[Megathread] Wildstar - Now F2P

[Gray_Matter]

In terms of preparing for a raid, rep and gem grinding is pointless. Group content like dungeons will at least give you an idea of what you should expect like erratic telegraphs as an example.

An idea of what to expect. I will go with that. Entering a dungeon will do that for you. You can probably exit after the first boss. You don't even have to complete a boss. The thing with completing a dungeon, whether its a bronze/silver/gold, is that you are reliant on your fellow players. Take a healer who doesn't know what healing is and you will fail. It's more a measure of your fellow players than it is a measure of you. If you go with 4 good people you could be completely useless and still walk away with everything you need.

The only way you are going to tell if someone can raid is to do a couple of raids with them. Watch how they learn (some people don't) and keep an eye one their performance. An attunement is much like the achievement requirements for pugs that are floating around in another popular MMO.

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Lets just put the rep grind to bed, most players will hit max rep in a day or two once they hit fifty from just playing ( if not the first day ) the rest is a much needed learning curve! But I'll agree it's long winded and needs to be made shorter.

It shouldn't exist at all. Forget about being made shorter. Now that's out of the way, lets talk about the world bosses. What do they teach you? 1k people all AFK auto attacking. We will get onto the other things once this one is out of the way.

[Deleted]

Oh your talking about contract day bosses, I think you'll find it very different on the rest

[Acidbaron]

Everything except dungeons doesn't help to "prepare" a person for raiding. Not in the slightest. There is no reason for them to be there. Nothing, zip, zero. Whether they are easy or not is irrelevant. Forcing people to do them is a form of artificial gating. They have to do that stuff before they can raid. That's a gate.

I even disagree with you on the dungeon side. Your "evidence" is just anecdotal evidence. Those people could have been useless because they were cooking supper while they were raiding. I am not sure if you have heard about the association between ice cream and suicide? The number of people that eat ice cream is directly proportional to the number of suicides. It turns out that there is no relation between ice cream and suicide. They are both related to the temperature.

Raiding is about learning tactics and team coordination. Nothing more except that you need a certain amount of gear. Unless the bosses have the same mechanics then there is no point in doing the dungeons. The only people that you could filter out through dungeons are those that don't have the necessary dexterity but they could just as easily get carried by someone else in dungeons. I can see though that we will probably agree to disagree here.

There would have been nothing wrong with slapping an achievement on the end of the attunement because that's all that it's good for. If raiding guilds chose to require that achievement that's up to them.

There is a reason for them to be there, the same reason you have quests around raids in WoW, story, lore.

Disagree with my evidence what you want but that's just nonsense a person that suddenly can't hold their own in a dungeon while accompanied by 4 capable players is suddenly going to excel in raids? That's never going to happen. Did you ever do a dungeon in Wildstar?

To get silver you need to be able to do 3 things in a dungeon setting:

1) Be able to bring enough damage.
2) Be able to avoid the mechanics that are slower and weaker than raids.
3) Be able to function in an interrupt rotation to increase TTK.

All elements you find in a dungeon you find in a raid to a greater difficulty, whoever argues that has never done both a dungeon and a raid. Argue all you want but all this tells me you didn't raid in wildstar did you? I did, i managed, made tactics, made setups and led raids.

You filter out the people who do not yet master the basics of the games to a good enough level. Also you bringing up items means you did not raid in wildstar at all, Items for a large part due to part itemization could be ignored because often your crafted pieces could be made better and this is something even the head raid and dungeon designer admitted to that items were a mess.

Getting carried also comes down from fight to fight, One bad apple on Kuralak and you were screwed. What is why this one was my second 'trial check'.


You are again speaking about things you do know nothing about and it's very apparent when you do especially to people like me who did do it all.

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In terms of preparing for a raid, rep and gem grinding is pointless. Group content like dungeons will at least give you an idea of what you should expect like erratic telegraphs as an example.

Those things are done by merely doing regular activities, it is not absurd to require people to spend some time to familiarize themselves with these things as there is a very noticeable increase in difficulty and in mmo's there's one thing that gets everyone on the same line. Time spend in game.

Also getting hooked up on that part means you haven't played recently and especially like Gray merely echoing complaints, since compared to other games their item grinds to get raid ready the reputation you need to gain is laughable.

[Kelimbror]

Don't bother Gray, you are mostly correct and some people will run you in circles like Wildstar raiding is so unfathomable you can't even begin to comprehend it. The attunement is artificial gating mostly without purpose. They could have simply shortened it to completing all of the dungeons and been done with it if the insisted on having it.

Dungeons are the only thing in the attunement chain that actually prepares and/or tests your ability to function in a raid. World bosses are perhaps a weirdo version of this knowledge, but they are also redundant in that aspect. Currency grinding, rep grinding, adventure medals, and all the other nonsense is just fences between you and trying out content.

It would actually make more sense to just have a lower difficulty raid as a requirement to get into the best quality raid. But hey, this is crazy talk around here.

[Coldkil]

To be honest, i was fine with the original attunement - i just set my heart into the "i'm not going to raid period" mood; though i would have liked to try it.

The game has failed bacause of bad decisions of devs focusing on wrong aspects of the game. You cannot make a niche game catering ot a lot of people. Now the raid niche is there and has its dedicated playerbase, and to keep the game stable Carbine needed to add something for casual players that have no will/no chance to raid, coupled with making raids actually more accessible.

Still, they needed the F2P jump to save the ship - the reputation damage is something you cannot heal easily, until you make some sensational (hint: not necessarily good) changes to the game, so people at least are willing to try it again.

The game core wasn't bad and isn't bad; they have just gone overcomplicated on stuff that didn't need that at all.

F2P is the occasion to make people look at the game again. If the interest is hih enough, maybe we will get a working environment, m aybe smaller updates with less stuff but atleast the game is alive.

Either they make Raids trivial or add random things to do outside of raids, the goal is the same: they want and need more people playing. How and if they will achieve that is unknown.

[Lysah]

the reputation damage is something you cannot heal easily, until you make some sensational (hint: not necessarily good) changes to the game, so people at least are willing to try it again.

Yeah, I think that's the biggest issue. First impressions are the most important thing.

[Acidbaron]

Don't bother Gray, you are mostly correct and some people will run you in circles like Wildstar raiding is so unfathomable you can't even begin to comprehend it. The attunement is artificial gating mostly without purpose. They could have simply shortened it to completing all of the dungeons and been done with it if the insisted on having it.

Dungeons are the only thing in the attunement chain that actually prepares and/or tests your ability to function in a raid. World bosses are perhaps a weirdo version of this knowledge, but they are also redundant in that aspect. Currency grinding, rep grinding, adventure medals, and all the other nonsense is just fences between you and trying out content.

It would actually make more sense to just have a lower difficulty raid as a requirement to get into the best quality raid. But hey, this is crazy talk around here.

You didn't even raid in wildstar, but it's not surprising you would disagree with me. I doubt you ever even managed a raid group and know what's required seeing your stance on gaming.

It's amusing that you would agree with a person that even argues the dungeon part something you do believe has an beneficial effect, i smell bias without reasoning

[Deleted]

Please enlighten me. Be sure to tell me about the parts that aren't tactics and team coordination.

The thing is that raids in WildStar are heavily based on individual performance rather than team organization. Most spells are single targeted and if you are unfamiliar with how the telegraphs look like you can wipe the whole raid in matter of seconds.

What part is dodging red things, tactic or team coordination?

WildStar raiding is not about killing the boss before enrage timer happens, it is all about surviving until the end. KNOWING that there is red doesn't help you DODGE it.

Now, I know you will just argue "But of course all fresh level 50 players know how to dodge red!", you couldn't be more wrong. Movement in this game is not something you learn in a day.

When it comes to "having proper gear" that basically means you already have played the game for a while to learn how it works in process of attaining this gear. Having good items and doing good dps with those items are 2 different things.

[Tekkommo]

KNOWING that there is red doesn't help you DODGE it.

It does actually, I'm sure most of the telegraphs have a set path, so all you have to do is learn its behaviour (even if it's random, it will most likely have a set behaviour you can learn). I put this under tactics.

Not entirely sure what you guys are arguing about anyway, as to get gear for raids, you have to play the game through dungeons, dailies and what not.

[Acidbaron]

It does actually, I'm sure most of the telegraphs have a set path, so all you have to do is learn its behaviour (even if it's random, it will most likely have a set behaviour you can learn). I put this under tactics.

Not entirely sure what you guys are arguing about anyway, as to get gear for raids, you have to play the game through dungeons, dailies and what not.

Not everywhere and going out that red is bad can cause a raid to wipe. Also often it is about knowing what you can and cannot soak. There's more to it than 'just dodge the red' but it is a key point in the encounter design even if it sounds very simple.

Some people believe that dungeon content does not prepare you for raids as it's supposedly completely different in every aspect. I never really got that argument or even the reasoning behind since it builds forth on the same concept.

[Kelimbror]

The thing is that raids in WildStar are heavily based on individual performance rather than team organization.

False. It requires the same concepts that wow and most raiding does. It has always been a balance. You should know that team organization and by extrapolation, tactics, are vital.

The rest of what you said is trying to paint Wildstar's pve content as inherently different than other pve content and it's just not true. Moving out of the fire is moving out of the fire. Knowing it is there means you can avoid it better. These are such 'no duh' statements I'm not sure how you could even begin to seriously argue otherwise.

Avoiding a red personal circle in wildstar is no different than making sure to click your feather and not crater on archimonde or to move out of the melee group when you get debuff xyz. Wildstar arguably gives you more tools to deal with these threats, so it has an increased level of importance. It's not fundamentally different though.

Perhaps it is simply designed better, I won't comment on something so subjective. But inherently different? No. Not at all.

[Deleted]

One of you have cleared all the raid content....the other has not, one of you had the first two raids on farm, the other probably never been in a Wildstar raid!...just saying

[Deleted]

Avoiding a red personal circle in wildstar is no different than making sure to click your feather and not crater on archimonde or to move out of the melee group when you get debuff xyz. Wildstar arguably gives you more tools to deal with these threats, so it has an increased level of importance. It's not fundamentally different though.

Perhaps it is simply designed better, I won't comment on something so subjective. But inherently different? No. Not at all.

My point is that there is a reason to learn the game before you walk in to the raids. It is a bit different thing to double jump / dash to dodge things instead holding down W and walking away of the fire.

Also, tell me more how hard it is to press 1 hotkey to use your feather.

[Kelimbror]

My point is that there is a reason to learn the game before you walk in to the raids. It is a bit different thing to double jump / dash to dodge things instead holding down W and walking away of the fire.

Also, tell me more how hard it is to press 1 hotkey to use your feather.

1) I agree with your rephrasing, which is not what you implied previously.

2) I don't think you understand the reference and relation between the examples I mentioned. They were regarding your insistence that Wildstar is somehow different and solely relies on personal performance with the obvious implication that other raiding isn't the same. It is.

You cratered and you killed people. Then you quickly wiped. Well, we could live through several craters because we weren't terrible...but same principle anyways.

[Deleted]

[Gray_Matter]

The thing is that raids in WildStar are heavily based on individual performance rather than team organization. Most spells are single targeted and if you are unfamiliar with how the telegraphs look like you can wipe the whole raid in matter of seconds.

What part is dodging red things, tactic or team coordination?

WildStar raiding is not about killing the boss before enrage timer happens, it is all about surviving until the end. KNOWING that there is red doesn't help you DODGE it.

Now, I know you will just argue "But of course all fresh level 50 players know how to dodge red!", you couldn't be more wrong. Movement in this game is not something you learn in a day.

When it comes to "having proper gear" that basically means you already have played the game for a while to learn how it works in process of attaining this gear. Having good items and doing good dps with those items are 2 different things.

Are you really trying to tell me that dodging has nothing to do with tactics? That's really clutching at straws. The tactic is to dodge out of X. It's an ability. The same as interrupting is an ability. It's just another way of avoiding s..t on the ground. Running out of range or DPS'ing the adds. Burning the boss. those are all tactics.

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There is a reason for them to be there, the same reason you have quests around raids in WoW, story, lore.

Great, thats a reason to do it, not a reason to put it as a gate in front of raiding.

Disagree with my evidence what you want but that's just nonsense a person that suddenly can't hold their own in a dungeon while accompanied by 4 capable players is suddenly going to excel in raids? That's never going to happen. Did you ever do a dungeon in Wildstar?

I said nothing of the sort. Please don't try and put words in my mouth.

I said that just because a player has completed the dungeons there is no guarantee that they can raid. A person could get carried by 4 other players and perform poorly in a raid. They have completed the attunement but they are useless. Another person might never have completed a dungeon and could be the best raider in the group.

All elements you find in a dungeon you find in a raid to a greater difficulty, whoever argues that has never done both a dungeon and a raid. Argue all you want but all this tells me you didn't raid in wildstar did you? I did, i managed, made tactics, made setups and led raids.

You keep going back to "I have done it and you haven't so bah". You discredit yourself by doing that. Instead of arguing the points, you are falling back by trying to discredit the person putting forward the points.

The principles are the same. Once a person has grasped the principles then it doesn't really matter. They could do that in one dungeon or even a boss, as I said. Would you force all players in WOW to complete Karazhan at level 70 before they do a raid max level in WOW? Why not, they must be able to learn something in the raid. The raids are different from each other. They have different tactics.

You filter out the people who do not yet master the basics of the games to a good enough level. Also you bringing up items means you did not raid in wildstar at all, Items for a large part due to part itemization could be ignored because often your crafted pieces could be made better and this is something even the head raid and dungeon designer admitted to that items were a mess.

I brought up items because you need a certain gear level to get past a boss. It doesn't matter if you get that gear from raiding, dungeons or crafting. Without it, you will not be able to complete the raids. Go in with level 10 gear and see how far you get.

You are welcome to filter out people who don't meet your criteria. That would be a guild or group requirement. That's up to the group. That's very different from the game restricting access.

You are again speaking about things you do know nothing about and it's very apparent when you do especially to people like me who did do it all.

[sarcasm alert]Wow, you are so awesome. I will not question your ability again. It's now apparent to me that I have failed miserably.[/sarcasm alert]

What you fail to grasp is that I am talking in principle. As I said previously, we can agree to disagree. You don't seem to be able to leave it at that so I will.

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One of you have cleared all the raid content....the other has not, one of you had the first two raids on farm, the other probably never been in a Wildstar raid!...just saying

What's that got to do with the price of eggs? We are talking in principle here.

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My point is that there is a reason to learn the game before you walk in to the raids. It is a bit different thing to double jump / dash to dodge things instead holding down W and walking away of the fire.

Agree 100%. People should know how to play the game before they raid. No complaints there. What I disagree with is requiring people to complete something like dungeons, which is more of an ability check of the group than the individual, before they can raid. Completing the dungeons is no guarantee that a person knows how to play and not completing them doesn't mean that they can't.

[Tekkommo]

Agree 100%. People should know how to play the game before they raid. No complaints there. What I disagree with is requiring people to complete something like dungeons, which is more of an ability check of the group than the individual, before they can raid. Completing the dungeons is no guarantee that a person knows how to play and not completing them doesn't mean that they can't.

How do you plan on getting geared for the raid if you can't complete dungeons? Not even WoW lets you do that.

[Gray_Matter]

How do you plan on getting geared for the raid if you can't complete dungeons? Not even WoW lets you do that.

A top tier player switching from WOW to WS might join a guild who boost him/her in the raid to get geared up. I could have a buddy join my raid in on an alt in crafting gear because we need the player and I know he is good.

There is nothing wrong with groups deciding who they will and won't bring on a raid. I would never pitch up to a raid without being suitably geared. In all likelihood that would mean that I have done all dungeons a number of times but that's just me. I am arguing against the gating in principle.

[Tekkommo]

A top tier player switching from WOW to WS might join a guild who boost him/her in the raid to get geared up. I could have a buddy join my raid in on an alt in crafting gear because we need the player and I know he is good.

There is nothing wrong with groups deciding who they will and won't bring on a raid. I would never pitch up to a raid without being suitably geared. In all likelihood that would mean that I have done all dungeons a number of times but that's just me. I am arguing against the gating in principle.

Well I think you should focus on other parts of the attunement. I agree with the dungeon part, the rep and the world bosses is what irks me.

[Acidbaron]

Yes by saying i did do it all and you haven't, i do discredit you. You may argue principles high and low all you like at the end of the day you have no touch with reality and are as you say merely arguing in general, ignoring the game specifics. I first discredit the point than the person. I'm not going to repeat myself in full in every single post sorry.

As i previously also said those who got carried and did badly in dungeons as they literally had to be carried did not last their first trial week, i literally stated that. However we have to go that the attunement is not there for people to get carried through, it isn't as it isn't lfr.

My standards are perhaps higher than what the game generally demands, however it still comes back to the same point if you struggle in doing dungeons smoothly you will struggle in raids. If you are in a raid i need to know that when i tell you, you are on interrupt duty nr 4. You are aware of your role and can fulfill that role, i intentionally took interrupting as that is a key element to make dungeons go smoothly.

You are merely arguing for the sake of it now. Also a top tier player getting boosted != your average player and can't be seen as the norm.
Your solution to instead of letting people do dungeons to train themselves appears to be them all being carried, what is simply not realistic alternative.


How much you like or don't like to hear this, your actual experience in the game is relevant to having an informed opinion on it. As with any subject.

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Well I think you should focus on other parts of the attunement. I agree with the dungeon part, the rep and the world bosses is what irks me.

You get reputation vouchers from contracts making a grind that took a day down to even much less than that. World bosses got reduced in number, sadly they still don't count before you are on that step as they did during beta.