1. #1

    The Stupidity behind designing Seraphim, that was already behind Inquisition

    So: you spend 5 Holypower, fo a CHANCE to deal additional damage afterwards in a 8.5sec phase - all 30seconds.

    we all know inquisition, and that the fact it costs were that of one templars verdirct, but hardly producing dmg+ worth one tamplars verdict the following 30seconds.

    finally they removed that shit "math says its more dmg overall" button.

    now they introduce a talent, that is EVEN FAR MORE mathematical bonus ...

    you spend 5 holypower (which is kind of 1 and 2/3rds of a buffed (when you choose final verdict instead) templars verdict to boost a percentage of your current stats. even if that was a 100%buff of current stat, you wouldnt get that much dmg out of 8.5remaining seconds to do THAT MUCH burst. for it to be more dmg, it must be a very rough burst buff just to make its costs worth of those 2-2/3rd templars verdict ...


    remove that damn buffs ... rets have enough short time buffs (avenger, wrath and now again seraphim instaed of ancient ...) ret is so buff dependant already, we dont need any more short time burst buffs.
    in the end, the ret needs to activate all of them simultaneously to achieve what others achieve with one - just because ret HAS 3 of them ... merge everything into ONE or maybe two.

    sometime class design at blizz doesnt feel like design, just like a happens to be process ...

    if id design paladin/ret it would look like this:

    all burst cds get romoved. one replaces them for all classes: seraphim. (prot: dmg inc reduced by 20% ontop of the other effects - holy: enhancing healing and shielding done by 20% on top of the other effects - ret reducing ability cd by 20% on top of the current effects) that one needs 5 hopo, but doesnt consume them! has a 3minute cooldown, to do what it shall do in wod.
    in talenttree there its possible to skill ONE further, and that is "holy avenger" that one will be redisigned to just empower hp generation, no buffs to the dmg whatsoever. therefore it lasts 10sec, but only has a 1minute cooldown.

    thats all id like to see for paladin/ret "burst buffs" its sufficient and does all without combining 2 or more abilities to each other to get the full effect

    now those one ( or two if skilled) buffs should be designed around having just those ... not around combining them, casue some wont combine them!


    ability bloat on the one hand magically didnt stop blizz from implementing even MORE fuckin shorttime buffs for the paladin gameplay on the other hand.

  2. #2
    The Patient Monoroth's Avatar
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    Sep 2011
    You are missing some info, Seraphim lasts 15 sec still 30 sec CD. Seraphim is also off GCD which means you get 15 sec uptime on it and not 13.5 sec ( reduced by haste).
    Tuning and some mehanical changes still has to happen, until then I don't wanna judge this talent yet. As you can see by yourself 50% stat boost could be OP in end tier.

    Since Seraphim is intended to be used on CD it should favor DP, once you have Seraphim up pray for those DP procs to get more TV's out.
    To help with quick usage of Seraphim either reduce cost to 3 HP or lets Seraphim interact with DP.
    When DP procs you can use any Holy Power finisher ( DS/TV/WoG) and it acts as if 3 Holy Power was used. If you have 2 Holy Power stored and get DP proc it should count as having 5 Holy Power and it should allow us to use Seraphim ( Seraphim would ofc consume DP proc and 2 Holy Power).
    Other solution can be Seraphim doesn't consume Holy Power on usage.

    This talent has potential and it's downfalls. I guess it had more potential before when readiness was still in the game but for now we need to see what Blizz decides during tuning.

    True we do depend alot on CD's, but now in WoD we only have 1 CD unless you talent HA, our sustained is much better atleast for Single target. AoE is still changing and needs tuning/mehanic changes/interactions with other talents/spells/seals.LvL 100 tier buffs our sustained damage even further ES and FV being best choices atm.
    So compared to MoP we are less CD dependent, also depending on which talents you chose we have barely anything to track unless you pick ES, but even ES is easy to keep up, every ~18 sec you need to refresh seal buff ( still needs tuning and balancing vs other lvl 100 talents, confirmed by Celestalon)

  3. #3
    okay. still the way it is, when it consumes 5hp, its as stupid as inquisition ... need 5, dont consume - thats the first MANDATORY change to pick it. even if it gave 30000mio % statbonus i wouldnt pick it, because of its miserable mechanic, preventing me using HP for dmg. this talent only works in combination with holy avenger. otherwise its "bonus dmg output" totally DEPENDS on RNG proccs for exo and DP, or from holy avenger. so bullshit talent. it makes the gameplay "intentionally complex" by just adding random dependencies in the build. this talent is clearly DESIGNED as dependant from other rng and thats what i really learned hating in blizz paladin design ...

  4. #4
    Serephim seems so bad (gameplaywise not numbers) I'd even take Inquisition over it.

  5. #5
    Brewmaster Fredzilla's Avatar
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    May 2010
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    You clearly don't know what you're talking about if you think inq is "hardly producing" the damage of one TV that you'd otherwise spend the HP. With the amount of holy damage we do right now, just try dps'ing without it.

    That being said, seraphim is not an attractive talent, though as I've said many times before, the two abilities aren't related except in the vaguest sense of increasing your damage, and I wish people would stop using inq as a reference for seraphim. Seraphim definitely needs work, and it definitely had much more of a point when readiness was around, but as Monoroth said, we'll only have AW baseline in WoD and a 30 sec cd 15 sec buff is hardly "bursty" since it'd theoretically be up 50% of the time.
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  6. #6
    I fail to see how the OP feels like its a CHANCE at doing additional damage, not even looking at all the other stats, it gives 50% versatility, that is a 50% flat damage increase for 15 seconds. Or does it increase your existing versatility by 50%? I.e. if you have 10% it becomes 15% (which is still not a CHANCE at doing extra damage).

  7. #7
    I think Seraphim would be more interesting if you could store charges of it, kind of like the new Starsurge that boomkin are getting. If you could bank up, say, 3 seraphim to use for a bursty bursty phase, that might make it more interesting.
    I'll be interested to see how well it compares after this tuning pass the devs keep mentioning.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Thraene View Post
    I fail to see how the OP feels like its a CHANCE at doing additional damage, not even looking at all the other stats, it gives 50% versatility, that is a 50% flat damage increase for 15 seconds. Or does it increase your existing versatility by 50%? I.e. if you have 10% it becomes 15% (which is still not a CHANCE at doing extra damage).
    Second scenario. If you have 10%, it gives you 15%. Appears that the bonus is stats at time of cast as well, so if you cast when a trinket is proccing that give extra secondary stats then that value will be figured into bonus stats as well.

    I wish is was a flat buff though, that'd be OP.

  9. #9
    They're probably putting Seraphim in for people who really really liked Inquisition. I loathe Inquisition since you are a total gimp without it up. Sure the TV upgrade talent is 'boring', but it's better then Seraphim in my eyes just for one less thing to jungle.
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  10. #10
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Apr 2010
    Not nearly out of the way enough
    About the only time I see Seraphim as being useful is in any fight that involves limited windows of damage, like a flight phase or invulnerability mechanic, where you can still pool Holy Power and hit Serpahim as soon as you get back on the boss.

    That being said, it'll get out of hand as raid tiers release, since it's all based on your gear stats. So this is yet another talent that will require constant tuning just by virtue of the way it works.

  11. #11
    Seraphim is an ability which will become too strong for opponents to ignore as gear scales higher. Since it's on a 30 sec CD, it will probably force a trinket or defensive cooldown, which paves the way for more powerful cooldowns to be used.

    Ultimately a very useful talent.

  12. #12
    They're probably putting Seraphim in for people who really really liked Inquisition.
    Jesus Christ and Holy Marry.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Spraxle View Post
    They're probably putting Seraphim in for people who really really liked Inquisition. I loathe Inquisition since you are a total gimp without it up. Sure the TV upgrade talent is 'boring', but it's better then Seraphim in my eyes just for one less thing to jungle.
    I too hate the Inquisition Jungle

    Seraphim isn't really like Inquisition, at all.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by catablitz View Post
    Jesus Christ and Holy Marry.
    If you're going to curse, it's Mary.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Octa View Post
    Seraphim isn't really like Inquisition, at all.
    Correct, one is a maintenance buff. The other is a cd.

  15. #15
    There's 2 issues with Seraphim from my point of view.
    1) It feels VERY awkward to use, even off the GCD.
    2) I don't see how it will compete with FV and EmpSeals. I know someone is going to say "BUT PATCHWERK FITE HERP DERP," but there are very few fights when this talent will be optimal.
    > FV is good in almost any situation, acting as a HUGE damage increase on fights with AoE as well as being a good talent on fights that require movement between targets.
    > EmpSeals is, like FV, good in most situations, as you a straight 15% AP increase and a 30% AS increase, which means you will be throwing out exorcisms left and right. Hell, it even gives passive regeneration when needed.
    > Sepharim I can only see useful in straight up Patchwerk fights that have almost no movement.
    Deathknight's do it using disease, blood and the power of the unholy. Warlocks do it with dark demons by their side. Mages do it with summoned arcane powers. Druids do it using the forces of nature. Rogues do it through stealth, poison's, shadows and....from behind. Paladins do it by calling to the light for aid. Shamans do it with the help of the elements. Priests do it through the holy light.
    But warriors....
    Warriors just fucking do it.

  16. #16
    Seraphim is such a short cooldown that it feels like a mandatory maintenance buff to me. It seems like you'll just be alternating between ten seconds of high damage and twenty seconds of low to moderate damage. It manages to feel even worse than Inquisition, in my opinion, because you can't just apply and forget it for ~55 seconds. You have to sit there and micromanage its 15 seconds on and 15 seconds off; trying to line up your other cooldowns and boss mechanics around its availability to maximize it. I would much prefer a talent that just provided more sustained and even damage throughout the fight.

    Everything about it seems so awkward - from the 15 second duration that doesn't line up with our other cooldowns to consuming 5 Holy Power that could be spent on dealing damage. With the enormous buff to stats it provides, it makes me nervous that Ret damage will be balanced around the talent, and if that's the case, we'll be back to dealing damage in short bursts (which is what I assumed they were trying to avoid in WoD).

    I'm not excited about any of the level 100 talents, to be honest. Empowered Seals manages to be even more cumbersome than Seraphim. It's honestly so clunky it could have come straight from Vanilla. Final Verdict is so boring that it feels like it should be a level 60 talent. That said, I'll be choosing Final Verdict unless one of the other two is just too far ahead to pass up. Even then, I won't be happy about it.

  17. #17
    I would redesign it.
    Each Holy Power produced gives you a charge of Seraphim, stack up to 5. Then you can unleash it, off the gcd (or not, for balance purpose) for a cost of 3 HP. Like inquisition. This prevent (I believe) the instant burst intended (Cost of 5 HP), but without completly draining your HP bar. The player will be able to pool it and choose when to use it.

    Either that, or give Paladin a spell thats regen HP on CD or at the cost of life or the Impo/Bubble debuff for 1min.

  18. #18
    Elemental Lord Hyve's Avatar
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    May 2011
    Great Britain
    I haven't played a Paladin in a long time (Cataclysm), but I liked the idea that we used a variety of short-term buffs. It felt like that's how Paladins are meant to be. Of course, game play is important so they should consider the mathematical implications of these designs, but short term buffs that improve the Paladins capability just feels right to me.

  19. #19
    The Lightbringer TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Jun 2010
    Texas(I wish it were CO)
    The only upside to Seraphim: It isn't Empowered Seals. I'm gonna be sticking with Final Verdict simply because flat damage increase is more exciting than the other options...
    Last edited by TEHPALLYTANK; Today at 01:29 PM.
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