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  1. #1

    Cloak and Dagger remains a slap in the face.

    It's overused but accurate. It's a meritless talent. I know Woundman or some other son of fucking Mercury used it along with six other demigod combat rogues two seasons ago, but that's really not acceptable, and no other class or spec sees bizarro tuning like that.


    Burst of Speed got nerfed, which amuses me because this tier started with people telling me I was nub for saying it was worth using, and ended with rogues pleading about how it "feels mandatory". The nerf is pretty major, but the move will still function, and presumably there should be less CC (though no less snares), so something that increases uptime will be relatively more valuable.



    But forget that. They can visit the tier to add 33% cost to a move, but can't be arsed to give us a real closer in this talent spot? This has been a bullshit thing since the dawn of MoP, when it was prep and rogues were worthless. We saw HALF A SEASON where this move had some synergy with thug cleave, but don't worry guys: they fixed it before the season was even half expired, and by fixed, and I mean deleted.


    The current version has seen some use during subterfuge with combat at top end arenas in 3s.... and that's it. No RBG play, no use with the other specs, no use in world pvp, no use when questing.




    Shit like this, stacked with the lack of animations and the lack of UI DEFINITELY gives credence to the claim that rogues are a forgotten class, one the devs think they have a solid grasp on and don't need to do jack for, likely based on a couple true world class rogues they have employed and a few terrible rogue alts.

    This talent needs to fill pvp gap closing niches left undone by the other two, as well as give us the playstyle we deserve out of a third talent point. Many classes have talent points that change per fucking SPEC. We can't even get three whole talents on the same goddamned tier.

  2. #2
    The Patient Linneth's Avatar
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    Haste will fix it.

    Rogues are perfectly tuned in Mists PvP, it is the other 10 classes which are overpowered.

    We are testing a new mechanic with the GCD reduction on T15 4P during Adrenaline Rush, if it feels good we may stick with it.

    We will try to differenciate Rogue and Hunter specs next expansion
    (proceeds to tinker with Boomkin and Warrior instead).

    We haven't completely removed the positional requirement for Backstab because otherwise it would become Facestab.

    There are new utility poisons coming.

    The only explanation I find for trying to balance BoS and not do anything with C&D is that if BoS is overpowered it affects the other classes, while C&D being useless only affects Rogues, which are going to be the least played class even behind Monks in less than half a year at this rate. Sad but true.

    Another ridiculous talent which is not being changed is Leeching Poison; there's no reason to have it gated behind a Talent row when it is already mutually exclusive with other non-letal poisons (I mean Crippling, because we have no other choice).
    Last edited by Linneth; 2014-08-06 at 12:01 AM.

  3. #3
    Wow. Two rant posts about how bad a talent C&D is(to which I agree), but not a single suggestion how to make it better. I am impressed...not.

    Okay then how would you make it better, or what would you put in its place instead? Bear in mind, that the 3rd talent tier is our movement section, whatever you put in there, has to be a viable alternative to ShS and BoS.

    Now, here comes the problem, my over-excited friends: There are not many ways to move around in this game while in combat. Either you run faster, or you blink. That's basically it.
    -== Worgen Rageface makes me laugh ==-

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    Wow. Two rant posts about how bad a talent C&D is(to which I agree), but not a single suggestion how to make it better. I am impressed...not.

    Okay then how would you make it better, or what would you put in its place instead? Bear in mind, that the 3rd talent tier is our movement section, whatever you put in there, has to be a viable alternative to ShS and BoS.

    Now, here comes the problem, my over-excited friends: There are not many ways to move around in this game while in combat. Either you run faster, or you blink. That's basically it.
    The problem lies with the mobility tier overall. We have a dead talent, a mandatory pvp talent (with no middle ground - either it's brokenly OP or a complete shit) and mandatory pve talent. The solution was voiced ad nauseum before - make SS baseline and made 1 tier revolving around it (similar to the warrior's mobility tier).

  5. #5
    Herald of the Titans Nalira's Avatar
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    What if the 800k subs were all Rogues? /conspiracy

  6. #6
    Dreadlord Ninaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalira View Post
    What if the 800k subs were all Rogues? /conspiracy
    There were that many active Rogue players?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninaran View Post
    There were that many active Rogue players?
    well if rogue polulation is about 5% and thats realy a high number .... numbers seem to fit somehow :P (just joking)
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  8. #8
    "burst of speed got nerfed" - there goes the credibility of your post.

    there will always be a cookie cutter build regardless of what blizzard is trying to push down our throats.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    Wow. Two rant posts about how bad a talent C&D is(to which I agree), but not a single suggestion how to make it better. I am impressed...not.
    Well, get impressed. Because that's all we are supposed to do, is point out the issues.

    What, you think WE'RE DESIGNERS? You think we are the fucking devs?



    I have threads where I make suggestions about stuff. Cloak and Dagger even.


    Here's me pointing out the issue when it was first a thing, over a year ago:
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...dowdance/page6

    Here's me asking for Hit and Run, the TALENT THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ALL ALONG, also from over a year ago:
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...dow-Step/page2



    I could come up with a bunch of cool ideas here. We could get hit and run back (it was on a PTR, never live), or we could gain an unpeelable period (similar to C+D's effect with shadow dance, which proved too strong), or we could gain something that breaks roots. We could gain a scorpion wire type move, or blah blah. Seriously, there's fucking plenty of great ideas, and I don't need to state them for the rest of this thread to be valid. I can point to cloak and dagger, and say it fucking sucks ass. Because it sucks ass. I don't need to ALSO DO THEIR JOB FOR THEM, which won't matter because they aren't in the habit of grabbing random rogue ideas from the net and just fucking putting them on live.


    Okay then how would you make it better, or what would you put in its place instead? Bear in mind, that the 3rd talent tier is our movement section, whatever you put in there, has to be a viable alternative to ShS and BoS.
    Yes, of fucking COURSE. The fact that it isn't is the problem. Is this some kind of RIDDLE? Do you honestly think that THERE ARE NO OTHER GAP CLOSERS CONCEIVABLE? I mean, this is a game with charge, death grip, various manner of pvp trinkets, a wide variety of defensive or gap closing buffs, and of course, there used to even be an option there, hit and run, which never went live.


    There's literally a dozen possible gap closers that could go there. But I don't need to bring any of them up. If I think Hit and Run would be great, then the thread would be you or someone saying why hit and run sucks, and no one cares and it's irrelevant anyway. Hit and run, or any other gap closer, isn't the issue. We need a real talent there.


    Now, here comes the problem, my over-excited friends: There are not many ways to move around in this game while in combat. Either you run faster, or you blink. That's basically it.

    Funny, enhancement shaman, ret paladins, warriors, ferals, monks, and death knights all have gap closers and movement talents. The game already has over a dozen ways to do stuff. We aren't just out of them period.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    "burst of speed got nerfed" - there goes the credibility of your post.
    Why? WHY?

    "Burst of speed got nerfed" is absolutely and unarguably what just happened. The move got the cost increased. Does "the sky is blue" make something incredible in your world too?

    The point is that they are clearly bothering with fine tuning on these talents, while leaving cloak and dagger worthless for going on two years. Since they never make fixes like this in tier, this means it will remain shit for likely four years.


    So yes, that's a slap in the face. It will take them longer to fix that talent tier than it will get a goddamned undergrad degree. That's disgraceful.



    there will always be a cookie cutter build regardless of what blizzard is trying to push down our throats.
    Irrelevant. The point is that while BoS and step are both interesting and have tradeoffs, despite BoS being a bit better on average, if you take Cloak and Dagger you either have a brutally exploitative combo in mind (that probably will never work), or you just picked a trap talent.

  10. #10
    I would like for sprint to become a real closer but I agree something needs to be done with the tier and cnd sucks.

  11. #11
    I think sprint is and will remain a battlefield positioning tool. Old Improved Sprint was an amazing move, but you ran out of steam almost instantly with it. It wasn't viable as a gap closer, because it had a one minute cooldown- to say nothing of the fact that it only rarely actually closed a gap.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Well, get impressed. Because that's all we are supposed to do, is point out the issues.
    What, you think WE'RE DESIGNERS? You think we are the fucking devs?
    No, but where I work, If someone complains to the PI or the Dean, he is asked "Okay, how would you do it?" That's a completely rational question, no need to get angry about it.


    I have threads where I make suggestions about stuff. Cloak and Dagger even.

    Here's me pointing out the issue when it was first a thing, over a year ago:
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...dowdance/page6

    Here's me asking for Hit and Run, the TALENT THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ALL ALONG, also from over a year ago:
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...dow-Step/page2
    Either I am missing something, or there really are no suggestions in these threads.


    I could come up with a bunch of cool ideas here. We could get hit and run back (it was on a PTR, never live), or we could gain an unpeelable period (similar to C+D's effect with shadow dance, which proved too strong)
    We could also get a lasergun that oneshots people and shoots through walls. Or something else that is completely overpowered. That's not a solution.

    or we could gain something that breaks roots.
    We already do. It's called CloS, it's called vanish. Yes there are too many CCs in the game right now to use them for this purpose, but 1) That's not a rogue issue, and 2) It's being adressed in WoD as we speak.

    Seriously, there's fucking plenty of great ideas, and I don't need to state them for the rest of this thread to be valid. I can point to cloak and dagger, and say it fucking sucks ass. Because it sucks ass. I don't need to ALSO DO THEIR JOB FOR THEM, which won't matter because they aren't in the habit of grabbing random rogue ideas from the net and just fucking putting them on live.
    Ofc you don't and you are right, the talent sucks. I just assumed that when civilised people complain about something, then they also have a solution, or at least some notion about such.

    Yes, of fucking COURSE. The fact that it isn't is the problem. Is this some kind of RIDDLE? Do you honestly think that THERE ARE NO OTHER GAP CLOSERS CONCEIVABLE? I mean, this is a game with charge, death grip, various manner of pvp trinkets, a wide variety of defensive or gap closing buffs, and of course, there used to even be an option there, hit and run, which never went live.
    Funny, enhancement shaman, ret paladins, warriors, ferals, monks, and death knights all have gap closers and movement talents. The game already has over a dozen ways to do stuff. We aren't just out of them period.
    "Over a dozen ways"? Seriously? Name one gap closer that is not either a blink, a displace or a speedup mechanic. Charge is basically a blink. Death Grip is a displace. There is no "wide variety".
    -== Worgen Rageface makes me laugh ==-

  13. #13
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    No, but where I work, If someone complains to the PI or the Dean, he is asked "Okay, how would you do it?" That's a completely rational question, no need to get angry about it.
    It's a rational question, but it's completely irrelevant. I don't know how to solve the Syrian crisis, that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to point out that the civil war fucking sucks and should stop.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    It's a rational question, but it's completely irrelevant. I don't know how to solve the Syrian crisis, that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to point out that the civil war fucking sucks and should stop.
    And how relevant is stating the obvious?
    -== Worgen Rageface makes me laugh ==-

  15. #15
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    And how relevant is stating the obvious?
    Depends on the point you're trying get across I suppose. In this instance, I'm trying to highlight how not being able to solve a problem doesn't mean you're not allowed to point out that the problem exists.

    Hope that helps.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    No, but where I work, If someone complains to the PI or the Dean, he is asked "Okay, how would you do it?" That's a completely rational question, no need to get angry about it.
    You're not the fucking Dean. If some dev wants to ask my opinion on that, you can bet I'll give him a thrice edited document, along with which points I feel VERY confident discussing (aka, I'm almost sure I'm correct) and which ones I'm a lot less sure of (aka, it feels like an issue, but I don't know how to solve it).

    Most importantly, it's totally reasonable to not know how to solve something that is a problem. If my dad had played WoW vanilla and said he wanted a better way to go against other players, it's not reasonable to dismiss his opinion unless he's smart enough to know that battlegrounds COULD be a thing, queuing COULD be a thing, instanced combat COULD be a thing. You don't need to know the solution to pinpoint the fucking problem.

    In fact, in these threads, asking for a solution turns the game into "nitpick the proposed solution". Which you actually do right after I say that you would do that, because you aren't interested in solving a problem, just trying to get me to throw an idea out and then attacking it.

    Either I am missing something, or there really are no suggestions in these threads.
    You're missing it, but who cares. You aren't here to participate anyway.


    We could also get a lasergun that oneshots people and shoots through walls. Or something else that is completely overpowered. That's not a solution.
    Lol, proof here.

    I said:

    "I could come up with a bunch of cool ideas here. We could get hit and run back (it was on a PTR, never live), or we could gain an unpeelable period (similar to C+D's effect with shadow dance, which proved too strong)"

    Which of these "one shots you through walls"? Hit and Run was considered sketchy because it involved a ground target, it was never too strong. You could put Hit and Run on LIVE and it would be 100% fine. An unpeelable period, which is what many of the other classes already have, would obviously be strong, but you'd be able to tune it. Giving bladestorm to vanilla warriors would have been "a lasergun that oneshotts people and shoots through walls", but guess what? It was able to be added. Full unpeelability and burst damage, and the game is balanced around it.

    BOTH of those changes could be added. A passive that makes you unsnareable could be added, but it would require bigger class changes (hint: ferals mostly have this already).

    I gave very vague descriptions of moves that are not overpowered, and for proof is the fact that the game already has several variations of these moves. I guess monks have transcendance, so they one shot people through walls, and combat rogues have killing spree, which is why they are all on the top arena teams.


    Get real. You just want to have something to bash. You don't want ideas. The game has a ton of balanced gap closers. It would be entirely reasonable for these kinds of things to exist as choices alongside shadowstep and burst of speed.


    Go play your bash game in another thread, and stop wasting our time. We need cloak and dagger replaced with something worth using, and there's literally a dozen ideas that are fine.



    Ofc you don't and you are right, the talent sucks. I just assumed that when civilised people complain about something, then they also have a solution, or at least some notion about such.
    Not at all. Again, that's ludicrous. When I'm at work and something is broken, I can go tell the person whose job it is to fix it, and he'll fix it. When something of mine is broken, I don't get to go up to everyone who complains and ask them to tell me how to fix it.

    And I do have "solutions", but they are a dime a dozen. Delete cloak and dagger, put in a gap closer. That's the solution. The nature of the gap closer? I'm sure if I listed one, you'd just be shitting on it. In fact, you already were.


    "Over a dozen ways"? Seriously? Name one gap closer that is not either a blink, a displace or a speedup mechanic. Charge is basically a blink. Death Grip is a displace. There is no "wide variety".
    I see you added "displace" to your list of things. It's ok if things collide here.

    Warriors can can charge and intervene (and used to intercept). These aren't really blinks- they'll take damage from crossing things, can't charge across gaps, etc. They can also heroic leap (ground target).

    Death Knights can reduce their snares taken, can aoe grip, can single target grip.

    Shaman can become unsnareable and sprint.

    Paladins can become unsnareable and self dispel.

    Ferals can shift out of roots and snares without limit, passively move faster, actively move faster, and then have a gap closing tier which is composed of a leap, a teleport, and a passive speed boost. Why aren't you in their forums telling them that displacer beast needs to become cloak and fucking dagger, because both are really the same thing?


    Again, there's a dozen. They are in game in all variations, and many more variations remain available for rogue themed closers. A wire that grabs someone and both the rogue and the someone meet in the middle (like the now removed clash). You and the target teleport to shadow realm together for a few seconds. Both are immune in the shadow realm. Ground target teleport, such as hit and run. You and the target exchange places. You become unpeelable for two seconds, immune to all crowd controls, one minute cooldown (not usable CCed). You become unrootable/unsnareable for six seconds, purges existing roots and snares, thirty second cooldown. Whatever, as long as it is worth dropping burst of speed and shadow step for, without being an autopick over those.

    EDIT: And I should point out that the devs are fine with even ROGUES having multiple teleports, as witnessed by cloak and dagger already being a teleport. You could even keep the spirit of the move by making it make env/evis/kidney teleport you instead of openers, but having the range increase by 4 yards per combo point instead of a constant.
    Last edited by Verain; 2014-08-07 at 04:55 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    Wow. Two rant posts about how bad a talent C&D is(to which I agree), but not a single suggestion how to make it better. I am impressed...not.

    Okay then how would you make it better, or what would you put in its place instead? Bear in mind, that the 3rd talent tier is our movement section, whatever you put in there, has to be a viable alternative to ShS and BoS.

    Now, here comes the problem, my over-excited friends: There are not many ways to move around in this game while in combat. Either you run faster, or you blink. That's basically it.
    You can add conditions. Like warlock port (blink to saved pos ingoring los) warrior charge (blink to target)

    Here's one idea: You create a shadow clone which sticks to selected target. Press again and you switch position with your clone. (delayed blink to target)

  18. #18
    Stood in the Fire DrArtorius's Avatar
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    It could be something to make you imune to slows/stuns/whatever for like... 5seconds? With a cd of course and not effective against every cc, cloak already works for poly/hex/charm/roots...

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by DrArtorius View Post
    It could be something to make you imune to slows/stuns/whatever for like... 5seconds? With a cd of course and not effective against every cc, cloak already works for poly/hex/charm/roots...
    Is this satire?
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    not quite Batman

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    And how relevant is stating the obvious?
    Cool it with the attitude. Now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Is this satire?
    You might explain that one a bit more. I know that's basically listing the major interesting categories of CC, but he isn't saying it couldn't just be for roots or roots and snares.

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