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  1. #1

    DPS Issue - Arms

    Hello fellow warriors,


    currently I have an issue with my dps, which bugs me alot.

    I started playing WoD as a Protection Warrior and I use this spec as often as I can, however when doing random heroics with my guildmates I'm sometimes "forced" to switch to dps, because actually we have too many tanks (funny isn't it?).

    I did about 11-13k dps in the first heroics, with new gear my dps increased and now I've dropped down to 8-10k in single target fights with roughly the same duration and movement required.
    The first few heroics went very well but with every new heroic done and heroic item gained I felt like some dps on my part went missing.
    And this is what I can't figure out, since I gathered new gear and improved my item level.

    With the help of askmr.robot I'm at the following stat values;
    (iLvl: 631)
    str: 3401,
    crit: 14,48%,
    haste: 3,67%,
    mastery: 37,20%,
    multistrike: 8,05%,
    versatility: 4,30%,
    while following the priority list from askmr.robot = Str > Crit >= Vers > Multi > Mastery > Haste. (This feels wrong, haste must be better, am I right?).
    Other guides say haste has the top priority until I reach 5% unbuffed and then crit > mastery > else or mastery > crit > else. I'm confused right now.

    If there are other/better stat priorities please feel free to tell me them. Actual numbers so I could create a custom build at askmr.robot would be welcomed.
    I have almost two bags of heroic gear with a lot of pieces of the same slot like boots with mastery/haste or crit/haste [...].

    With a little help I think I could eliminate the "bad ones" and improve my overall performance.

    Thanks for reading.

    PS: I can't post any links to my armory which would be worthles anyways, as my character is saved with prot gear there.

  2. #2
    Arms simply has problems, DPS is very high with Spin/Ravager/Roar on trash pulls but single target DPS is horrid no matter what you do.

    Getting crit to respectable levels is impossible, rage gen terrible.

    Fury and Arms are simply not viable specs atm. Playing Gladiator is the only option.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by quizzlemanizzle View Post
    Getting crit to respectable levels is impossible, rage gen terrible.
    So what? other Classes also have slow regeneration of their Resources. Rogue, Feral, DK, Hunter, and have their stats not at the level they desire.
    Newsflash: If everyone is terrible, no one is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aydindril View Post

    PS: I can't post any links to my armory which would be worthles anyways, as my character is saved with prot gear there.
    Post a few times constructively, and logout with DPS gear.
    Capitalism, Ho!

  4. #4
    Except all those classes start with a full ressource bar and have natural ressource regeneration.

    As Arms Warrior you have no ways of generating rage anymore.

    And please shut up about Hunters, a Hunter does twice as much damage as an Arms Warrior. Arms and Fury are broken, terrible specs.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by quizzlemanizzle View Post
    Arms simply has problems, DPS is very high with Spin/Ravager/Roar on trash pulls but single target DPS is horrid no matter what you do.
    This is still no explanation why my single target dps drops.

    During 2,5 hours of Molten Core an arms warrior and two gladi warriors were in the top 5 dps, while the two gladiators still were outperfoming the arms warrior he managed to sustain about 16k dps on single target fights.
    I think he had the same iLvl as I but we had a different stat distribution.

  6. #6
    Its a matter of how you perform during the execute phase, I guess. Arms is beneath pretty much every spec right now UNTIL you get into execute phase, where you stand a chance to catch up. Tried capping your rage and saving CS for the execute phase? Your DPS will increase by MILES with some lucky crits.

    Also, heroics is all about keeping SS most of the time and catching that one mob you can execute. Stack mastery and crit. Multistrike is pretty naff for 5mans as most of your damage comes (or should, not counting CDs) from executes.

    Edit: So my fairly uneducated guess would be maybe your mastery dropped and you equipped meh stats like ms and vers, causing a dip?
    Last edited by Vaporino; 2014-11-25 at 10:23 AM.

  7. #7
    Blizzard doesn't say anything about arms and fury... only about shamans.
    I'm afraid they will nerf gladiator soon.
    Ghostcrawler is gone, time to celebrate!

  8. #8
    well tuning is inc soon so we will see if anything is done, problem is i kinda dont wanna have to play glad for progress.
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  9. #9
    Pit Lord Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fincher View Post
    So what? other Classes also have slow regeneration of their Resources. Rogue, Feral, DK, Hunter, and have their stats not at the level they desire.
    Newsflash: If everyone is terrible, no one is.
    Yeah I don't think that's a valid comparison. All of those classes have ways to speed up their resource generation, their resources regenerate passively (meaning they don't actually need to be in combat with or able to hit anything) and they play differently.

    The major difference however is that they don't have the ridiculous amount of downtime that Arms does due to its slow resource generation and poorly designed rotation. Obviously everyone is going to complain that they aren't good enough and that's a matter of perspective but there are degrees to which each class suffers.

    It's hard to argue who has it worse, but from a purely gameplay perspective (engagement), I think Arms is the worst single target spec in the game by far.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydindril View Post
    PS: I can't post any links to my armory which would be worthles anyways, as my character is saved with prot gear there.
    I hate to say this, but maybe a good option for you is to try out Gladiator spec. Your numbers don't scream anything terrible to me. Are you sure your rotation is being executed correctly? Maybe you have the wrong priority in mind? Are you pooling rage for Execute?

    If you try Glad spec, all you need is a Tome of the Clear Mind and you don't need to change to a secondary spec at all. You can even get by by just using your tanking rotation.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrev View Post
    I hate to say this, but maybe a good option for you is to try out Gladiator spec. Your numbers don't scream anything terrible to me. Are you sure your rotation is being executed correctly? Maybe you have the wrong priority in mind? Are you pooling rage for Execute?

    If you try Glad spec, all you need is a Tome of the Clear Mind and you don't need to change to a secondary spec at all. You can even get by by just using your tanking rotation.
    I actually tried gladiator spec and was kinda convinced that it's good, but I played arms since classic and I love this spec. While gladiator is pretty cool and feels a bit like Sword and Board layouts in The Elder Scrolls (4,5, online) or other RPG games I'm still not sure if it is MY spec.
    This said I'd play gladiator to improve my dps (and help my guild) but I don't want to be forced to it. If there was a smaller difference between the (now) three dps specs of a warrior I would be able to play what I wanted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaporino View Post
    Its a matter of how you perform during the execute phase, I guess. Arms is beneath pretty much every spec right now UNTIL you get into execute phase, where you stand a chance to catch up. Tried capping your rage and saving CS for the execute phase? Your DPS will increase by MILES with some lucky crits.

    Also, heroics is all about keeping SS most of the time and catching that one mob you can execute. Stack mastery and crit. Multistrike is pretty naff for 5mans as most of your damage comes (or should, not counting CDs) from executes.

    Edit: So my fairly uneducated guess would be maybe your mastery dropped and you equipped meh stats like ms and vers, causing a dip?

    -> Guess 1: Execute Problems:

    I think I am doing it right or at least the same as before. I missed a few executes or wasn't rage capped while entering the execute phase but that was true in either way, with or without "good" dps.

    -> Guess 2: Missing mastery:

    This could actually be true but as far as I remember my mastery hasn't changed much with about 40%.
    And here's my problem (again) I don't know exatly which stats to priotize. Every guide suggests another stat priority and I can't decide which one to pick.
    Another problem is that I have 2 bags of plate gear of which I could sell 90% if I knew which pieces I should equip.

    -> Ask Mr. Robot => Best in Bag - But theres only the the stat priority of "Str > Crit >= Vers > Multi > Mastery > Haste" premade, which feels "wrong"

    = I need actual numbers to add another priority list there like "strength equals 1 and crit equals 0.9 [...]"

    Thanks for every reply so far.

  12. #12
    With all the flak arms gets, it honestly is the go-to spec for most people when entering challenge modes and new raids on both heroic and mythic. Playing a melee is more brutal and punishing than ever and you will get your ass handed to you if you aren't paying more attention to your surroundings than you are to your rotation, and arms is ideal for that.

    It's been discussed enough for everyone to agree that Arms is absolutely horrible at a patchwerk fight, but if you can somehow get rend ticking on 3-4 targets you will be able to do decent damage even if you're only hitting your primary target while spending like 90% of your time checking your surroundings and 10% on what status your trinkets and abilities have. Gladiator's resolve with Unyielding strikes is the complete opposite.

    I've been playing for a looong time and pride myself on being able to adapt relatively quickly when things change, but boy is it taking time to figure out a decent way of playing this spec. I mean, you literally have zero downtime and over half the time you need to hit multiple buttons in one global cooldown all whilst tracking use trinkets, proc trinkets, when you get the most out of using shield charges, US stacks and duration, when shield slam resets. There isn't a doubt in my mind that most gladiator's specced people out there will either be doing very subpar damage because they're skipping steps or constantly dying because you need to be so glued to what the hell is going on with your bars and auras. In the end you'll work your ass off playing the spec only to get demolished in meters by ferals that have as much downtime as arms which will just make you want to kill yourself.

    In my mind Arms has no tier45 tree. Either you select taste for blood or might aswell not play arms at all. It's the only way for the spec to be competitive at all, and if there aren't multiple targets to rend frequently throughout the fight and you can't/refuse to play gladiator's then you should simply pass your stop for someone more beneficial to the raid.

    Replacing the sudden death talent to something that makes rend ticks grant overpower charges or something might make things more tolerable. More abilities need to be added to the list of things mastery buffs so you aren't stuck with one decent secondary stat and then a bunch of shitty ones that barely matter.
    Last edited by Strafir; Yesterday at 09:55 PM.

  13. #13
    Pit Lord Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aydindril View Post
    I actually tried gladiator spec and was kinda convinced that it's good, but I played arms since classic and I love this spec. While gladiator is pretty cool and feels a bit like Sword and Board layouts in The Elder Scrolls (4,5, online) or other RPG games I'm still not sure if it is MY spec.
    This said I'd play gladiator to improve my dps (and help my guild) but I don't want to be forced to it. If there was a smaller difference between the (now) three dps specs of a warrior I would be able to play what I wanted.




    -> Guess 1: Execute Problems:

    I think I am doing it right or at least the same as before. I missed a few executes or wasn't rage capped while entering the execute phase but that was true in either way, with or without "good" dps.

    -> Guess 2: Missing mastery:

    This could actually be true but as far as I remember my mastery hasn't changed much with about 40%.
    And here's my problem (again) I don't know exatly which stats to priotize. Every guide suggests another stat priority and I can't decide which one to pick.
    Another problem is that I have 2 bags of plate gear of which I could sell 90% if I knew which pieces I should equip.

    -> Ask Mr. Robot => Best in Bag - But theres only the the stat priority of "Str > Crit >= Vers > Multi > Mastery > Haste" premade, which feels "wrong"

    = I need actual numbers to add another priority list there like "strength equals 1 and crit equals 0.9 [...]"

    Thanks for every reply so far.
    AMR's default stat weights and suggested information is notoriously incorrect. You know there is an Arms guide posted here by the way...

    Mastery is supposed to be a good stat for Arms, however, it does dick all for AoE and doesn't affect those abilities one bit. I've argued at length about this but the given response is "that is why you have two gear sets" which I think is asinine, especially considering the whole accessibility, and being able to use items when you get them fad the game is going through, but it is what it is; I would not expect it to change anytime soon.

    Because Mastery is such a bad stat for AoE, you have two choices when deciding to play an Arms Warrior:

    1) You are going to play Arms 100% of the time.
    In this case you should either:
    1A) Build two gear sets, one with Mastery for Single Target/2 Target Cleave and one with as little Mastery as possible for AoE fights
    1B) Decide you dont want to go through that trouble and simply avoid Mastery, so that you can approach every encounter the same without changing gear (my suggestion for most players).

    2) You are only going to play Arms for sustained AoE fights, as that is what the spec is best for.
    In that case you should:
    2A) Simply avoid Mastery.


    Luckily we don't need to care about Mastery much anymore, thanks to the low amount of stats we have and the low rage generation that comes with it, Crit poops all over every other stat, including Mastery. After Crit, the rest of your stats largely don't matter and you'll generally take whatever is available.
    The general priority is STR > Crit > Mult >/= Mastery > Vers > Haste

    Haste scale factor is generally poor, however there are a couple Haste breakpoints to be mindful of. The first is fairly easily reached without gearing for it, and the second sacrifices too many other good stats to be worth chasing at the moment. The breakpoints will generally occur naturally and should only be considered when you are only a handful of stats away, when changing a single enchant or piece of gear will get you there. They are 10% and 25% Haste respectively (2 MS during CS and 5 GCD during CS).
    You still won't want to lose Crit for Haste, but if you find yourself near a breakpoint and can trade a lesser stat (Vers), it could be worth going after it.

    Edit: Nevermind about Haste, avoid it like the plague.

    This profile is <1% (~90 rating) away from the 10% breakpoint and even Versatility poops on it now.

    Regarding Execute
    Once you hit 20%, the rotational downtime gets even worse, because your rage costs increase. You basically don't want to do anything except Refresh Rend, Colossus Smash, Execute when >40 rage, and use talents as appropriate.
    This means that, time considerations aside, you will Execute when high on rage to keep from capping and wait for Colossus Smash to come off cooldown. Once Colossus Smash is close to coming off CD, you'll want to pool rage so that you can fit as many Executes inside the debuff as possible.

    - - - Updated - - -



    There are your stat weights for the T17P (pre-raid) Arms profile. Depending on gear, your mileage may vary but it should generally be similar.
    Last edited by Archimtiros; Today at 03:11 AM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    AMR's default stat weights and suggested information is notoriously incorrect. You know there is an Arms guide posted here by the way...

    Mastery is supposed to be a good stat for Arms, however, it does dick all for AoE and doesn't affect any of our AoE abilities one bit. I've argued at length about this but the given response is "that is why you have two gear sets" which I think is asinine, especially considering the whole accessibility, and being able to use items when you get them fad the game is going through, but it is what it is; I would not expect it to change anytime soon.

    Because Mastery is such a bad stat for AoE, you have two choices when deciding to play an Arms Warrior:

    1) You are going to play Arms 100% of the time.
    In this case you should either:
    1A) Build two gear sets, one with Mastery for Single Target/2 Target Cleave and one with as little Mastery as possible for AoE fights
    1B) Decide you dont want to go through that trouble and simply avoid Mastery, so that you can approach every encounter the same without changing gear (my suggestion for most players).

    2) You are only going to play Arms for sustained AoE fights, as that is what the spec is best for.
    In that case you should:
    2A) Simply avoid Mastery.


    Luckily we don't need to care about Mastery much anymore, thanks to the low amount of stats we have and the low rage generation that comes with it, Crit poops all over every other stat, including Mastery. After Crit, the rest of your stats largely don't matter and you'll generally take whatever is available.
    The general priority is STR > Crit > Mult >/= Mastery > Vers > Haste

    Haste scale factor is generally poor, however there are a couple Haste breakpoints to be mindful of. The first is fairly easily reached without gearing for it, and the second sacrifices too many other good stats to be worth chasing at the moment. The breakpoints will generally occur naturally and should only be considered when you are only a handful of stats away, when changing a single enchant or piece of gear will get you there. They are 10% and 25% Haste respectively (2 MS during CS and 5 GCD during CS).
    You still won't want to lose Crit for Haste, but if you find yourself near a breakpoint and can trade a lesser stat (Vers), it could be worth going after it.

    Edit: Nevermind about Haste, avoid it like the plague.

    This profile is <1% (~90 rating) away from the 10% breakpoint and even Versatility poops on it now.

    Regarding Execute
    Once you hit 20%, the rotational downtime gets even worse, because your rage costs increase. You basically don't want to do anything except Refresh Rend, Colossus Smash, Execute when >40 rage, and use talents as appropriate.
    This means that, time considerations aside, you will Execute when high on rage to keep from capping and wait for Colossus Smash to come off cooldown. Once Colossus Smash is close to coming off CD, you'll want to pool rage so that you can fit as many Executes inside the debuff as possible.

    - - - Updated - - -



    There are your stat weights for the T17P (pre-raid) Arms profile. Depending on gear, your mileage may vary but it should generally be similar.
    According to that image of stat weights multi is barely better then mastery so should we just say fuck it and go mastery?
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  15. #15
    Pit Lord Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellravager View Post
    According to that image of stat weights multi is barely better then mastery so should we just say fuck it and go mastery?
    No, because Mastery is a terrible stat. Re-read that very first paragraph.

  16. #16
    Warrior, as some other classes rely to much on crit in order to be viable in the start of expansions. Arms is worse than most however, you will be stuck in downtime due to lack of rage/enrage. Fury is slightly better, especially 1H i found to be both fun and in the middle of the pack in terms of dps. Bloodthirst has a base 30% crit chance and because of the high attack speed with two weapons you proc free executes very often. There is no colossus smash, so you don't have to coordinate it's effect in addition to enrage.

    TLDR; It is my opinion that Arms not only harder than fury, but less fun and performs worse. Only in AOE do arms have the edge, which is usually not so important were it matters.
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  17. #17
    Real talk now, if you play Arms you play it because there are multiple high health targets on the boss or want to be very aggressive on trash (cm's). There is no way you're going to pick anything but Taste for Blood.

    With that said, what the hell is the point of haste when you're overflowing with rage because you're rending all the things? I cannot find any other benefit aside from a minor attack speed increase which gets absolutely demolished if you would stack mastery just for the sake of buffing execute. With ~77% mastery, scabbard and colossus smash execute has crit north of 180k in one global cooldown and theoretically if you could rend like 5 targets, you could constantly execute the most threatening target for a boatload of damage. To get to the 10% breakpoint you need to go almost all-in on haste which I have a very hard time understanding how it could be worth it if the alternative is to superbuff execute and shine sub 20%.

  18. #18
    Pit Lord Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strafir View Post
    Real talk now, if you play Arms you play it because there are multiple high health targets on the boss or want to be very aggressive on trash (cm's). There is no way you're going to pick anything but Taste for Blood.

    With that said, what the hell is the point of haste when you're overflowing with rage because you're rending all the things? I cannot find any other benefit aside from a minor attack speed increase which gets absolutely demolished if you would stack mastery just for the sake of buffing execute. With ~77% mastery, scabbard and colossus smash execute has crit north of 180k in one global cooldown and theoretically if you could rend like 5 targets, you could constantly execute the most threatening target for a boatload of damage. To get to the 10% breakpoint you need to go almost all-in on haste which I have a very hard time understanding how it could be worth it if the alternative is to superbuff execute and shine sub 20%.
    Actually Arms is ahead of Fury in ST by about 1k at the moment, its just such a braindead spec nobody wants to play it if they can avoid it.

    Second, point of haste is to speed up the GCD; of course that is only the theory. In practice it doesn't actually add up to enough to matter.

    Third, if you had 5 targets, you'd be Whirlwinding them, not executing them. Even if you wanted to go ST damage, you wouldn't do it with Mastery, you'd do it with Crit as well. The only benefit of Mastery is in burst damage, its basically only good as a PvP stat now (since Crit strikes deal reduced damage and multistrike rolls once not twice).


    The overall theme of what your saying is right, but you've got a lot of misconceptions in there. Just clearing some stuff up.

  19. #19
    I have to admit that I really like haste at the moment though it might be the worst stat in theory. In practice it smoothes out arms playstyle for me, especially at currently low gear. It's a matter of taste and playstyle probably. So the only stats that I'm looking for right now are: Crit > Multi/Haste - if possible.

    Also, i would never go without TFB at the moment.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Actually Arms is ahead of Fury in ST by about 1k at the moment, its just such a braindead spec nobody wants to play it if they can avoid it.

    Second, point of haste is to speed up the GCD; of course that is only the theory. In practice it doesn't actually add up to enough to matter.

    Third, if you had 5 targets, you'd be Whirlwinding them, not executing them. Even if you wanted to go ST damage, you wouldn't do it with Mastery, you'd do it with Crit as well. The only benefit of Mastery is in burst damage, its basically only good as a PvP stat now (since Crit strikes deal reduced damage and multistrike rolls once not twice).


    The overall theme of what your saying is right, but you've got a lot of misconceptions in there. Just clearing some stuff up.
    You misunderstood the scenario I was trying to paint. Imagine a boss that spawns an x amount of dummy targets that don't really need to be killed, like the skeletons on BWD nefarian for example. Anything that bleeds will tick grant you rage and fuel an endless amount of executes on a target you desire. What I'm trying to say is that even tho Arms is very dull, it has a purpose and more importantly, it has potential. Essentially we're the shadowpriests trying to fish for orbs by shadow word paining anything and everything.

    Fury is just a sitting duck desperately waiting for procs with no cheesy way of fueling yourself with more rage. Wild strike is way too expensive to be fun and Raging blow does no-where enough damage to justify how frequently it procs.

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