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  1. #221
    Field Marshal The Big Dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4KhazModan View Post
    You're acting like it was hard to begin with. While threat has never really been an issue before, I'm afraid now it will just be faceroll. Maybe Blizzard doesn't get why people like tanking to begin with. It's more of a challenge than dps. Making it even easier is not the right way to recruit more 'good' tanks.
    Fixed, any noob DPS could go tank just for a quick que.
    Couldn't figure out how to put in a picture, I guess that's my Sig. Lazy.

  2. #222
    This is a very welcome change, in my opinion. I have a DK tank alt sitting at 85 who I've more or less given up on partly due to the fact that I can't run 5-mans without losing threat to good-geared DPS players.Also, it will feel a lot more rewarding playing DPS after this change simply because you can actually play to your full potential without having to worry about threat. There's nothing more frustrating than feeling that you can't do as much damage as possible simply because you have to watch your threat.

  3. #223
    The Lightbringer Seezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayremy View Post
    Why do I think this change is an Amazing Idea?

    Well for months, maybe treading years now I have been talking about this, so many times in pasts posts; so here is the reasoning:

    -Tanks don't worry about threat, why should they? A stupid simple transparent number that you obligatorily have to keep track off isn't fun. -What is fun for tanks then? Panning to see how the field of play is going for party members, pick up loose adds, focusing more on when to use mitigation spells (they are tanks, their job is to MITIGATE damage) because a great tank will tank minimal damage using his skill, not stats. Also if surviving isn't an issue worry just then about unloading and positioning.

    -Shifting the focus from threat being the challenge of tanking to mitigation being the main challenge seems way more appropriate for a role that is put in place to TAKE LESS damage than other players/roles in the groups. Instead of trying to perfect (sometimes illogical) rotations for threat (blood and thunder for warriors comes to mind), rotations can be made to be about mitigating large portions of damage.


    Ideally with random numbers and assumptions off my head thrown in I would so a skilled and good tank, that knows the best way to mitigate appropriately and skillfully, will probably mitigate 10-25% more damage than a typical tank. I hope for more of an impact than just 10-25% but I think more tweaking to base tank mitigation and all end game content might need to be made to match it unfortunately.
    Let's think about this for a second. "A stupid simple transparent numbeer that you obligatorily have to keep track of isn't fun." Oh yeah? Do you think keeping track of dots is fun? Not really. Does that mean dots should just stay on the target until it's dead? One thing doesn't make something "fun" or not.

  4. #224
    Hilarious how you terrible people are complaining.

  5. #225
    First of all it's nearly unheard in raids for tanks to lose aggro over DPS with threat boosts(MDs) and a wide array of threat dump abilities. Sure it's great that threat is less of an issue now but this is mostly aimed at either tanks that are less geared than the damage dealers and clearly more in the LFD where being a fresh tank hurts. Going in a HC with a tank in more blues than you can name ém and being a heroic lvl geared dpsers or with others of the same level of gear that constantly pull threat and visit the graveyard is never fun. Sure u can slow down, take it easy, go afk but again that's even less fun. So in the end it doesn't affect the raiding community and it just offers a bit of help for (fresh) tanks in LFD. Sounds good.

  6. #226
    The Lightbringer NatePsychotic's Avatar
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    This may increase the population of tanks, I welcome the change in hopes it gathers more tanks for quicker RDF times.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    First of all it's nearly unheard in raids for tanks to lose aggro over DPS with threat boosts(MDs) and a wide array of threat dump abilities. Sure it's great that threat is less of an issue now but this is mostly aimed at either tanks that are less geared than the damage dealers and clearly more in the LFD where being a fresh tank hurts. Going in a HC with a tank in more blues than you can name ém and being a heroic lvl geared dpsers or with others of the same level of gear that constantly pull threat and visit the graveyard is never fun. Sure u can slow down, take it easy, go afk but again that's even less fun. So in the end it doesn't affect the raiding community and it just offers a bit of help for (fresh) tanks in LFD. Sounds good.
    If you read GC's post carefully, you will see the long-term goal is to shift tanks' focus from threat management to survival management.

    This will actually affect raids more than random heroics, since Tanks' survivalbility is not really an issue in random heroics. And all tanks will need to work harder on their cooldowns and ressource management for survival, and have more controls over it, like today's DK tanking style.

    Threat level change is just the 1st step towards this long-term goal.

  8. #228
    Herald of the Titans Yakobro's Avatar
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    I read up to this post and just had to comment on some of the things attempted to be used to defend this change...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauldy View Post
    I think anyone who doesn't understand the role that threat has played is just being to elitist here or mainly raids with the luxury of misdirects. I just had this discussion with someone the other day, that the reason queue times are so high is because tanking right now is so hard. If you join a random dungeon in 359 gear and have a dps sitting there in 370+ gear ripping threat off you and calling you bad for not holding threat.
    My bear tank has ~360ilvl, I'm often asked to tank runs for a decent guild on my server where people are ~375-380 geared because they know I can keep up, hold threat (~35k tps without luck of the draw) with my 353 ZG staff and not do dumbass shit (most of the time ). Threat ATM in NOT impossible with geared dps so long as you all know where you stand.

    (anyone calling bs on the tps can go find out what a full agil geared druid tank can push when actually using more than 1 button/min, also have a less geared dk that I went with up until 4.2 before the druid so it isn't a question of "dps rotation as a tank")

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauldy View Post
    Aside from the abuse you have to worry about pulling the mobs gathering them up and you have 3 dps single targeting 3 different targets that your expected to hold threat on but there are also mechanics you have to deal with. As a warrior you charge only to have the arcane mage pop all cooldowns except mirror images (because it still has a minute left on the cooldown from two pulls ago) and now you play the taunt game as the mage rolls 60k dps and your only capable of maybe 40k tps but now your nerfed even more on threat generation as the mob runs away from you and is out of range of anything but your taunt. I can't tell you how many dungeons I join as a tank already at the last boss because the previous tank just gave up on the group.
    Then that's a tard dps problem, it's as much the dps' responsibility to watch their threat and introducing this change will cause even less hunters/rogues to know wtf their misdirect ability is compared to now.


    I just feel this is so braindead dps can go "MOAR NUMBARS NOWS!!" with even more of both tanks and dps not having a fucking clue wtf most of their abilities do.


    Managing my survival was never an issue with the DK, swapped because DK AoE threat is just plain bursty and uninvolved (30sec cd on the only actually useful ability).
    Last edited by Yakobro; 2011-08-17 at 12:54 AM.

  9. #229
    Tanking never really was hard to begin with. I remember a little hic up when the cata patch hit and TC was (is) a wet noodle that I had to adjust usage (love blood and thunder). +40k shield slam crits w/ T12 2p is going to be so OP for threat.
    Last edited by ReaverGX; 2011-08-17 at 02:10 AM.

  10. #230
    I can't wrap my head around the complaints...
    1. The game/tanking is easy. This makes it faceroll.
    A. Actually, content dictates difficulty. If you saw threat management as a challenge you had to "overcome", you're not the quality player you want us all to think you are.

    2. Devs are wasting their time on changes that affect of the population instead of , where changes are really needed.
    A. How did you get such inside information in an industry where techniques behind the design are generally kept under wraps? Oh, you don't know, you're just speculating? Cool.

    3. Fanboi
    A. Idiot-paying-for-a-product-he-doesn't-like-boi.

    Overall, this change helps the intended audience and does nothing to those outside of it. Hell, maybe they'll even be able to squeak a little more survival out of the change, even if it's just an extra GCD or two.

    There's no reason to complain about this. Threat is a minimal factor in ideal situations, and a strong point of frustration in others. Evening it out without impacting either side negatively is what you SHOULD be asking for in design changes.

    ---------- Post added 2011-08-17 at 01:16 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakobo15 View Post
    I read up to this post and just had to comment on some of the things attempted to be used to defend this change...



    My bear tank has ~360ilvl, I'm often asked to tank runs for a decent guild on my server where people are ~375-380 geared because they know I can keep up, hold threat (~35k tps without luck of the draw) with my 353 ZG staff and not do dumbass shit (most of the time ). Threat ATM in NOT impossible with geared dps so long as you all know where you stand.

    (anyone calling bs on the tps can go find out what a full agil geared druid tank can push when actually using more than 1 button/min, also have a less geared dk that I went with up until 4.2 before the druid so it isn't a question of "dps rotation as a tank")



    Then that's a tard dps problem, it's as much the dps' responsibility to watch their threat and introducing this change will cause even less hunters/rogues to know wtf their misdirect ability is compared to now.


    I just feel this is so braindead dps can go "MOAR NUMBARS NOWS!!" with even more of both tanks and dps not having a fucking clue wtf most of their abilities do.


    Managing my survival was never an issue with the DK, swapped because DK AoE threat is just plain bursty and uninvolved (30sec cd on the only actually useful ability).

    In no part of your long, drawn out "HEY LOOK AT ME I KNOW HOW TO PLAY" argument did you pose a single point against the change. The reason is because it won't affect you. So shhhhh.
    Last edited by Prag; 2011-08-17 at 01:17 AM.

  11. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calamari View Post
    You are contradicting yourself:





    Prot paladins and warriors have too much passive mitigation, that is why damage mitigation on them is easy, our active mitigation is pretty much limited to using -dmg cooldowns on hard hitting abilities.

    As Jayremy pointed out, the next step after the threat buff is to shift away from automated passive defenses of shield tanks and bears (passive shield block/absorb + avoidance), and into a DK like playstyle where in addition to managing the -%dmg cooldowns, you must also learn to synchronise your active defenses (self heals/absorb shields in case of DKs) with the bosses attacks - instead of running a dps rotation routine 24/7.
    I fail to see how i am contradicting myself, tanking firelands is EASY as hell, managing threat + mitigation via CD is no big issue, im stating the facts, if you cant handle threat + mitigation, stop tanking, you just dont have what it takes, done make threat easier so nobrainers can keep threat while tryine to figure out wheter to hit 1 2 3 or 4.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkley View Post
    I fail to see how i am contradicting myself, tanking firelands is EASY as hell, managing threat + mitigation via CD is no big issue, im stating the facts, if you cant handle threat + mitigation, stop tanking, you just dont have what it takes, done make threat easier so nobrainers can keep threat while tryine to figure out wheter to hit 1 2 3 or 4.
    Because if it is so easy to you then what is this challenge you speak of?

    Also why are you trying to impose a barrier for entry on other tanks if this wont affect you because since it is easy already, it must not be challenging to you, so neither way change or not wont affect you, only others. Why are you for blocking others from benefiting?


    Also this state is likely to be temporary, tanking will never be an "AFK" role with these changes, or maybe not even "easy".

    In fact tanking can be a lot like DPS, something you can perfect and maximize. What does all that extra threat do for you exactly? Nothing.

    What does milking every inch of extra mitigation based on smart use of skills (timing and rotation) do for you? It saves the healing needed for you, your survival (even w/o heals) and allows you to impact your entire raid by allow healing to spare more heals on themselves and DPS players.

    Regardless if it is easy or hard, there is a more meaningful way to progress your skills as a tank on the long term of things.

    Besides my point here, I think to need to read the whole blue post of their intentions, and you will see they already stated against what you are arguing, making it nearly pointless to argue, unless you are flat out going "Blizzard is lying" if you can't trust Blizzard here why would you trust them other times? Or even play the game if its the same devs making it that keep you here.
    Last edited by jayremy; 2011-08-17 at 01:36 AM.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkley View Post
    I fail to see how i am contradicting myself, tanking firelands is EASY as hell, managing threat + mitigation via CD is no big issue, im stating the facts, if you cant handle threat + mitigation, stop tanking, you just dont have what it takes, done make threat easier so nobrainers can keep threat while tryine to figure out wheter to hit 1 2 3 or 4.
    What is now being taken away in tps buttons needed to push, is later made up for with mitigation buttons to push. This is good, because tps behaves always the same, you land attack, you make threat, mob stays on you. There is little variance to be had to the TPS game either you keep agro or you don't and as you said with firelands vengeance it's a challenge not to keep threat on most fights.

    We've established that currently keeping threat is p1ss easy, it's also been repeatedly said in the blue post and in this thread that this is why they are moving away from trying to make threat a challenge, and instead make staying alive a challenge. This is good.
    Last edited by Calamari; 2011-08-17 at 01:48 AM.
    Ikelos@Argent Dawn EU

  14. #234
    I welcome this change. Its a p.i.t.a. in LFD groups when i pull 2-3 mobs in ZG/ZA and have my DPS pick one mob each and focus fire from the outset.

  15. #235
    the blue post talks about green geared tanks in a random hc.. which is irrelevant.. lets talk endgame.The old system of threat was tank gear-limited in terms of a dps pulling aggro away, as a geared tank can hold aggro better in FL.However the old tier raids of BWD etc, the bosses hit for less, meaning less vengeance, meaning less threat, making that FL-geared dps rip aggro easily. The solution? Make tanks choose hit/exp? How about keep the old system, and add an avoidance-based element on top, where avoiding an attack generates significant threat, to the level where dps cannot out-threat after a few dodge/parry. Sure you dont want tanks afk and do 0 dps, but what actual sense if you think about it, is in a tank hitting? Isnt a tank about taking being hit? hit/exp should be a dps and pvp stat!


    and about pvp (rated bgs), I guess it might actually be a buff? someone work it out, but I would think hitting a CC'd target (fear/rep etc) as tank spec will now reward instant Vengeance (read: dps boost), then when the target breaks CC and hit you, you will gain even more. This is as opposed to currently starting with no vengeance on a CC target until they break out.
    Last edited by rockdontroll; 2011-08-17 at 01:44 AM.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by ashblond View Post
    Making tanks more engaged with their survival can be very interesting. But on the other hand, what worries me is the class homogenization.

    If they change the pally/warrior/druid tanking model to dk's active CD management model, blizzard has to redesign a lot of abilities to match dk's similar abilities, for balance issue, and inevitably results class homogenization.

    I still prefer each class has their uniqueness and different tanking style. But balance and homogenization is really a dilema.
    It's not just the class homogenization that worries me in this new design philosophy they're working towards. A skill cap for tanks is fine.. but if you start designing boss encounters to require the tank to use a large arsenal of different mitigation cds, then the average unexperienced tank might be overwhelmed by the task of managing his survival by himself. DK tanking does require a fair ammount of practice.. otherwise they can be very squishy.
    Last edited by Calamari; 2011-08-17 at 01:47 AM.
    Ikelos@Argent Dawn EU

  17. #237
    Mechagnome Scratches's Avatar
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    Update(?): Seems the hotfix has just been deployed. Go now; tank, faceroll, and be merry! ¬_¬ (and whine in trade, for some of you..?)

  18. #238
    This is outstanding news. Threat generation has never been a proper representation of skill, but merely a pointless gear issue.Putting more weight of surviving in the hands of the player is definitely the right move. Death Knights, for me, have been the most enjoyable tanking class by far because of this. Watching your health bar to decide when to DS for the best benefit is far more engaging than Savage Defense, and really enjoyable.

  19. #239
    Brewmaster Wiyld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ognomad View Post
    Why do you guys cry so much! Waaaaaaaaaaaa! If you don't like the way blizz is handling the game quit.
    If we all left, then who would be here to carry you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gillern View Post
    "IM LOOKING AT A THING I DONT LIKE, I HAVE THE OPTION TO GO AWAY FROM IT BUT I WILL LOOK MORE AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THE THING I DONT LIKE BECAUSE I DONT LIKE IT, NO ONE IS FORCING ME TO SEARCH FOR THIS THING OR LOOK AT THIS THING OR REMAIN LOOKING AT THIS THING BUT I AM ANYWAY, ITS OFFENDS ME! ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME!!!"
    Troof

  20. #240
    The only time threat actually mattered was when playing with idiot players (so pretty much every DPS in LFD) or if you were severely outgeared. I've also heard it was problematic in progression fights, too. So, as a person who does tank, doesn't raid, and uses LFD pretty much exclusively, this will do very little for me. If you blow all your CDs before I get a Swipe off, you should die. (And, in fact, you're STILL going to die, even after this change, because I'm going to stand there and auto-attack while they swarm your dumbass, then I'll go back to tanking for the rest of the non-retards.) If you play like an idiot, you should be punished for it. STOP REWARDING BAD GAMEPLAY.

    Also, don't many DK tanks actively dislike having to use DS at the exclusion if nearly everything else? Having active mitigation is fine and dandy, but when it becomes a, "USE X ABILITY OR GET GIBBED" situation, is that really adding more thought to the process, or just making tanking that much more punishing in a more overt way? I hope Blizzard realizes that for every player they win back to the LFD (the ONLY they're doing this, mark my words) with this change, they're going to lose that many and more when they have this whole "DK-like revamp" of the other tank classes go live. Why? Because DK TANKING SUCKS. And this is coming from somebody who enjoys DK tanking's versatile and 'mobile' nature.

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