1. #7741
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    You just dissed on someone earlier for judging how people spend their money, but now you judge someone on what they expect from a game? That's tacky.
    Yep. I made a slightly forced joke based on the fact they seemed to imply they wanted a "new and interesting" business model, because that's as tangential to the game itself being new and interesting as it can be. I also gave good advice on waiting for the game to be released and played for little while before passing judgment on it, since MMOs by definition have their mechanics stretched and warped when they're released and need time to stabilize.

    Neither business model in the market is "new and interesting", all are at their core ways to make money to support the game and make a profit on top of that. If someone completely lost interest in Wildstar because they don't like the payment options then I'd wager two things:
    1 - they're not part of the demographic Carbine itself is aiming for, and...
    2 - they weren't all that interested in the game to begin with and were instead projecting their expectations on it.

    And both of those things are fine. Not everybody plays the same games. Hell, I'm definitely not part of EVE Online's target demographic. But I sustain that railing on a game's quality/success or people who are interested on it because you don't like that you have to pay for it is the equivalent of railing on Netflix and their users because you don't like to pay for movies over the Internet regardless of the quality of their service.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Design flaws =/= bugs.
    Bug fixing < Beta testing.

    To be a little less pithy (I'm sorry to break the theme we've got going on here), betas serve to refine all of the game's systems. The fact that Carbine is doing precisely that is proof of the argument. Some games go through dozens of design, coding and testing iterations before a system is released, which means the overarching game design is also fluid. The last things that should be worked on in a beta are bugs that don't make the game unplayable, which is why I suggested the beta could only be used as a good reference for game design near the end of the process. And even then, the beta by definition has fewer people and less emergent gameplay than the released version, which also affects how the game plays.

    And just so I don't sound like a total fanboy: I think Wildstar is going to be successful (in the sense that it will cover its costs and keep on going) with the subscription model, but it's not going to be a breakout title or anything exceptional. What I predict is going to end up the point of greatest criticism (if the developers remain true to their word) is that it tried too hard to emulate Vanilla World of Warcraft, which is a model that simply doesn't work anymore. The folks who were hyped on that are going to say it compromised too much and call it a failure.

    By the way, for people who are criticizing Carbine's PR department... keep in mind they released this information over six months in advance of the game's release. By the time Wildstar is out of beta, the controversy will be colder than a dead angel on ice.
    Nothing ever bothers Juular.

  2. #7742
    The Unstoppable Force Kelimbror's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Bear Taco, Left Hand of Death
    Posts
    21,280
    Quote Originally Posted by Mel0ns View Post
    So Wildstar with half the budget SWTOR had
    1) Thinking any new sub game will retain 1 million subs is beyond being optimistic.

    2) Where are these numbers of both game's budgets for you to determine something so specific? Last time I checked you don't have any accurate information on SWTOR's cost nor Wildstar's (especially since they aren't done).

    Basically this is just more conjecture.
    BAD WOLF

  3. #7743
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    1) Thinking any new sub game will retain 1 million subs is beyond being optimistic.

    2) Where are these numbers of both game's budgets for you to determine something so specific? Last time I checked you don't have any accurate information on SWTOR's cost nor Wildstar's (especially since they aren't done).

    Basically this is just more conjecture.
    Lets pretend Titan is subscription despite Blizzard saying it probably wont be.

    You don't think they would have 1million subs?

  4. #7744
    Dreadlord Vexies's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    lost somewhere in the corn fields of middle America
    Posts
    991
    "The publisher claimed just after the game’s release in December that it needed to retain 500,000 subscribers to make Star Wars: The Old Republic profitable."

    So Wildstar with half the budget SWTOR had, wont even need that. So a healthy 1 million subs that stay in the game will be more than enough.
    lets assume either of the above is accurate. That is what SWTOR claimed.. yet they went free to play anyway. Clearly that is not enough for those funding the development of these games to be considered profitably enough. Sure they could of eked out a profit but when B2P and F2P options bring in more.. and clearly they do for these companies because they sure didnt switch to them for charity its clear what models are winning out in todays market.

  5. #7745
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    1) Thinking any new sub game will retain 1 million subs is beyond being optimistic.

    2) Where are these numbers of both game's budgets for you to determine something so specific? Last time I checked you don't have any accurate information on SWTOR's cost nor Wildstar's (especially since they aren't done).

    Basically this is just more conjecture.
    1. Or just pessimistic in your case since you are unhappy with their payment model. If your game is good, it will retain that amount, period.

    2. Feel free to google SWTOR budget and you will find plenty of sources. The 100 million for Wildstar is something i saw in this thread apparently, but it does not sound that bad considering the size of the studio compared to Bioware.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vexies View Post
    lets assume either of the above is accurate. That is what SWTOR claimed.. yet they went free to play anyway. Clearly that is not enough for those funding the development of these games to be considered profitably enough. Sure they could of eked out a profit but when B2P and F2P options bring in more.. and clearly they do for these companies because they sure didnt switch to them for charity its clear what models are winning out in todays market.
    Or, SWTOR sub numbers dropped way below 500 000 and they had to go F2P, forgot about that part?
    Last edited by mmoccb6aec8e5b; 2013-08-20 at 02:35 PM.

  6. #7746
    Quote Originally Posted by Insanoflex View Post
    im sorry if a steady income of 15m+ per month isnt enough for an mmo then its doing something wrong anyway.
    Why settle for less?
    With 1m subscribers, it's better to switch to F2P and make real money.

    That is what this is about, making money.
    (Warframe) - Dragon & Typhoon-
    (Neverwinter) - Trickster Rogue & Guardian Fighter -

  7. #7747
    The Unstoppable Force Kelimbror's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Bear Taco, Left Hand of Death
    Posts
    21,280
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    To be a little less pithy (I'm sorry to break the theme we've got going on here), betas serve to refine all of the game's systems.
    I don't think you're getting what he meant by design flaws though. He doesn't mean a quest is broken, or that their are quests, but simply how they designed the game. Seeing how they view questing, leveling, progression, gear, professions, raiding etc.

    To some people there are things that immediately stand out that won't be rectified by a 'do over'. Changing a tenet of their design is basically redoing the whole game over. It's wildly out of the ordinary for something like this to happen this late in the game, which is why their admitted failure with questing is pretty monumental. That also will consume the majority of their time going forward. They simply cannot afford that level of design deviance.

    And to be fair, all they are changing is the presentation and completion credit of the exact same quest system...that's not really a shift in design so much as refinement of the same design of questing. You still pick up quests and complete them accordingly. So while I get what you're saying, what you're saying is just not what design flaws are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    By the time Wildstar is out of beta, the controversy will be colder than a dead angel on ice.
    Much like the interest in the game after so many people were never given a chance to become invested before this faux pas.

    Look I still love the concept, love the personality, but I'm now on the outside looking in at a potential train wreck. I'm not going to personally invest in something that illogically puts itself at risk. Like I said before, it may be a runaway success and replicate WoW all over again. While this is the most unlikely thing in the MMO universe, it is always a possibility.

    PS - Being pithy is what forum distinction is all about. If you don't say what you mean and mean what you say, everyone will fill in their own meaning in lieu of your lack of expression.

    Be a bold butterfly and let words eloquently roll off your fingers. The worst case scenario is that people think you are a jerk. Thankfully it is a warm blanket of "can't cares" and misinterpretation...so you can just laugh and be a whimsical literary unicorn at your leisure.

    That's what I do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mel0ns View Post
    If your game is good, it will retain that amount, period.
    False, subjective, etc. Was this the crutch of your argument? Historically proven untrue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mel0ns View Post
    Feel free to google SWTOR budget and you will find plenty of sources.
    You might want to rethink what you assume to be factual sources. We've had this discussion for hundreds of pages on the appropriate forum. The number varies wildly. EA and Bioware have never stepped out and announced how much they spent. That is the only factual data you could have on the matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mel0ns View Post
    The 100 million for Wildstar is something i saw in this thread apparently, but it does not sound that bad considering the size of the studio compared to Bioware.
    Likewise, until NCSoft or Carbine announce a hard number you are just assuming numbers as facts. Pretty much nothing your talking about is based in truth. That's not a great place to spin an argument from unless you are a politician.
    BAD WOLF

  8. #7748
    I was really hoping Wildstar would be B2P like GW2 coming from NCsoft. Sadly it is not and i will not be picking it up until i see how easy it is to make gold and how much the Cread is going for after a few months of play.

  9. #7749
    Quote Originally Posted by Mel0ns View Post
    2. Feel free to google SWTOR budget and you will find plenty of sources. The 100 million for Wildstar is something i saw in this thread apparently, but it does not sound that bad considering the size of the studio compared to Bioware.



    Or, SWTOR sub numbers dropped way below 500 000 and they had to go F2P, forgot about that part?
    Claims about swtors budget range from 50 million to 600 million. Any hard facts? Nope.

    Also, would you like to prove that swtor dropped below 500,000? I would enjoy watching you try. At last count it was "just under 1 million, well over 500k"
    (Warframe) - Dragon & Typhoon-
    (Neverwinter) - Trickster Rogue & Guardian Fighter -

  10. #7750
    Quote Originally Posted by waddlez View Post
    Lets pretend Titan is subscription despite Blizzard saying it probably wont be.

    You don't think they would have 1million subs?
    I don't think this can be a viable discussion point. Because we don't have any concrete information of what Titan is or isn't, it's budget, platform(s) or what it will cost.

    For all intents and purposes to this conversation, Titan is imaginary. It's some game of unknown design being made under unknown conditions for an unknown audience using unknown gameplay mechanisms and unknown advertising & market positing to be released at some unknown time in the future.

    I mean. What kind of rational conclusion could one possibly draw as to the potential sub numbers of a game that is in such a state?

    We do have a firm grasp of the current market. Games in the current market and those releasing into the foreseeable future of the market. We can talk about that, speculate on, etc.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-08-20 at 02:45 PM.

  11. #7751
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeek Daniels View Post
    I was really hoping Wildstar would be B2P like GW2 coming from NCsoft. Sadly it is not and i will not be picking it up until i see how easy it is to make gold and how much the Cread is going for after a few months of play.
    But that's not even the issue.

    If currency is easy to get, then the price of CREDD would rise.
    If currency is easy to get, then they have to put in a ton of gold sinks to prevent hyper inflation. (thus making it hard)
    If currency is easy to get, then new players are at a disadvantage in purchasing anything off the auction house, never mind CREDD. (20 gold for a stack of peacebloom)

    CREDD will always have a real world value of 20 dollars. The in game currency's value will fluctuate relative to that.
    (Warframe) - Dragon & Typhoon-
    (Neverwinter) - Trickster Rogue & Guardian Fighter -

  12. #7752
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    False, subjective, etc. Was this the crutch of your argument? Historically proven untrue.

    You might want to rethink what you assume to be factual sources. We've had this discussion for hundreds of pages on the appropriate forum. The number varies wildly. EA and Bioware have never stepped out and announced how much they spent. That is the only factual data you could have on the matter.

    Likewise, until NCSoft or Carbine announce a hard number you are just assuming numbers as facts. Pretty much nothing your talking about is based in truth. That's not a great place to spin an argument from unless you are a politician.
    How is it historically proven untrue? Its not subjective at all, its fact. Not if its good enough for you, if its good enough for the majority, see the difference?

    I guess LA times just took their 200 million from thin air then. Im pretty sure they have a reliable source. But in the end the exact number does not matter, if it was 220 or 180 changes nothing. We all know that SWTORs budget is bugger than Wildstars, othervise you are just naive. And if SWTOR needed 500k subs, Wildstar will probably do with 400k, most likely lower. I remember reading way back that Wow projected a sub base of 400k before they launched, which would have been enough for them.

    You just like to pick apart what doesnt suit your opinion. Merely nothing people are talking about in this thread are facts, just because one, two or three games did not survive with a sub model doesnt mean another game cant. Or is that written in stone somewhere?

  13. #7753
    Dreadlord Vexies's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    lost somewhere in the corn fields of middle America
    Posts
    991
    CREDD will always have a real world value of 20 dollars. The in game currency's value will fluctuate relative to that.
    Yep not a fan. Its hardly a hybrid and a laughable option. Sure in the strictest sense but a super unimaginative and restrictive model. There are so many potential train wrecks that right now as we speak gold farmers are falling all over themselves salivating and waiting for more info so they can find ways to abuse it.

  14. #7754
    Quote Originally Posted by Mel0ns View Post
    I guess LA times just took their 200 million from thin air then. Im pretty sure they have a reliable source.
    ...

    It's the same source that said it was 100 million, 200 million, and 500 million. How can it be a reliable source if it keeps changing what it think it cost?
    (Warframe) - Dragon & Typhoon-
    (Neverwinter) - Trickster Rogue & Guardian Fighter -

  15. #7755
    Warchief Viscoe's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Bluebell Town
    Posts
    2,158
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post

    PS - Being pithy is what forum distinction is all about. If you don't say what you mean and mean what you say, everyone will fill in their own meaning in lieu of your lack of expression.

    Be a bold butterfly and let words eloquently roll off your fingers. The worst case scenario is that people think you are a jerk. Thankfully it is a warm blanket of "can't cares" and misinterpretation...so you can just laugh and be a whimsical literary unicorn at your leisure.

    That's what I do.
    Off topic: Kitty, that was some of the purplest prose I've seen on these forums. :P (Please don't take that as me being mean, more like a friendly jab in your side.)

    On topic: I have nothing to say about this, other than "I was hoping for a sub model with no cash shop." The cash shop drove me off of WoW. If they go F2P in a year and add a cash shop, then it's fine, whatever.
    Pokemon FC: 5112-3501-2407 Trainer: Oli FS: Viscoe - Farfetch'd/Hoothoot/Rufflet - Currently Full, DO NOT ADD
    Secondary 3DS: 3668-8923-2263 FS: Slider - Phanpy/Camerupt/Diggersby
    Avatar by Kyoht.

  16. #7756
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    I don't think you're getting what he meant by design flaws though. He doesn't mean a quest is broken, or that their are quests, but simply how they designed the game. Seeing how they view questing, leveling, progression, gear, professions, raiding etc.

    To some people there are things that immediately stand out that won't be rectified by a 'do over'. Changing a tenet of their design is basically redoing the whole game over. It's wildly out of the ordinary for something like this to happen this late in the game, which is why their admitted failure with questing is pretty monumental. That also will consume the majority of their time going forward. They simply cannot afford that level of design deviance.

    And to be fair, all they are changing is the presentation and completion credit of the exact same quest system...that's not really a shift in design so much as refinement of the same design of questing. You still pick up quests and complete them accordingly. So while I get what you're saying, what you're saying is just not what design flaws are.
    In which case the player in question wouldn't have been interested in the game to begin with, because it was not designed for them.

    I think the crux of the matter here is: are there enough potential players out there to sustain a game like Wildstar with this sort of business model?

    I don't have the answer to that. All I have is conjecture. I think there are, you probably disagree. But I think both of us agree it won't be an insanely popular game like World of Warcraft was. Games like WoW and Counter-Strike (back in its day) are freak occurrences. They're perfect storms, and the developers should know it by now. Anyone, fan or dev, who believes their game will be the next breakout phenomenon with millions of players is deluded. My prediction is that Wildstar will most likely hold on to between 100 and 300 thousand subscriptions for at least a year, and likely open some sort of trial system like World of Warcraft did after a while.

    As an aside, I really hope they'll have some sort of dynamic player allocation system worked out, because there will be low-population servers after a while. Most players naturally gravitate towards higher-population servers, after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Much like the interest in the game after so many people were never given a chance to become invested before this faux pas.

    Look I still love the concept, love the personality, but I'm now on the outside looking in at a potential train wreck. I'm not going to personally invest in something that illogically puts itself at risk. Like I said before, it may be a runaway success and replicate WoW all over again. While this is the most unlikely thing in the MMO universe, it is always a possibility.
    You can't really count on hype that could have been, now can you? :P

    Some people have been lost because of this, other people became interested. I don't think it's a net gain, but I also don't think it's a huge loss. The entire thing is a calculated risk, like any other decision the developers had to make (such as making mounts expensive enough to be used an an example in their release).


    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    PS - Being pithy is what forum distinction is all about. If you don't say what you mean and mean what you say, everyone will fill in their own meaning in lieu of your lack of expression.

    Be a bold butterfly and let words eloquently roll off your fingers. The worst case scenario is that people think you are a jerk. Thankfully it is a warm blanket of "can't cares" and misinterpretation...so you can just laugh and be a whimsical literary unicorn at your leisure.

    That's what I do.
    Wouldn't that being "verbose", though? I thought "pithy" meant "short and to the point". Ah, well. I like making long-ish posts either way. :P
    Nothing ever bothers Juular.

  17. #7757
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    I think the crux of the matter here is: are there enough potential players out there to sustain a game like Wildstar with this sort of business model?
    I think the best way to answer that is: "was there enough for any MMO to sustain this sort of business model launched in the past 9.5 years?"
    No. There was not.
    (Warframe) - Dragon & Typhoon-
    (Neverwinter) - Trickster Rogue & Guardian Fighter -

  18. #7758
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Bardarian View Post
    Claims about swtors budget range from 50 million to 600 million. Any hard facts? Nope.

    Also, would you like to prove that swtor dropped below 500,000? I would enjoy watching you try. At last count it was "just under 1 million, well over 500k"
    The LA Times is good enough for me, saying "nearly 200 million" As i said earlier, its still way above Wildstars, so the exact number does not matter.

    Why do i need to prove that? They lost 400k the first quarter, 400k the second(to under a million). How do you think their economists expected that to go over another half a year? Stop being so damn naive for once.

  19. #7759
    Deleted
    Yey, this thread has devolved into the standard MMOC garbage of bickering and throwing angry opinions at people.

    Will check back when people are prepared to approach the debate constructively.

  20. #7760
    Quote Originally Posted by Mel0ns View Post
    The LA Times is good enough for me, saying "nearly 200 million" As i said earlier, its still way above Wildstars, so the exact number does not matter.

    Why do i need to prove that? They lost 400k the first quarter, 400k the second(to under a million). How do you think their economists expected that to go over another half a year? Stop being so damn naive for once.
    They are quoting a guy who has no idea. Whose estimate ranges from 100 million to 500 million.

    Also, retention in mmos isn't linear. Stop being so damn naive for once.
    (Warframe) - Dragon & Typhoon-
    (Neverwinter) - Trickster Rogue & Guardian Fighter -

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •