Could we be going back to 10's and 25's separate lockouts?

[Fireslave]

Exactly. With the limited time I have, I want to be able to clear all the content weekly, not run 25man and 10man. So ye, I do hope the raids will continue to share lockouts with each other.

No part of the game rules say that to play you have to clear all content in 1 reset. 10mans are great for 25man guilds to provide something to do out of main raid hours, weekends, when everything is clear, and/or when you cant get 25 people online. In the depth of summer knowing that as a 25man guild you can do 25mans as and when possible and run 10mans for the rest of the time is a relief. The people who want to raid can, and the guild doesnt fall apart.

[Millennía]

I dont think we will go back to seperate lockout because of the degree of unfairness to 10 man guilds it would bring because a 25 man guild can clear the raids then go do them on 10 man with 2 teams but a 10 man cant clear it then go up to 25 man because majority simply dont have the numbers to do so and there arent very many 25 man Pugs for new content.

I hope it will be 1 of 2 things:

#1 - They make normal modes have seperate IDs from heroics. So I for example could clear 10 man normal (be saved to 25 man normal) and then start to work on heroic mode in the same week. This is my preferred route.

#2 - More levels of difficulty than just Easy and Hard with they have different lockouts like mentioned above or similar although this seems less likely for the moment.

[Jaja]

Lower Item Level in 10mans again, would be my guess at this.

Not sure if they will separate the lockouts again although as someone mentioned with the Valor Cap it wouldn't be a bad thing.

Edit: The whole it isn't fair to a 10man guild cause 25man can go 10x2 as well as their 25man. Tell that to the 10man BC guilds. Oh wait...

[Bokoshoko]

Not sure they'd want to bring back in the old system with different iLvls given the current situation we are in was in direct response to what Blizzard thought was a failing in the old system.

Maybe they'll bring in some kind of loot table lock rather boss lock - within a given lock period you can kill a boss as many times as you like but you only get one item of loot from that boss (personally) per lockout.

But Blizzard said they brought in the 10/25 "equality" to stop the pressure to run both raid sizes, to help prevent the stat escalation seen at the end of WoTLK etc and to gate the rapid acquisition of gear.

There's always the possibility that Blizzard are thinking about this topic and the possibility of a new, single raid size as a part of a single solution.

[Deleted]

Blizzard just need to pull there shit together, and not only thinking of all this casual players there is walking around in wow.....we want the old system back with with different Ilvl and lockouts, now that I have tried fireland on both 10 and 25man, must I say that 10mans is a freaking walk in the park, and the gear is way way to easy earned. so blizzard pls stop SUCKING UP to all the so call casuel player. or rather in many eyes nut cakes who never will be good at playing wow....and yeayea just start flaming me, I don't care, because you know, I know, and everyone els know that I'm right in this case.......but then again....24/11 will hopefully be the turning point for all the crap we have been feed up with from blizzards side over the last 2 years.

[Magisleeper]

If they separate lockouts and keep loot the same then any serious 25-man raiders will be required to run both raid sizes in a week, not doing so would basically halve your gear progression rate, which just wouldn't be acceptable to a serious raiding group. 10-man raiders would be conversely incentivised to form shaky alliances or PuGs to enable them to run 25-man content to help them in the same manner.

Neither of these seems like a good thing, and that doesn't even begin to cover the burnout that running the same content multiple times per week on the same characters brings.

Shared lockout is the only thing that makes equal loot acceptable.

Ok seriously this is just getting redundant now, anyone who complains about killing the same boss 2x in a single week has NEVER done progression. Bosses dont just fall over dead and drop loot you wipe constantly, over and over and over again until you work out a strategy to kill it. I wish I have only ever had to spend two attempts on a boss every week; Perhaps some easier bosses take one shot, but anyone who has ever pushed progression knows as well as I do that 2x per kill a week is dream-mode progression.

Seriously people get real. Your only complaining because if it were to revert back to seperate lockouts you would fall short of 25 man raiding guilds instead of keeping progress with them. If your casual and dont care what other people do why do you care what loot others get. If your so hardcore and would stay on top of 25s either way, once again, why do you care, what do you have to be afraid of?

[BillyStGlitch]

I'd love it back, the shared lockouts killed raid pugs on my server, and we (Kil'Jaeden) had more than you could count every week back in WotLK.

[Deleted]

Ok seriously this is just getting redundant now, anyone who complains about killing the same boss 2x in a single week has NEVER done progression. Bosses dont just fall over dead and drop loot you wipe constantly, over and over and over again until you work out a strategy to kill it. I wish I have only ever had to spend two attempts on a boss every week; Perhaps some easier bosses take one shot, but anyone who has ever pushed progression knows as well as I do that 2x per kill a week is dream-mode progression.

Seriously people get real. Your only complaining because if it were to revert back to seperate lockouts you would fall short of 25 man raiding guilds instead of keeping progress with them. If your casual and dont care what other people do why do you care what loot others get. If your so hardcore and would stay on top of 25s either way, once again, why do you care, what do you have to be afraid of?

So having got your prog kill, you'd be happy to then do double the length of farming for gear? That's what most people are unhappy about, I understand.

[Magisleeper]

So having got your prog kill, you'd be happy to then do double the length of farming for gear? That's what most people are unhappy about, I understand.

Any person in a progression guild is happy to get as much experience as possible to further progress the next time around. In any progression guild there is no expectation to complete irrelevent content; Although it is never a detrement to have extra experience.

Edit:Additional - Your assumption, that of 'farming for gear' is absurd at best, assumes that obtaining gear will be equally difficult for both 10 and 25 man raiders. At the current gear level thats the same assuption as claiming that completing firelands dailies ensure the best gear possible to tackle heroic bosses.

[Cassidin]

Which game are you playing btw, it sounds fun, can I get a link?

Gz with the sarcasm - was well done.

However it's fairly obvious that 1 out of 7 healers dying for example is less important than 1 out of 2. 25 Man raids have always been more forgiving as each player is a smaller proportion of the whole raid. Yes in 25 man mode there are often extra elements to the fight, but they dont really make the fight that much harder and with more people its easier to handle anyway.

Bottom line: You can feel safe and comfy thinking that your 25 man raids are much harder and therefore deserve better loot than 10 man versions, but I think most people who have done both would agree that often that isnt the case. Whatever, if it makes you happy to believe it is, good on you

BTW: Im not saying that 25 man raids are easy and 10 man raids are hard btw... Im just saying that making it 25 man doesnt always make it harder. There are times 10 man is harder and times 25 man is harder. I think they even out tbh. Maybe this isnt the case for firelands - havent done any firelands raids yet - but historically this is the case.

[Deleted]

Never understood this tbh as 25 man is OFTEN (not always I know) easier and definately more forgiving than 10 man. In 25 man someone who stands in the fire can be carried etc. A Healer down in 25 man is an inconvenience, a healer down in 10 man is dangerous etc. The only thing that (usually) is harder in 25 man raids is the getting people together in the first place.

I dont see why 25 man raids should be rewarded with better gear for an easier gameplay.

(and yes, as I said I DO know that sometimes 25 man fights are harder - but not often)

Stop joking, mate.

---------- Post added 2011-08-23 at 03:21 PM ----------

Gz with the sarcasm - was well done.

However it's fairly obvious that 1 out of 7 healers dying for example is less important than 1 out of 2. 25 Man raids have always been more forgiving as each player is a smaller proportion of the whole raid. Yes in 25 man mode there are often extra elements to the fight, but they dont really make the fight that much harder and with more people its easier to handle anyway.

Bottom line: You can feel safe and comfy thinking that your 25 man raids are much harder and therefore deserve better loot than 10 man versions, but I think most people who have done both would agree that often that isnt the case. Whatever, if it makes you happy to believe it is, good on you

Ask any decent raider who've done both and I'll guarantee you 95% of those will give you the same answer: 25 man is in another league. The tuning on heroic mode is completely different and requires you to cut healers like mad. 10m HC BWD/BoT was overtuned when it was first released, but 10m HC Firelands is not by ANY means harder than 25m Heroic. And this is ONLY from a tuning point of view.

[Trifande]

or...they could just have normal and HM on a separate lockout. I can spend 'regular' raid days doing HM progression and pug the 'normal' modes on offnights / weekends when i'm free.

[Deleted]

Ask any decent raider who've done both and I'll guarantee you 95% of those will give you the same answer: 25 man is in another league. The tuning on heroic mode is completely different and requires you to cut healers like mad. 10m HC BWD/BoT was overtuned when it was first released, but 10m HC Firelands is not by ANY means harder than 25m Heroic. And this is ONLY from a tuning point of view.

Isn't it just fair for 10s to be easier now (I'm not saying that they are) if they really were more difficult in T11? 25-man guilds didn't seem to mind doing the "easy mode" back then, nor were they bashing Blizzard for the difference (assuming that this difference existed). Give it a few months and the balance will be closer to what it was at the end of T11.

As to the topic itself, I'd see having seperate raid ID's you could use for normal and heroic raids a much more viable option - even if it's something I wouldn't like personally. Gearing up is ridiculously fast as it is, and allowing this would just speed it up even more so. Also, acquiring the Legendary would become ridiculously easy this way.

[Velfar]

give back weekly raid Quests plz for T11 content (T12 + T11 when T13 hits live)

I like this idea, even if it's a little OT. Miss doing them, and its a nice way to reach the valor cap if you werent able to do it from the progress-raid or whatever. Sucks that you feel abit "forced" to do heroic dungeons to get them

[Tatsianna007]

The shared lockout system is a response to a problem that barely existed, namely, that some raiders felt that they MUST run both 10 and 25 man to maximize gear. The majority of players definitely did not feel this pressure, and, more importantly, very few people QUIT over having to run both 10 and 25 man. You could always choose to relax.

I did quit over the sharing of lockouts, as it completely destroyed my community, the pug raiding community. I know A LOT of people who quit because they suddenly couldn't form raiding groups because "so and so" has to raid with his guild so he can't come to our raid, "so and so" wants to raid with his wife so he can't come, "so and so" wants to raid with his friends even though they suck, etc., when with separate lockouts, they could run with two groups. It also seems to have destroyed the general community on a lot of servers, as people just aren't meeting new people outside of their guild anymore.

[Vargur]

also with seperate lockouts, but to balance the ilevel differance 10 mans and 25's now reward the same amount of Valor.

They really don't.

[Deleted]

It also seems to have destroyed the general community on a lot of servers, as people just aren't meeting new people outside of their guild anymore.

This is the biggest issue with the shared lockouts for me. I used to regularly pug 10mans on my main over thw weekend but now it seems that I only ever play with people from my guild.

[Tziva]

I know the shared lockout is wildly unpopular but I actually like it. I don't like feeling obligated to run both raids to maximise my character. And, let's face it, if you're trying to be responsible about gearing your character as fast and as well as possible, you're pretty obligated.

With the shared lockout, I can run on an alt or not at all if I want, I like that.

However, with only one short-but-hard raid per tier like we have with Firelands and will have in 4.3, it does make me feel a little underwhelmed on my main. Shared lockouts would probably be less of a frustration if the raids were long like Ulduar.

[Buf]

I think we could go back to seperate lock outs now. with a valor cap for the week, the only reason you would raid the extra 25 or 10 man content is for the gear. Thus the people that want that extra edge in content can do it. but the people that don't have a lot of time and want to still raid i think that would be viable to atleast get there tier and stuff around the same time.

[allianceTrade]

A lot of people aren't seeing the bigger picture here. The current raid lockout punishes active players by not allowing them to raid on off-raid hours. The current system works fine for a majority of the casual playerbase or people who don't have that extra time.

I was really annoyed by this change in Catalog because like previous posters said, it killed pugs and just generally made things more confusing. How many times have you zoned into a locked BH because someone forgot they were locked?

The simplest solution is to keep the same system with same gear on each raid size but just make the player already locked to bosses ineligible for loot or valor from said bosses. Not sure about achievement eligibility but probably that too. You might run into issues with 9 7/7 locked players running some guys alt through Firelands for gear but on the flipside this would also make gearing up alts for 10m roster gaps easier, or people switching mains.

Right now I just sit in stormwind chain queuing heroics like vp or stonecore for drakes or vp for volatile air, etc. I miss the days where there were Ulduar pugs or toc pugs or gdkps that I could attend on the weekends. Forcing me to have an alt just to play after I'm locked is annoying and frustrating and I think a lot of active players with free time agree.