1. #6781
    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    What makes you think I'm mad about them? Its a discussion about the f2p model and I'm simply trying to understand theirs.



    Feel free to elaborate. I don't think that is what I'm asking for at all. I simply want a pay option that allows me to ignore the paywall and enjoy every bit of content (cosmetic, mounts, or otherwise) that is put into the game. SWTOR most definitely does not allow that.
    What you want to describe is you want cosmetics for free by blindly paying a set amount each month instead of physically controlling your money. That isn't a hybrid that's a subscription with a glorified trial.

    RIFT and TERA model is the game is 100% free (no content is behind a "paywall") and there is cosmetics you can buy in the store. Since you want to pay $15 a month anyway you can still do that it's just you get to choose what you want.

    Basically you want a subscription with a trial and you give them money blindly and hope they give you what you want instead of you picking exactly what you want.
    Last edited by zito; 2013-07-30 at 03:08 PM.

  2. #6782
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    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    As far as Rift and Tera are concerned, are you saying that everything in those stores are available to subscribers without having to pay or save up your monthly allowance of made up store bucks?
    Oh, not to be mean, but apparently we have spotted the mythical Unicorn. People said they existed and we all deny it, because we don't share that view. Basically, someone who wants everything 'for free'.

    I understand you are willing to pay the $15, but you are essentially demanding that every pixel created be just given to you at no further commitment. Even though it's contradictory, because you said you don't want to deal with cash shops. So really, you just want to keep up with the Joneses without paying for it.

    No business outside of gaming works like that...why would you think this would be different? Not ever, ever, ever going to happen.
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  3. #6783
    Quote Originally Posted by Vexies View Post
    In terms of that supposedly gated awesome cosmetic crap that most F2P games bloat there cash shops with and the model your talking about is.. how much free crap do you get with that sub? It inevitably comes down to some sort of stipend because unlimited just doesn't fly with the F2P customer plucking down cash for the cash shop stuff. Do you get one shiny cosmetic help per character, per account, two, three for your sub? You can see the obvious issues with that right away and see why your unlikely to every see that enter the market.
    I do see why they would not want that, and thats exactly why I don't like these MMO stores. There is no doubt in my mind that a big part of the model involves getting the average would-be subscriber to pay more than the usual $15 a month. I don't fault them for it either, if people are willing to pay it then thats their prerogative. However, Wildstar is a game with an undecided payment model, so I'm simply offering my input on what I'd like to see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    What you want to describe is you want cosmetics for free by blindly paying a set amount each month instead of physically controlling your money. That isn't a hybrid that's a subscription with a glorified trial.
    I'm sorry, I'm still not understanding the "trial" part of this. I want cosmetics for free by blindly paying a set amount. Again, you are making no sense, if I'm paying then its obviously not free.

    [quote]RIFT and TERA model is the game is 100% free (no content is behind a "paywall") and there is cosmetics you can buy in the store. Since you want to pay $15 a month anyway you can still do that it's just you get to choose what you want.

    Basically you want a subscription with a trial and you give them money blindly and hope they give you what you want instead of you picking exactly what you want.
    Basically, I want a true subscription option. If I commit myself to the game and agree to hand over my bank account information I'm saying that I trust the game developer and I have confidence that they will deliver continue to bring me quality content -- you know, just as its always worked.

  4. #6784
    Deleted
    I rather pay for a good game to make sure that there will be content and the stuff is actually enjoing there work. I dont like f2p models, regardless if its working or not. And the main reason is that there will always be people to join and quit the game, over and over - judging the endgame as "f2p" - so that there will be never a "society" within the game. And thats what makes an MMO and MMO - people get to know eachother and play together, one Community. No f2p model will ever offer that.

  5. #6785
    I'm sorry, I'm still not understanding the "trial" part of this. I want cosmetics for free by blindly paying a set amount. Again, you are making no sense, if I'm paying then its obviously not free.
    You stated you want a subscription option on a F2P game that you don't have to deal with the "paywall". That's just a subscription game with a trial as I've said before. It's blindly giving the company money in hoping you get something in return instead of you manually spending your money on what you want and getting something+ in return.

    Basically, I want a true subscription option. If I commit myself to the game and agree to hand over my bank account information I'm saying that I trust the game developer and I have confidence that they will deliver continue to bring me quality content -- you know, just as its always worked.
    That's blind ignorance, subscription hasn't always worked. In fact it still doesn't work and it's been explained before in the last couple of pages so I don't need to repeat it again. WoW's declining subscription is proof that it's not working, it's now lost over half it's peak subscription since Wotlk and they been doing nothing but what they always did since.
    Last edited by zito; 2013-07-30 at 03:38 PM.

  6. #6786
    Quote Originally Posted by Talice View Post
    I rather pay for a good game to make sure that there will be content and the stuff is actually enjoing there work. I dont like f2p models, regardless if its working or not. And the main reason is that there will always be people to join and quit the game, over and over - judging the endgame as "f2p" - so that there will be never a "society" within the game. And thats what makes an MMO and MMO - people get to know eachother and play together, one Community. No f2p model will ever offer that.
    Too bad that subscription games don't offer regular content updates every few months. They tend to go 9 months without any content every other year.
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  7. #6787
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    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    Basically, I want a true subscription option
    We can stop sugar coating things now. You are giving veiled anti-cash shop rhetoric, with the caveat that if a cash shop is present you want all the goodies at no extra cost for yourself. Neither of these views are realistic, but hey...we're all entitled to our opinions.

    To respond to you seriously, a game without that extra revenue in this era of MMOs isn't going to provide you with much if any content. Not because it's not possible, but because no company is going to finance that sort of operation. No investors will start it up, etc.
    BAD WOLF

  8. #6788
    Cash shops are extremely important.

    They make it so those who can pay more do so those who can't can still play. Low server population kill the fun more than anything else in an MMO. It could be the greatest game you've ever played but if you can't find a group for the content then it will suck.

    But hey, some people still want to embrace ideas that hurt MMOs.
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  9. #6789
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Oh, not to be mean, but apparently we have spotted the mythical Unicorn. People said they existed and we all deny it, because we don't share that view. Basically, someone who wants everything 'for free'.
    If I'm paying subscription fee, that would mean I'm not getting it for free...

    I understand you are willing to pay the $15, but you are essentially demanding that every pixel created be just given to you at no further commitment.
    Subscriptions are, generally, paid per month... I would say that is the very definition of a commitment.

    Even though it's contradictory, because you said you don't want to deal with cash shops. So really, you just want to keep up with the Joneses without paying for it. No business outside of gaming works like that...why would you think this would be different? Not ever, ever, ever going to happen.
    So are MMOs not video games anymore? I'm still not sure why an option to continue to pay for an MMO the way it has been traditionally done is something that can "not ever" happen.

  10. #6790
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    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    If I'm paying subscription fee, that would mean I'm not getting it for free...
    Intentionally ignored where I clearly stated it's not actually free.
    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    Subscriptions are, generally, paid per month... I would say that is the very definition of a commitment.
    Intentionally ignored where I clearly stated further commitment, IE you want the cheapest way possible to have anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    So are MMOs not video games anymore? I'm still not sure why an option to continue to pay for an MMO the way it has been traditionally done is something that can "not ever" happen.
    No no, this can't turn into a factually incorrect argument of semantics no matter how much you want it to.

    You are asking for any new products to be included for the same price. Otherwise you are demanding that they not create new products. But surely you know exactly what you are saying or you wouldn't be tip toeing around everyone pointing out the truth to you.
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  11. #6791
    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    You stated you want a subscription option on a F2P game that you don't have to deal with the "paywall". That's just a subscription game with a trial as I've said before. It's blindly giving the company money in hoping you get something in return instead of you manually spending your money on what you want and getting something+ in return.
    Wrong. Thats a f2p game with the option of a true subscription. Where does a "trial" fit in at all?


    That's blind ignorance, subscription hasn't always worked. In fact it still doesn't work and it's been explained before in the last couple of pages so I don't need to repeat it again. WoW's declining subscription is proof that it's not working, it's now lost over half it's peak subscription since Wotlk and they been doing nothing but what they always did since.
    The subscription model has absolutely worked for many years and for many games. The difference is that I'm not advocating a strict subscription based system. there are still a huge number of people willing to pay subscriptions, as are there huge numbers of people who enjoy the cash shops. I'm talking about a hybrid system where people can "manually choose" how they pay for the game. What an evil and ignorant concept.. right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    We can stop sugar coating things now. You are giving veiled anti-cash shop rhetoric, with the caveat that if a cash shop is present you want all the goodies at no extra cost for yourself. Neither of these views are realistic, but hey...we're all entitled to our opinions.

    To respond to you seriously, a game without that extra revenue in this era of MMOs isn't going to provide you with much if any content. Not because it's not possible, but because no company is going to finance that sort of operation. No investors will start it up, etc.
    I'm not sugar coating anything. I think I've been pretty clear that *I* don't like cash shops. I'm not advocating that the game not have one for people who want that option. For some reason, my wanting to pay a simple subscription offends a few of you.

  12. #6792
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    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    I'm talking about a hybrid system where people can "manually choose" how they pay for the game. What an evil and ignorant concept.. right?
    You're talking about having your cake and eating it too, which everyone in this thread can see as the most ridiculous desire we've possibly ever heard regarding cash shops and payment models. I give more credence to someone outright wanting to end F2P, even though they're wrong, than this view.

    On a logical standpoint, you should be able to do some quick math as to why it financially cannot work for a company unless of course their cash shop items cost pennies...which would be insane.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    For some reason, my wanting to pay a simple subscription offends a few of you.
    It's more that you don't understand what the words you are typing really mean. You aren't getting the implications, which everyone responding to you does loud and clear.
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  13. #6793
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Intentionally ignored where I clearly stated it's not actually free.
    I didn't ignore anything. If I'm paying a sub then I'm paying for the content.

    Intentionally ignored where I clearly stated further commitment, IE you want the cheapest way possible to have anything.
    No, I'm not looking for "the cheapest way possible". I'm looking for the path of least resistance and the peace of mind that I don't have to deal with the type of bullshit practices I've seen in cash shops.

    No no, this can't turn into a factually incorrect argument of semantics no matter how much you want it to.

    You are asking for any new products to be included for the same price. Otherwise you are demanding that they not create new products. But surely you know exactly what you are saying or you wouldn't be tip toeing around everyone pointing out the truth to you.
    No, I'm saying I want to continue paying a subscription fee the same way I always have. If you want a cash shop, that is fine and I don't want to take that away from you. However, I would like an option for people like myself.

  14. #6794
    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    I'm looking for the path of least resistance and the peace of mind that I don't have to deal with the type of bullshit practices I've seen in cash shops.
    I've got an idea.

    Don't click on the cash shop.
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  15. #6795
    Wrong. Thats a f2p game with the option of a true subscription. Where does a "trial" fit in at all?
    True subscription meaning what subscription games already are? Meaning the game will just be a subscription game with a glorified trial. It's not that hard to think about.

    The subscription model has absolutely worked for many years and for many games.
    It doesn't work, It hasn't worked for years. WoW is not proof enough that it doesn't work now since it lost half it's subscription and not giving "quality content" for 9-12 months at a time. And I don't consider a bunch of boring ass dailys quality content that last 4 months. I call that time gated content.

    The difference is that I'm not advocating a strict subscription based system. there are still a huge number of people willing to pay subscriptions, as are there huge numbers of people who enjoy the cash shops. I'm talking about a hybrid system where people can "manually choose" how they pay for the game. What an evil and ignorant concept.. right?
    You want an option just like normal subscriptions but offer a F2P option that's exactly the same except you don't have to pay? Unrealistic.

    No, I'm not looking for "the cheapest way possible". I'm looking for the path of least resistance and the peace of mind that I don't have to deal with the type of bullshit practices I've seen in cash shops.
    The cheapest way is F2P without opening the cash shop.....
    Last edited by zito; 2013-07-30 at 04:20 PM.

  16. #6796
    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    True subscription meaning what subscription games already are? Meaning the game will just be a subscription game with a glorified trial. It's not that hard to think about.



    It doesn't work, It hasn't worked for years. WoW is not proof enough that it doesn't work now since it lost half it's subscription and not giving "quality content" for 9-12 months at a time. And I don't consider a bunch of boring ass dailys quality content that last 4 months. I call that time gated content.



    You want an option just like normal subscriptions but offer a F2P option that's exactly the same except you don't have to pay? Unrealistic.
    WoW releases more frequent patches and quality content than other non-subscription MMOs. This idea that WoW content isn't released fast enough is bogus. In fact, it's arguable that WoW content is released too fast in the sense that most progression raiding guilds don't have enough time to clear the content before the next tier is out.

    You're also completely distorting what he said and attacking a strawman. It's not unrealistic to have 2 payment models, even TOR has 2 payment models. They haven't done it right though.

    There is nothing worse than a F2P game. F2P MMO = completely pointless to play.
    Last edited by paralleluniverse; 2013-07-30 at 04:27 PM.

  17. #6797
    WoW releases more frequent patches and quality content that other non-subscription MMO. This idea that WoW content isn't released fast enough is bogus. In fact, it's arguable that WoW content is released too fast in the sense that most progression raiding guilds don't have enough time to clear the content before the next tier is out.
    1 raid every 4-6 months and a handful of time gated daily's is not quality content. It's limited content. Secondly we both know WoW releasing "faster content" is a recent thing. Wotlk and Cataclsym went longer without content updates period that are "subscription" has been funding. Don't get me started on expansion transition of going almost a year (for both wrath and cata to MoP) with zero content and then you had to end up buying the new content even though your subscription has been funding it. And FYI when Rift was still a sub it was producing more content then WoW sorry (and still producing content during the expansion transition)

    And if you want to count games that are not sub, GW2 beats both Rift and WoW in content updates.

    You're also completely distorting what he said and attacking a strawman. Where did he say make and F2P and subscription the same (how is that even possible)?
    Because he is basically stating he wants both options to be exactly the same which is unrealistic.

    In the next, there is nothing worse than a F2P game. F2P MMO = completely pointless to play.
    Subjective. Even more subjective since there is only 3 subscription MMO's still thriving on a sub to this day. FF14 might add a 4th but it's unlikely it will stay a sub for long.

  18. #6798
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    You're talking about having your cake and eating it too, which everyone in this thread can see as the most ridiculous desire we've possibly ever heard regarding cash shops and payment models. I give more credence to someone outright wanting to end F2P, even though they're wrong, than this view.

    On a logical standpoint, you should be able to do some quick math as to why it financially cannot work for a company unless of course their cash shop items cost pennies...which would be insane.

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    It's more that you don't understand what the words you are typing really mean. You aren't getting the implications, which everyone responding to you does loud and clear.
    What are you talking about? Its practically working right now. As we've already discussed, most of these games are already using a very similar model except subs get a stipend. All I'm requesting is to remove the stipend and just give me the content -- I wouldn't even be opposed to a higher tiered sub that lets me pay a lil extra to get rid of it.

  19. #6799
    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    What are you talking about? Its practically working right now. As we've already discussed, most of these games are already using a very similar model except subs get a stipend. All I'm requesting is to remove the stipend and just give me the content -- I wouldn't even be opposed to a higher tiered sub that lets me pay a lil extra to get rid of it.
    The subscription for those games aren't giving you the content. It's giving you a different subscription that will give you something different (RIFT patron status) it's not locking content behind it, the content is free.

  20. #6800
    The Unstoppable Force Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    All I'm requesting is to remove the stipend and just give me the content
    And around the circle goes.

    No. All you're requesting is that you be allowed to have any item on a cash shop or not have a cash shop, all for the low, low price of $x/month. Both are ridiculous with the current market, but the first one is the worst offender and what you keep reiterating.

    Done with this elaborate non conversation now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardarian View Post
    I've got an idea.

    Don't click on the cash shop.
    Self control is apparently created by having a subscription give your mind a virtual tabula rasa when it comes to consumerism. What a strange world we live in that these sort of ideals can be formed independent of facts and common sense. I will continue to document these strange phenomena for my eventual Nobel winning dissertation.
    BAD WOLF

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