1. #9121
    The Unstoppable Force Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jearle View Post
    This is the problem with the concept of solo end game content. People want awesome solo content but they want the rewards to be on par with larger group content which really can't happen because it would ruin the drive of people to form larger groups to go out and kill harder stuff and get better loot which is a main draw of these types of games.
    This isn't true, but it takes proper design to implement effectively. All people want is gear that makes them relatively stronger in the world. They don't necessarily want rewards from larger group content. The most obvious solution is to adjust the scaling so that the open world is much more available regardless of your gear, so that the upgrades you do receive are noticeably stronger.

    The less obvious and more technically challenging solution is to segregate gear effectivenes based on the content it comes from. I've detailed this in WoW threads, but essentially PvP, World, and Raid gear. They all share power budgets, with the exception that they have an additional rating based on the content. PvP Power/Defense, World Power/Defense, Raid Power/Defense.

    It makes it so that any gear from any content is feasible as entrance into the other, but you will never be remotely close to the power that someone focusing in that content can be. The problem is that this has a few caveats, most of which would just be raiders complaining that they aren't super leetsauce at farming/dailies, but nothing is stopping them from getting the World gear either.

    So in summary, people don't want raid gear...they just want the power against the world.
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  2. #9122
    seems like most people don't actually like to play the games then, they just want some sort of satisfaction from the games

  3. #9123
    The Unstoppable Force Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    seems like most people don't actually like to play the games then, they just want some sort of satisfaction from the games
    Part of what encompasses RPG gameplay is your character increasing in power. This doesn't have to be associated with gear, but it's evolved to become the go-to design philosophy. Even GW2, with mostly treadmill-less design, still uses gear as a goal. To expect the satisfaction from the game is to expect the result of the gameplay, which is inherent in the rules the game establishes.

    Not many games where you play as a character keeps your character the same for the duration of the game because it's boring. It doesn't matter what you have to do to change/improve your character, just that it happens. Metroid, Super Mario, etc all have distinct changes and power increases (with associated visuals) involved. Games have been training us to expect this, so it's understandable that's what people still want.

    I think it's just more noticeable in a game that 'never ends' because gear becomes the dominant focus, as opposed to finite games where beating it is the focus. You can blame the ideology of MMOs for that, but that's also part of why we love them.
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  4. #9124
    right kitty, I understand what you are saying. My statement was more in response to what Bovinity was saying, that a lot of people (not all) want the path of least resistance to the most powerful items that improve you character. So people just want the satisfaction of having their character as powerful as possible (whether through gear or whatever) without having a challenge associated with it.

  5. #9125
    Indeed Bovinity, those complaints about the Gauntlet irritated me as well. Some complaints were valid (i.e. the camera) but a lot of it was just people not wanting that challenge.

  6. #9126
    The Unstoppable Force Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    right kitty, I understand what you are saying. My statement was more in response to what Bovinity was saying, that a lot of people (not all) want the path of least resistance to the most powerful items that improve you character. So people just want the satisfaction of having their character as powerful as possible (whether through gear or whatever) without having a challenge associated with it.
    Oh I know, my point was that over all this time people have been trained to want the reward without caring how they get it. So naturally they want it as easily as possible. This is the exact reason how Facebook games, and any F2P game really, makes so much money from microtransactions.

    I was just detailing the psychological progression of how it applies to MMOs.
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  7. #9127
    going along that same train of thought of challenge for people, so today in GW2 they revamped one of the open world dragon events, apparently it is a lot more difficult now. Guess what is all over the forums? Complaints, whining, and other similar reactions to it.
    Last edited by Valeron; 2013-09-17 at 05:41 PM.

  8. #9128
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    The other problem is that it's pretty hard in the Traditional MMO setting to create solo content that's actually challenging at all and not just a veiled "daily grind for loot". And if you do, chances are it'll just make 95% of people furious because they don't WANT something challenging, they want Cookie Clicker that gives them gear.
    I don't think it's so much about the grind, but about how boring the grind is.

    For example, say there is a new expansion and non-raiders are expected to grind out valor gear and their upgrades in 5 mans for their progression. If Blizzard only provides 5 or so heroic 5 mans to grind valor in for the entire expansion, those non-raiders are probably going to be pretty bored. However, if Blizzard provides 2 new 5 mans every 2 months, even though it's the same grind for valor gear, it's not such a boring grind and their would probably be happy non-raiders.

    This is the problem with the concept of solo end game content. People want awesome solo content but they want the rewards to be on par with larger group content [...]
    I think this is just a generalization. I did a test on my rogue to see how much better normal mode raid gear is compared to LFR gear. In LFR gear, my rogue did around 1M DPS. In normal mode raid gear, my rogue did 2.4M DPS. That is not a trivial amount of performance increase. If non-raiders demanded gear on par with real raid gear, they wouldn't even bother with LFR, they would just quit the game.

  9. #9129
    Blizzard is also the poster child for insane gear inflation. Players don't need a 25% increase in stats every time they climb a rung of the ladder.

  10. #9130
    Deleted
    Would guess this is W*W...
    http://www.wildstar-online.com/uk/ne...o_at_earls.php

    It doesn't say "Wildstar Wednesday:" in the title though, one can hope at least

  11. #9131
    Quote Originally Posted by roflatorlunde View Post
    Would guess this is W*W...
    http://www.wildstar-online.com/uk/ne...o_at_earls.php

    It doesn't say "Wildstar Wednesday:" in the title though, one can hope at least
    They said on facebook that it is not WildStar Wednesday.

  12. #9132
    Ugh, just start CBT4 already so we can see what improvements you've made... ARRGHHH.
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  13. #9133
    The Unstoppable Force Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardarian View Post
    Ugh, just start CBT4 already so we can see what improvements you've made... ARRGHHH.
    I just can't see that happening so soon, but I'd like it to. I need some leaked info from the last two classes so that I can know what I'm going to play because there's no denying I'll buy this game even if I only play it for the first month. TL2 is the only game with an engineer that I felt was appropriate, so I'm really hoping it feels sorta like that.
    BAD WOLF

  14. #9134
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    I just can't see that happening so soon, but I'd like it to. I need some leaked info from the last two classes so that I can know what I'm going to play because there's no denying I'll buy this game even if I only play it for the first month. TL2 is the only game with an engineer that I felt was appropriate, so I'm really hoping it feels sorta like that.
    Yeah. I prefer those sorts of magitek engineers over those in TF2 or firefall.

    *I feel like a cross between TL2 engineers and rift engineers would be interesting.
    Last edited by Bardarian; 2013-09-18 at 04:47 PM.
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  16. #9136
    The Lightbringer Razael's Avatar
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    Hey guys. I'd like to talk to you about this cool feature we have called Housing..

  17. #9137
    Deleted
    gaffney said cb4 will begin mid oct

  18. #9138
    Warchief Viscoe's Avatar
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    Hopefully things will be looking up, then, by next month. (I mean the quest system will be better and whatever other grievances there were.)
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  19. #9139
    Quote Originally Posted by Viscoe View Post
    Hopefully things will be looking up, then, by next month. (I mean the quest system will be better and whatever other grievances there were.)
    I really hope so too. We need someone who is decent at compiling features with more modern game engine. Much higher chance of getting multiple forms of game play with it.
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  20. #9140
    The Lightbringer Razael's Avatar
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    I want to dedicate more time next CB. Need to dissect it.

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