the next half a year of 0 content.
    when the game is broken.. you dont buy a sub. The first month is vital.
    Dictated but not read.

  11. #691
    Let's just look at the track record of subscription MMOs.
    WoW is an anomaly. If you want to use that as an example, be my guest. I always enjoy watching.

    EQ = now f2p
    EQ2 = now f2p
    War = still subscription with less than 50k subscribers (we think)
    Rift = still subscription with about 400k subscribers (estimates)
    lotro = now f2p
    Aion = now f2p
    Tera = now f2p
    TSW = now b2p
    AoC = now f2p
    swtor = now f2p
    gw2 = launched as b2p (still getting content updates)
    firefall = launching as f2p
    defiance = launcing as b2p
    Vindictus = launched as f2p
    dcuo= now f2p
    marvel heroes= launching as f2p
    path of exile= launched as f2p
    eve = subscription, 500k (with a way to pay for your subscription in game)
    NWO = launching as f2p
    DDO = now f2p
    EON= launching as f2p
    Dust514 = f2p

    ect ect ect

    Subscription models fail most of the time and usually take most the player base with them (80%+) and when the games switch to f2p they usually gain both players and cash.
    Last edited by Bardarian; 2013-03-11 at 03:33 PM.
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  12. #692
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    You are seeing pre f2p swtor through extreme nostalgia. Keep in mind that we had no content updates for the entire summer and half the fall (the only thing we got during that time was the easter egg hunt that lasted about 1-2 hours). Around when swtor went f2p we actually saw an increase in content, and have seen more content since.

    The fact is, when swtor was a subscription game we got less.
    Quote Originally Posted by Insanoflex View Post
    maybe if it didnt have soooo much wrong with it at launch which should have been sorted pre-launch.. we would have got content updates and probably kept the players and subscription.
    what Insanoflex said...my point is that swtor failed as a sub game. The ideal would be that swtor would be the quality game(aka, a game EA would wait to be ready for release) and keep a good playerbase in order to have steady "quality" content update. Personally I was ok with the game and I didn't mind to wait for the game to get "complete" and start pulling out content. But the game failed and went f2p and after that it was irreversible...

    and now comes the article I quoted above about MMO success..
    is your MMO being updated, and is it being updated in a way you enjoy.
    thats another problem with f2p games. They often get updated in a way I don't enjoy

    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Let's just look at the track record of subscription MMOs.
    WoW is an anomaly. If you want to use that as an example, be my guest. I always enjoy watching.

    EQ = now f2p
    EQ2 = now f2p
    War = still subscription with less than 50k subscribers (we think)
    Rift = still subscription with about 400k subscribers (estimates)
    lotro = now f2p
    Aion = now f2p
    Tera = now f2p
    TSW = now b2p
    AoC = now f2p
    swtor = now f2p
    gw2 = launched as b2p (still getting content updates)
    firefall = launching as f2p
    defiance = launcing as b2p
    Vindictus = launched as f2p
    dcuo= now f2p
    marvel heroes= launching as f2p

    ect ect ect

    Subscription models fail most of the time and usually take most the player base with them (80%+) and when the games switch to f2p they usually gain both players and cash.
    EVE - 500k subs 10 years now

    so you believe that the problem of all these MMOs was the business model?And why we must ignore wow? Those games just failed to convince the people that their games worth the money. And the reason in my opinion is because all of them tried to make a game to please all the playerbase instead of target a specific audience and make a game for them, like EVE did.

    Put aside the Korean MMOs cause Aion had around 4 million subs steady in Korean/Asia for years and Tera now is in top 3 Asia MMOs, both with subscription model. These games just cannot appeal to the western people, doesn't mean they failed.

    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Since 1.2 sorted out almost everything that should have been handled prelaunch and came out only 3 months after the game shipped, that doesn't really excuse charging people 15 dollars a month for the next half a year of 0 content.
    What content updates did we had in Vanilla and TBC and how often?When a game is fresh and new and need content after 2-3 months then something is wrong with the game...For me this is the problem of casual games, when the game is very easy you either need to provide content every 2 months or to change your game into dailycraft to keep people. Every game targeted the wow 10 million subs and they dreamed millions of customers instead of make a "niche" game for specific playerbase and get a solid 400-500k playerbase to keep them running for years and still have lot of profit.
    Last edited by papajohn4; 2013-03-11 at 03:35 PM.
    The trick of selling a PvP-MMO is creating the illusion among gankers that they are respectable fighters while protecting them from respectable fights, as their less skilled half would be massacred and quit instead of “HTFU” as they claim.

  13. #693
    Quote Originally Posted by papajohn4 View Post
    EVE - 500k subs 10 years now
    I'll add that one. So we have, what? 3 major mmos with subscription compared to everything else lol.
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  14. #694
    The ELO system they are using in PvP strongly suggests the game will be p2p, as that system encourages continuous play of your character, as opposed to GW2 type of game where you can quit for months and not really be left behind.

    I've said it before, the reason so many MMOs have been forced to go f2p is not because p2p is a mad model, its because those games aren't worth paying for. People will be happy to pay a monthly fee if the game is good.

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  15. #695
    EQ is 14 years old lol
    EQ2 was sub based for 8 years
    non western mmo's doing badly or experiementing with payment models.. shocking.
    console mmo's lol.. non crossplatform (until the one just announced) is always a bad idea.
    Dictated but not read.

  16. #696
    Quote Originally Posted by papajohn4 View Post
    what Insanoflex said...my point is that swtor failed as a sub game.
    And what? Everyone else failed as sub games too?

    The track record for sub based games is not good. Period.

    I am saying, that for this games sake, they should avoid that pitfall altogether and launch as b2p / f2p like others have begun to.
    Historically, launching as subscription has been the kiss of near death for most MMOs.
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  17. #697
    lol saying games which were sub based for 8 years out of 9 as failing is a joke.. im sorry but thats just nonsense. We have games like DAOC which is over 10 years old and still requires a sub.

    I think we have reached a point where you can no longer release average games and expect people to pay subscriptions.. thats all we've learnt. There is definitely a big and strong market out there for subscription based mmo's.

    consoles need to find the right payment model because youre already paying for premium online for 2/3 of the consoles out there.
    Dictated but not read.

  18. #698
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    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    I've said it before, the reason so many MMOs have been forced to go f2p is not because p2p is a mad model, its because those games aren't worth paying for. People will be happy to pay a monthly fee if the game is good.
    Any proof? So the only good games in existence are World of Warcraft, Rift, Eve, and WAR? Like...really?

    I mean I can't even take you seriously for expressing that opinion. You could punch so many holes in that argument from so many angles even with proof. Even just looking at it through an economist's lense you would not draw that conclusion.
    BAD WOLF

  19. #699
    Quote Originally Posted by Insanoflex View Post
    We have games like DAOC which is over 10 years old and still requires a sub.
    Which has what? 20k subscribers? Like warhammer, that's an example of why subscriptions are bad.
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  20. #700
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Which has what? 20k subscribers? Like warhammer, that's an example of why subscriptions are bad.
    lol and what percentage of free to play players actually spend money? and thats 200k-500k just on the sub.
    Dictated but not read.

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