PS. I already use SoI at times, not up all the time mind you, but I seal dance regularly. It's very easy to land a judge with SoI and switch back to SoT to keep your 5 stacks up. I just do it when I'm low on mana from pop'n stuff like a consecrate or holy radiance. Don't really use it for the heal to be honest.
No change. Pushing out the most dps is still my goal. Healing is really easy in Cata so I really see no reason to make healers have an easier job.
Cata tanking has been made so easy yet they still didn't fix the real issue Hit/Exp being ignored.
In a sort it trivialized good tanks from bad, however the good will only show when it's time to react quickly to things on the move. The change shouldn't have changed the overall threat modifier from x3 to x5. The vengeance change would've been plenty.
But it became better than it was. Finally I don't have to use threat-reducing abilities to stay alive at fight start.
so whats this mean with hit/exp?
are we still stacking as much mastery as possible and ignoring hit/exp? or we going to start to balance the 2/3? I know it sounds like a noob question, but im just curious at the moment.
everyone saying 'threat has never been an issue in raiding' should realize that thats obvious.... VERY obvious. what this change does is make it so when a 378 geared dps joins a random heroic and the tank is like 350 geared.... basically making it so really undergeared (or bad) tanks dont completely gimp an entire run based on their threat gen.
Ha, I love the people that included Eternal Glory in their 'healing/survivability' builds. Eternal Glory is a threat talent, and a terrible one at that. It should be skipped by all prots.
I'd boot you out of my group if your damage was as low as you make it sound. People with your attitude are baffling.
---------- Post added 2011-08-19 at 03:22 PM ----------
I've responded to the change by not switching into my threat gear for anything except alysrazor.
in a word. "ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZ"
Which would mean something *IF* there wasn't a 20 second cooldown on WoG. Even with 10 less expertise, the chances of not having 3HP for WoG if you use it for WoG exclusively (outside of the initial pull. Still gotta do that!) is pretty low.switching to that seal = 10 expertise lost = less holy power from crusader strike = less wog's the mini heal from seal is almost useles as it's 1%~ of your hp if it procs which it doesn't much at all expecialy as your geting parried and dodged a lot more without the 10 expertise that truth gives.
Pre-pot + Nuke CD's + Heroism - Tricks/MD = Threat is an issue. Technically, under these circumstances, still is, just less so. The threat change was mainly for tanks in RDF who can't hold threat either because they outgear the instance too severely to build vengeance, or the DPS outgear them so badly they would never be able to hold threat. If your DPS in a raid were threat capped, either you're doing something VERY wrong as a tank, or they are doing something VERY right and I would like your DPS in my raid...Threat was never an issue, increasing threat, still not an issue changes nothing.
Umm. Yes? Silly question. "Who cares about giving food to starving kids in Africa? Starving kids in Africa?" is asking basically the same thing.The only change this makes is DPS now needs to wait a little bit less before going crazy on the boss. Who cares? 5 man puggers?
Congratulations. Changes to threat not meant to affect you didn't affect you. Would you like a cookie?Yeah, on a raid i was at 3000% over the next person instead of 2000% WOW. GAME SHATTERING CHANGES.
I think it's great. You mean I no longer need 3 hunters in a raid solely doing MD on me and no longer need to stack Salv on all the DPS? WIN.Nah, someone needs to get it through to blizz that
1) vengeance sucks.
Which they acknowledged. Now you're just whining.2) hit/expertise sucks for tanks who want to gear for being better surviving tanks
Which is why the changes to threat weren't for Raid tanks. Considering they want threat to be a non-issue, a baseline and fairly easy pass/fail mechanic, this means they did it right.3) no raid tank has threat issues. none.
Sure does. Which is why they fixed it so folks who can't maintain vengeance can still maintain threat.4) having vengeance be some magical number based on incoming damage sucks
I somewhat agree that it's pretty stupid that a DK is based around self-healing, not a Paladin. But Paladins have been a block tank since they've been tanks. DK's, being a NOT block tank needed some sort of mechanic. As for the second part, they wanted to marginalize threat as an issue. Active mitigation means you can't pull the boss then go AFK.5) to play different "styles" of tanks, you have to roll different classes. Want to fly around like harry potter? roll a warrior. Want to spam self healing? DK. (somehow it is DK and not paladin? DERRRP.) So giving everyone reactive mitigation is just a way to press a button to do something over it just being there naturally. WOW FUN.
As a raider, there is no change, except you're less likely to lose aggro on the initial pull. Nothing more, nothing less.This topic isn't really about the threat changes themselves, frott .. there're a ton of threads already up in other forums about that .. it's about how best to take advantage of the threat changes to maximise the efficiency of our prot Paladins.
Or you're tanking Alysrazorif you're at the top of the dps meters on raids, i don't know what your dps is doing.
Which was doable in any realistic tank build anyways. Survivability is most important, unless your healers are snoozing because they have nothing to do, but you're hitting enrage timers.Threat wasn't previously an issue as I was specced/glyphed to maximise my threat output so that I could stay above those 30k+ frost DKS/fury warriors while ignoring hit/expertise on my gear in favour of mitigation/avoidance stats.
Considering they *PLAN* on making tanks worry more about managing survival than threat, not really. Again, this change was pushed to help tanks that can't hold threat NOW because they have 25-30k DPS in their 5-mans ripping threat off them. Hell, wasn't uncommon to see me push 2-3k vengeance in 5 mans, so it helps overgeared tanks in 5 mans as well. The fact that overgeared tanks no longer have to take their pants off makes this a kiddie game? Well, I for one look forward to never seeing a gnome warrior without pants tanking my instancesThey made WoW a kiddie game with this change.
Tell me about it. Any raid tank complaining about this is just whining. Either you were a very bad tank and don't know how to play, or your DPS were gods. Those are the only reasons this change affects a raid tank.I don't get that attitude. Holding threat was never a hard part of tanking.
Yea. Because the only difference between a good tank and a bad tank was how much aggro they generate, right? There is only one measure of a tanks effectiveness in raids after all, and the ability to mitigate damage, use cooldowns at the right moment, move the boss where you need to, reset stacks on shannox, avoid bad stuff, ect, all plays no role in how good a tank is. Right? No sir, you're just advancing a line of thought that has no merit. This threat change changes nothing for raiders. This threat change was not MEANT to change anything for raiders. The "problems" you speak of aren't something to fix in a hot-fix. It's a redesign. You're upset that a hotfix to make 5 mans suck less isn't a complete redesign of tanking? You're bitching at the guy doing an oil change on your car for not including a free engine swap. Pretty much everything you bring up in this thread has no merit in this discussion. It's a seperate discussion.Since you don't understand let alone make any sense I'll explain it to you bluntly, They made the tanking so easy any idiot can do it without trying.
The only fight where I've currently had any issues threat-wise was Ryolith, only because tanking sparks vs Arc Nage and frags vs DKs can be tough if your initial 1-2 abilities miss. This change helps with that, and I guess with trash. Otherwise threat was never an issue before and it isn't an issue now, so this changes nothing. I guess it will help a little with DPS throttling for the first ~15 sec on Baelroc and Domo, but that was already easy enough with proper taunts.
Where this change will make a difference is 5 mans, those will be a lot easier to AoE tank even with 3 DPSers all single targeting separate mobs. Basically you can snooze through any run now.
I personally have no plans to change my current spec. All my talents are rather useful and while word of glory is nice, the extra talents wont make a terribly big difference whether you live or die. Doing extra DPS on some fights can make or break them (especially when you have seen some sub 100k wipes in your time). Paladin tanking won't change much unless they decide to remake it again.