1. #7781
    Quote Originally Posted by Insanoflex View Post
    im sorry if a steady income of 15m+ per month isnt enough for an mmo then its doing something wrong anyway.
    Why settle for less?
    With 1m subscribers, it's better to switch to F2P and make real money.

    That is what this is about, making money.
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  2. #7782
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    To be a little less pithy (I'm sorry to break the theme we've got going on here), betas serve to refine all of the game's systems.
    I don't think you're getting what he meant by design flaws though. He doesn't mean a quest is broken, or that their are quests, but simply how they designed the game. Seeing how they view questing, leveling, progression, gear, professions, raiding etc.

    To some people there are things that immediately stand out that won't be rectified by a 'do over'. Changing a tenet of their design is basically redoing the whole game over. It's wildly out of the ordinary for something like this to happen this late in the game, which is why their admitted failure with questing is pretty monumental. That also will consume the majority of their time going forward. They simply cannot afford that level of design deviance.

    And to be fair, all they are changing is the presentation and completion credit of the exact same quest system...that's not really a shift in design so much as refinement of the same design of questing. You still pick up quests and complete them accordingly. So while I get what you're saying, what you're saying is just not what design flaws are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    By the time Wildstar is out of beta, the controversy will be colder than a dead angel on ice.
    Much like the interest in the game after so many people were never given a chance to become invested before this faux pas.

    Look I still love the concept, love the personality, but I'm now on the outside looking in at a potential train wreck. I'm not going to personally invest in something that illogically puts itself at risk. Like I said before, it may be a runaway success and replicate WoW all over again. While this is the most unlikely thing in the MMO universe, it is always a possibility.

    PS - Being pithy is what forum distinction is all about. If you don't say what you mean and mean what you say, everyone will fill in their own meaning in lieu of your lack of expression.

    Be a bold butterfly and let words eloquently roll off your fingers. The worst case scenario is that people think you are a jerk. Thankfully it is a warm blanket of "can't cares" and misinterpretation...so you can just laugh and be a whimsical literary unicorn at your leisure.

    That's what I do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel0ns View Post
    If your game is good, it will retain that amount, period.
    False, subjective, etc. Was this the crutch of your argument? Historically proven untrue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mel0ns View Post
    Feel free to google SWTOR budget and you will find plenty of sources.
    You might want to rethink what you assume to be factual sources. We've had this discussion for hundreds of pages on the appropriate forum. The number varies wildly. EA and Bioware have never stepped out and announced how much they spent. That is the only factual data you could have on the matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mel0ns View Post
    The 100 million for Wildstar is something i saw in this thread apparently, but it does not sound that bad considering the size of the studio compared to Bioware.
    Likewise, until NCSoft or Carbine announce a hard number you are just assuming numbers as facts. Pretty much nothing your talking about is based in truth. That's not a great place to spin an argument from unless you are a politician.
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  3. #7783
    I was really hoping Wildstar would be B2P like GW2 coming from NCsoft. Sadly it is not and i will not be picking it up until i see how easy it is to make gold and how much the Cread is going for after a few months of play.

  4. #7784
    Quote Originally Posted by Mel0ns View Post
    2. Feel free to google SWTOR budget and you will find plenty of sources. The 100 million for Wildstar is something i saw in this thread apparently, but it does not sound that bad considering the size of the studio compared to Bioware.



    Or, SWTOR sub numbers dropped way below 500 000 and they had to go F2P, forgot about that part?
    Claims about swtors budget range from 50 million to 600 million. Any hard facts? Nope.

    Also, would you like to prove that swtor dropped below 500,000? I would enjoy watching you try. At last count it was "just under 1 million, well over 500k"
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  5. #7785
    Quote Originally Posted by waddlez View Post
    Lets pretend Titan is subscription despite Blizzard saying it probably wont be.

    You don't think they would have 1million subs?
    I don't think this can be a viable discussion point. Because we don't have any concrete information of what Titan is or isn't, it's budget, platform(s) or what it will cost.

    For all intents and purposes to this conversation, Titan is imaginary. It's some game of unknown design being made under unknown conditions for an unknown audience using unknown gameplay mechanisms and unknown advertising & market positing to be released at some unknown time in the future.

    I mean. What kind of rational conclusion could one possibly draw as to the potential sub numbers of a game that is in such a state?

    We do have a firm grasp of the current market. Games in the current market and those releasing into the foreseeable future of the market. We can talk about that, speculate on, etc.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-08-20 at 02:45 PM.

  6. #7786
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeek Daniels View Post
    I was really hoping Wildstar would be B2P like GW2 coming from NCsoft. Sadly it is not and i will not be picking it up until i see how easy it is to make gold and how much the Cread is going for after a few months of play.
    But that's not even the issue.

    If currency is easy to get, then the price of CREDD would rise.
    If currency is easy to get, then they have to put in a ton of gold sinks to prevent hyper inflation. (thus making it hard)
    If currency is easy to get, then new players are at a disadvantage in purchasing anything off the auction house, never mind CREDD. (20 gold for a stack of peacebloom)

    CREDD will always have a real world value of 20 dollars. The in game currency's value will fluctuate relative to that.
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  7. #7787
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    False, subjective, etc. Was this the crutch of your argument? Historically proven untrue.

    You might want to rethink what you assume to be factual sources. We've had this discussion for hundreds of pages on the appropriate forum. The number varies wildly. EA and Bioware have never stepped out and announced how much they spent. That is the only factual data you could have on the matter.

    Likewise, until NCSoft or Carbine announce a hard number you are just assuming numbers as facts. Pretty much nothing your talking about is based in truth. That's not a great place to spin an argument from unless you are a politician.
    How is it historically proven untrue? Its not subjective at all, its fact. Not if its good enough for you, if its good enough for the majority, see the difference?

    I guess LA times just took their 200 million from thin air then. Im pretty sure they have a reliable source. But in the end the exact number does not matter, if it was 220 or 180 changes nothing. We all know that SWTORs budget is bugger than Wildstars, othervise you are just naive. And if SWTOR needed 500k subs, Wildstar will probably do with 400k, most likely lower. I remember reading way back that Wow projected a sub base of 400k before they launched, which would have been enough for them.

    You just like to pick apart what doesnt suit your opinion. Merely nothing people are talking about in this thread are facts, just because one, two or three games did not survive with a sub model doesnt mean another game cant. Or is that written in stone somewhere?

  8. #7788
    Dreadlord Vexies's Avatar
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    CREDD will always have a real world value of 20 dollars. The in game currency's value will fluctuate relative to that.
    Yep not a fan. Its hardly a hybrid and a laughable option. Sure in the strictest sense but a super unimaginative and restrictive model. There are so many potential train wrecks that right now as we speak gold farmers are falling all over themselves salivating and waiting for more info so they can find ways to abuse it.

  9. #7789
    Quote Originally Posted by Mel0ns View Post
    I guess LA times just took their 200 million from thin air then. Im pretty sure they have a reliable source.
    ...

    It's the same source that said it was 100 million, 200 million, and 500 million. How can it be a reliable source if it keeps changing what it think it cost?
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  10. #7790
    Pandaren Monk Viscoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post

    PS - Being pithy is what forum distinction is all about. If you don't say what you mean and mean what you say, everyone will fill in their own meaning in lieu of your lack of expression.

    Be a bold butterfly and let words eloquently roll off your fingers. The worst case scenario is that people think you are a jerk. Thankfully it is a warm blanket of "can't cares" and misinterpretation...so you can just laugh and be a whimsical literary unicorn at your leisure.

    That's what I do.
    Off topic: Kitty, that was some of the purplest prose I've seen on these forums. :P (Please don't take that as me being mean, more like a friendly jab in your side.)

    On topic: I have nothing to say about this, other than "I was hoping for a sub model with no cash shop." The cash shop drove me off of WoW. If they go F2P in a year and add a cash shop, then it's fine, whatever.
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  11. #7791
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    I don't think you're getting what he meant by design flaws though. He doesn't mean a quest is broken, or that their are quests, but simply how they designed the game. Seeing how they view questing, leveling, progression, gear, professions, raiding etc.

    To some people there are things that immediately stand out that won't be rectified by a 'do over'. Changing a tenet of their design is basically redoing the whole game over. It's wildly out of the ordinary for something like this to happen this late in the game, which is why their admitted failure with questing is pretty monumental. That also will consume the majority of their time going forward. They simply cannot afford that level of design deviance.

    And to be fair, all they are changing is the presentation and completion credit of the exact same quest system...that's not really a shift in design so much as refinement of the same design of questing. You still pick up quests and complete them accordingly. So while I get what you're saying, what you're saying is just not what design flaws are.
    In which case the player in question wouldn't have been interested in the game to begin with, because it was not designed for them.

    I think the crux of the matter here is: are there enough potential players out there to sustain a game like Wildstar with this sort of business model?

    I don't have the answer to that. All I have is conjecture. I think there are, you probably disagree. But I think both of us agree it won't be an insanely popular game like World of Warcraft was. Games like WoW and Counter-Strike (back in its day) are freak occurrences. They're perfect storms, and the developers should know it by now. Anyone, fan or dev, who believes their game will be the next breakout phenomenon with millions of players is deluded. My prediction is that Wildstar will most likely hold on to between 100 and 300 thousand subscriptions for at least a year, and likely open some sort of trial system like World of Warcraft did after a while.

    As an aside, I really hope they'll have some sort of dynamic player allocation system worked out, because there will be low-population servers after a while. Most players naturally gravitate towards higher-population servers, after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Much like the interest in the game after so many people were never given a chance to become invested before this faux pas.

    Look I still love the concept, love the personality, but I'm now on the outside looking in at a potential train wreck. I'm not going to personally invest in something that illogically puts itself at risk. Like I said before, it may be a runaway success and replicate WoW all over again. While this is the most unlikely thing in the MMO universe, it is always a possibility.
    You can't really count on hype that could have been, now can you? :P

    Some people have been lost because of this, other people became interested. I don't think it's a net gain, but I also don't think it's a huge loss. The entire thing is a calculated risk, like any other decision the developers had to make (such as making mounts expensive enough to be used an an example in their release).


    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    PS - Being pithy is what forum distinction is all about. If you don't say what you mean and mean what you say, everyone will fill in their own meaning in lieu of your lack of expression.

    Be a bold butterfly and let words eloquently roll off your fingers. The worst case scenario is that people think you are a jerk. Thankfully it is a warm blanket of "can't cares" and misinterpretation...so you can just laugh and be a whimsical literary unicorn at your leisure.

    That's what I do.
    Wouldn't that being "verbose", though? I thought "pithy" meant "short and to the point". Ah, well. I like making long-ish posts either way. :P
    Roll the bones!

  12. #7792
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    I think the crux of the matter here is: are there enough potential players out there to sustain a game like Wildstar with this sort of business model?
    I think the best way to answer that is: "was there enough for any MMO to sustain this sort of business model launched in the past 9.5 years?"
    No. There was not.
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  13. #7793
    Quote Originally Posted by Bardarian View Post
    Claims about swtors budget range from 50 million to 600 million. Any hard facts? Nope.

    Also, would you like to prove that swtor dropped below 500,000? I would enjoy watching you try. At last count it was "just under 1 million, well over 500k"
    The LA Times is good enough for me, saying "nearly 200 million" As i said earlier, its still way above Wildstars, so the exact number does not matter.

    Why do i need to prove that? They lost 400k the first quarter, 400k the second(to under a million). How do you think their economists expected that to go over another half a year? Stop being so damn naive for once.

  14. #7794
    High Overlord Vexxie's Avatar
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    Yey, this thread has devolved into the standard MMOC garbage of bickering and throwing angry opinions at people.

    Will check back when people are prepared to approach the debate constructively.

  15. #7795
    Quote Originally Posted by Mel0ns View Post
    The LA Times is good enough for me, saying "nearly 200 million" As i said earlier, its still way above Wildstars, so the exact number does not matter.

    Why do i need to prove that? They lost 400k the first quarter, 400k the second(to under a million). How do you think their economists expected that to go over another half a year? Stop being so damn naive for once.
    They are quoting a guy who has no idea. Whose estimate ranges from 100 million to 500 million.

    Also, retention in mmos isn't linear. Stop being so damn naive for once.
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  16. #7796
    Quote Originally Posted by Bardarian View Post
    ...

    It's the same source that said it was 100 million, 200 million, and 500 million. How can it be a reliable source if it keeps changing what it think it cost?
    Because the Times had to have the same source? I dont see them revealing it anywhere, do you?

  17. #7797
    Quote Originally Posted by Mel0ns View Post
    Because the Times had to have the same source? I dont see them revealing it anywhere, do you?
    Dear god.

    Go and read the swtor subforums archive on this. You have no idea what you are talking about.
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  18. #7798
    Quote Originally Posted by Vexies View Post
    lets assume either of the above is accurate. That is what SWTOR claimed.. yet they went free to play anyway. Clearly that is not enough for those funding the development of these games to be considered profitably enough. Sure they could of eked out a profit but when B2P and F2P options bring in more.. and clearly they do for these companies because they sure didnt switch to them for charity its clear what models are winning out in todays market.
    My assumption is that TOR and Rift had projections we aren't privy to and saw a steady decline in subs so they both went the F2P route to stop the bleeding. I'd guess that 500K was an accurate number for profitability and their own internal analysis showed them falling below that line at some point in the future.

    Prior to WOW 500K in subs meant a wildly successful MMO. WOW skewed the ROI expectations for the money people who invested in all the "failed" MMO's after WOW. Those bean counters are the ones who forced so many early releases like WAR and AoC which doomed those games.

    I get the feeling that we're at the beginning of a new business paradigm for MMO's. Companies look to EVE as an example of creating a game that doesn't try to cater to everyone yet is financially very successful.

    I'm happy they went to the sub model.

  19. #7799
    Quote Originally Posted by Bardarian View Post
    Dear god.

    Go and read the swtor subforums archive on this. You have no idea what you are talking about.
    How about you link it then, why would i read a subforum i have no interest at all for?

    And if you cant see that losing half your sub base in 6 months, is pretty scary towards the next half year, im just done talking with you. Trying too hard to defend something that just isnt reality.

  20. #7800
    I am Murloc! SirRobin's Avatar
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    Wow! This thread is really burning through the pages now.

    All I can really say is that while going P2P might be a nice vote of confidence in their game from Carbine? It doesn't really give them any wiggle room. Haven't we been through this scenario already? Several times?

    Hope they don't screw it up.

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