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  1. #1

    [Prot] How are you responding to the threat change?

    So, with the recent hotfix making threat a non-issue, are you planning on changing your playstyle?

    I've been considering switching to Seal of Insight and using a spec oriented around survivability; I figure at this point I can either contribute (a little) to DPS, or contribute (a little) to my own survivability via Word of Glory and the associated talents; like so.

    What're the rest of you thinking?

  2. #2
    Field Marshal
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    I will save the tanking specc I am using now.
    Also you might first want to check your
    threatgeneration before changing anything.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Myridia View Post
    I will save the tanking specc I am using now.
    Also you might first want to check your
    threatgeneration before changing anything.
    I tanked FL yesterday; the threat generation in my current spec was pretty ridiculous. I certainly can't see myself having any threat problems whatsoever with the spec/methodology above.

  4. #4
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    Are you always close to dying ?
    If you are, go for it.
    Otherwise I would remain in my specc to do more DPS, especially to kill Alysrazor.

  5. #5
    Fluffy Kitten
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    I usually carry a survivability spec and a dps/threat spec. I also carry a set that allows me to easily swap to a +hit set for Alysrazor.

    I'll probably end up using the WoGing spec more considering the fact that I was miles ahead on threat on almost every encounter after the change. However, I'm going to wait and let the leading theorycrafters weigh in on the spec changes before I do anything drastic.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Grungit View Post
    I've been considering switching to Seal of Insight and using a spec oriented around survivability; I figure at this point I can either contribute (a little) to DPS, or contribute (a little) to my own survivability via Word of Glory and the associated talents; like so.

    What're the rest of you thinking?
    switching to that seal = 10 expertise lost = less holy power from crusader strike = less wog's the mini heal from seal is almost useles as it's 1%~ of your hp if it procs which it doesn't much at all expecialy as your geting parried and dodged a lot more without the 10 expertise that truth gives.

    also taking talents that buff a spell you can only cast once every 20 seconds seems not great. it's beter if the boss dies 1% faster than you doing 5% of the healing you would need to kil the boss as, if he dies 1% faster your healers had to heal the whole raid 1% less which is easily more than the 5% more they would ahve had to do to you. especialy as even without them your stil doing some self healing.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viglante View Post
    switching to that seal = 10 expertise lost = less holy power from crusader strike = less wog's the mini heal from seal is almost useles as it's 1%~ of your hp if it procs which it doesn't much at all expecialy as your geting parried and dodged a lot more without the 10 expertise that truth gives.

    also taking talents that buff a spell you can only cast once every 20 seconds seems not great. it's beter if the boss dies 1% faster than you doing 5% of the healing you would need to kil the boss as, if he dies 1% faster your healers had to heal the whole raid 1% less which is easily more than the 5% more they would ahve had to do to you. especialy as even without them your stil doing some self healing.
    Didn't consider this, too.
    SoT should still be mandatory.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Grungit View Post
    So, with the recent hotfix making threat a non-issue

    Wait, what?

    Threat was an issue?

    For me, this hotfix is about as useful as a hotfix that would make my lay on hands heal for 500% of my HP when used on myself instead of only 100% of my hp.

    Threat was never an issue, increasing threat, still not an issue changes nothing.


    @ the spec, ye, really. What did you change from your previous spec?

    You have 2 points on judgement of the just which is completely wasted talent points. Put them in the Seals of the Pure instead ( Even though its a crappy gain, crappy gain > nothing.

    I imagine the "groundbreaking" change you made was putting 2 points on GBTL.

    Really, at this stage, you have 3 talent points left.

    Your options are.

    Reckoning
    Improved Hammer of Justice
    Hallowed Ground
    Guarded By The Light.
    Judgement of the Just

    IHoJ is pretty much useless.
    HG is pretty much useless
    Judgement of the Just is completely useless.
    1/2 Guarded by the light is mandatory.

    That leaves you with 2 points to spend in either 2/2 reckoning or 2/2 Guarded by the light. ( While having only 1/2 in the other ).

    So really, the only question is, you want 2/2 reck or 2/2 GbtL which really, is just so small differences it does not even matter.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2011-08-18 at 02:44 PM.

  9. #9
    Just a couple of points of consideration: SoI's proc rate is 15ppm, a 2.6s weapon will swing 23 times in a minute.

    In theory, that's a hit rate of ~60% necessary to not waste procs. Yes, it's a small heal, but they add up.

    Regarding HP generation through increased dodge/parry rates, with WoG on a 20s cooldown and with no timing necessary (due to the overheal absorb granted by GbtL) it should not be problematic to get 3hp within 20 seconds in order to keep WoG on cooldown.

    Most tank deaths are caused by spike damage; something that a survival spec would help mitigate. Healer mana may also be benefited from this kind of spec, since a 102.4% capped SoI/WoGadin should be the most stable tank in the game in terms of incoming damage, allowing healers to use their more efficient abilties rather than spam fast and mana-intensive ones.

    What I'm not sure about is how badly the surivival spec will affect DPS. A few K wouldn't be a big loss. Alys'razor isn't much of an issue, I'm usually taking out my hatchling with about 20 seconds to spare.

  10. #10
    this threat changes absolutely nothing on raids and only serves to make 5 mans easier.

    the bigger issue is vengeance on raids.

    tank 1 gets max vengeance, tank 2 taunts and immediately loses threat to tank 1 because of their stupid attack power gap.


    i already raid with ZERO hit and ZERO expertise. So how is increasing my threat from 300 to 500% going to matter? The only change this makes is DPS now needs to wait a little bit less before going crazy on the boss. Who cares? 5 man puggers?



    And the "reactive mitigation" is stupid as hell as well. Wow, we had to put holy shield on a macro because the cooldown is so short you never realistically "plan" for it to be up anyway.

    All of the buttons I currently press while tanking is for threat/dps, and none of them are for survivability except for the longer cooldowns. so we get a stupid priority where every ability is there for threat.



    Yeah, on a raid i was at 3000% over the next person instead of 2000% WOW. GAME SHATTERING CHANGES.


    the only fight where threat matters on normal mode is rhyolith adds. And they beeline to healers anyway since paladin's AE threat is garbage, so you just stack on the healers when adds come and pull threat that way. Tanking on that fight is a joke so I just wear pretty much a hit/exp capped set since we do that fight either before or after alysrazor. whoopy.


    Nah, someone needs to get it through to blizz that
    1) vengeance sucks.
    2) hit/expertise sucks for tanks who want to gear for being better surviving tanks
    3) no raid tank has threat issues. none.
    4) having vengeance be some magical number based on incoming damage sucks
    5) to play different "styles" of tanks, you have to roll different classes. Want to fly around like harry potter? roll a warrior. Want to spam self healing? DK. (somehow it is DK and not paladin? DERRRP.) So giving everyone reactive mitigation is just a way to press a button to do something over it just being there naturally. WOW FUN.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    @ the spec, ye, really. What did you change from your previous spec?
    Nope, threat wasn't an issue (pre-hotfix) with my current spec. I like to let my DPS go prepot-nuts a the pull, so I'm specced for damage/threat.

    Now, it's even less of an issue .. which opens up the possibility for a more survival oriented spec while still being confident of maintaining said threat.

    The proposed spec has changed quite a bit from my current spec, I'll link them both here for easy comparison:

    Proposed Survivability Spec - Current Spec

    Judgement of the Just is non-negotiable for me; our raid group is a bit on the odd side. We don't always have someone else available to apply the 20% attack speed debuff.

    ---------- Post added 2011-08-18 at 04:23 PM ----------

    This topic isn't really about the threat changes themselves, frott .. there're a ton of threads already up in other forums about that .. it's about how best to take advantage of the threat changes to maximise the efficiency of our prot Paladins.

    But thanks for stopping by, I guess. :P
    Last edited by Grungit; 2011-08-18 at 03:23 PM.

  12. #12
    Threat has never been an issue in raiding, tho its nice to see my name back up towards the top of the dps meters again. The only thing that I see that helps at all would be in 5 man randoms when dps'rs like to go all out on a sep target and I sometimes loose them. Havent tried in 5 mans yet, but we will see.. I for one sticking with the dps/threat, Shit dies faster, our healers are good at what they do, well atleast when they dont get a random disconnect lol

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Grungit View Post
    Just a couple of points of consideration: SoI's proc rate is 15ppm, a 2.6s weapon will swing 23 times in a minute.

    In theory, that's a hit rate of ~60% necessary to not waste procs. Yes, it's a small heal, but they add up.

    Regarding HP generation through increased dodge/parry rates, with WoG on a 20s cooldown and with no timing necessary (due to the overheal absorb granted by GbtL) it should not be problematic to get 3hp within 20 seconds in order to keep WoG on cooldown.

    Most tank deaths are caused by spike damage; something that a survival spec would help mitigate. Healer mana may also be benefited from this kind of spec, since a 102.4% capped SoI/WoGadin should be the most stable tank in the game in terms of incoming damage, allowing healers to use their more efficient abilties rather than spam fast and mana-intensive ones.

    What I'm not sure about is how badly the surivival spec will affect DPS. A few K wouldn't be a big loss. Alys'razor isn't much of an issue, I'm usually taking out my hatchling with about 20 seconds to spare.
    Quick question: why would you not be using WoG / GBTL if it were actually any good at all? It isn't, and neither was threat.

    a 102.4 capped doesn't need SOI or WoG, it doesn't "allow healers to use more efficient abilities" since your healers are already as efficient as they need to be without it.

    SOI is like 3k heals/sec... WoG is equally pointless. GBTL is a waste of points since the odds you're actually overhealing with WOG is laughable.

    It isn't "problematic" to keep wog on cooldown, you get 6+ holy power before its off of cooldown, what's problematic is that it's pointless either way.



    the bottom line is that threat doesn't change anything, you obviously are the "best mitigating/healing" tank if you use WOG on cooldown with SOI after you have 50000% threat over the next person 20 seconds into the fight. The only fights that have any variation for the tank is alyz and rhyo where you can basically wear a full ret set and do fine.

    ---------- Post added 2011-08-18 at 03:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Allerik View Post
    Threat has never been an issue in raiding, tho its nice to see my name back up towards the top of the dps meters again. The only thing that I see that helps at all would be in 5 man randoms when dps'rs like to go all out on a sep target and I sometimes loose them. Havent tried in 5 mans yet, but we will see.. I for one sticking with the dps/threat, Shit dies faster, our healers are good at what they do, well atleast when they dont get a random disconnect lol

    if you're at the top of the dps meters on raids, i don't know what your dps is doing.

    ---------- Post added 2011-08-18 at 03:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Grungit View Post

    [/COLOR]This topic isn't really about the threat changes themselves, frott .. there're a ton of threads already up in other forums about that .. it's about how best to take advantage of the threat changes to maximise the efficiency of our prot Paladins.

    But thanks for stopping by, I guess. :P
    Nothing changed. So how can we "maximize the efficiency" when we are equally as efficient as before? All this does is potentially shave off a few seconds before we go from SOT to SOI.

    This was entirely to, once again, try to pump tanks into pugging heroics. Since vengeance sucks in 5 mans and AE dps > AE tanking except for those tanks with good auto AE. They could have fixed this a ton of ways (how about inquisition or a talent to AE spread SOT procs? or is that "too similar" to the efficient tanks?) so yes, sorry for intruding on the thread about how paladins will continue to do exactly the same thing except the dps only has to wait 10 seconds before attacking instead of 12.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by frott View Post
    Quick question: why would you not be using WoG / GBTL if it were actually any good at all? It isn't, and neither was threat.

    a 102.4 capped doesn't need SOI or WoG, it doesn't "allow healers to use more efficient abilities" since your healers are already as efficient as they need to be without it.

    SOI is like 3k heals/sec... WoG is equally pointless. GBTL is a waste of points since the odds you're actually overhealing with WOG is laughable.

    It isn't "problematic" to keep wog on cooldown, you get 6+ holy power before its off of cooldown, what's problematic is that it's pointless either way.

    the bottom line is that threat doesn't change anything, you obviously are the "best mitigating/healing" tank if you use WOG on cooldown with SOI after you have 50000% threat over the next person 20 seconds into the fight. The only fights that have any variation for the tank is alyz and rhyo where you can basically wear a full ret set and do fine
    Not quite sure what your point is here; speccing for WoG/SoI is pointless, as is speccing for threat/damage, so spec for threat/damage instead of WoG/SoI? .. In the end, it seems to be a straight choice of what we want to contribute to most.

    Do I want to help my healers out with a WoG/SoI build, or contribute to the damage meters with a damage build. Thus far, I've always gone damage but with the recent design switch towards active mitigation, I'm considering whether the greater benefit to my raid group would be to go for WoG/SoI instead.

    We're starting to 2-heal a lot of content now, so imo it might be the better option.

  15. #15
    How am I responding?

    I put on righteous fury when I dps and make fun of the tank for losing aggro!

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by frott View Post
    Nothing changed. So how can we "maximize the efficiency" when we are equally as efficient as before?
    Something I should have perhaps made clear at the beginning of this topic; I'm a raider .. I'm considering this shift in methodology from the perspective of a raid tank, so 5-mans isn't really relevant to me as I don't (currently) run them.

    Threat wasn't previously an issue as I was specced/glyphed to maximise my threat output so that I could stay above those 30k+ frost DKS/fury warriors while ignoring hit/expertise on my gear in favour of mitigation/avoidance stats.

    The change to threat means that I can now go one step further than this and drop some damage/threat talents for ones that affect self-healing.

    ---------- Post added 2011-08-18 at 04:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Deal View Post
    How am I responding?

    I put on righteous fury when I dps and make fun of the tank for losing aggro!
    Hah, good point .. I'll be watching out for that when running with ret paladins now!

  17. #17
    i already did change my playstyle, because of these changes i canceled my subscription

  18. #18
    The Lightbringer MonsieuRoberts's Avatar
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    I'm going to play Prot again! Not that threat was a real issue, but I just hit buttons and it didn't end well.

    Now I can hit buttons and produce good results. 1,2,1,2,1,3 x 1321402342342

  19. #19
    They made WoW a kiddie game with this change. I for one, have decided to take a break until Blizzard moves back to the greener pastures. My guild is not happy with me, we were supposed to do Baleroc attempts tonight so we could finally get a second boss down. NOT ANYMORE haha.

  20. #20
    I love it, previously I was barely able to kill the birds on Heroic Alysrazor but now with the Vengeance quick stack it's a joke.

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