Demonology: FAQ and Answers

[Harsesis]

While I feel bad that you can get "lucky" with impending doom and get your cd below 2 min. That trinket and the doomguard "bug" are the only things keeping the spec viable. You fix either of them and demo goes back to being nothing more than a backup buff to ele shamans.

[Brauhm]

I actually disagree. It is in fact the second worst trinket ever (the worst being the NMIC). It completely destroys a perfectly good talent in the form of Impending Doom that offered something completely unique to the spec - a dynamic cooldown. It doesn't actually confer the spec any advantage either - in order to remain competative, the spec is a slave to it and still, in real terms going from raidbots.com's figures, the spec is very much mediocre - Affliction will out perform it on every encounter aside from Rhyolith.

Sure it's fun to see crazy numbers and feel like you're exploiting a bug, or making clever use of game mechanics at first. But when you step back and think 'Hey, this Boomkin, SPriest, Afflock, or Arcane Mage can actually keep up with or overtake me without doing anything even close this bullshit', you really start to wonder what the hell is going on. That this trinket is - if these mechanics aren't fixed - going to be with us until the next expansion because it is so "good", is really not a nice prospect, since it will put a block on our scaling and cause the spec to in fact fall behind in 4.3.

You are completely correct, but that's irrelevant. Nothing like this has been done in wow this expac, you have a trinket that litterally changes the way a spec can work and function, I find it fantastic but that's just me. Also, just saying, Demo warlocks are top single target dps patchworked, only boomkin and S. Priest can keep up.

---------- Post added 2011-09-03 at 07:48 AM ----------

While I feel bad that you can get "lucky" with impending doom and get your cd below 2 min. That trinket and the doomguard "bug" are the only things keeping the spec viable. You fix either of them and demo goes back to being nothing more than a backup buff to ele shamans.

This is also true, but with the development of this trinket I believe that Blizz doesn't plan on fixing the doomguard bug anytime soon. This trinket was literally made for Demonology in every way. Though, if they do fix, then it will be a huge error on Blizz's part. You can't give only two specs 10% spellpower and make only one of them raid viable. = /

[Harsesis]

Mages give 6% and I think that's good enough in Blizz's eyes. Also the Moonwell is good for more than demo. Arcane Mages and Ele shamans love them as well.

[Brauhm]

Mages give 6% and I think that's good enough in Blizz's eyes. Also the Moonwell is good for more than demo. Arcane Mages and Ele shamans love them as well.

That's true but it doesn't change their stat values around, or what talents are better. Also, for progression, no one see's 6% as satisfactory, and in 10 man's its really hard to get your hands on. Also, Demonology scales well with stats, hopefully for 4.3 we'll be able to keep up without the exploit of Doomguard and Mastery on use. The value of haste scales poorly as you climb higher, but mastery is a static bonus, we should still be above destruction (unless they fix it) for next patch, but still under affliction. Affliction will probably always be the best spec (God knows its my favorite) but regardless, its still nice to be able to have a competitive off spec with very interesting mechanics.

[Harsesis]

I think the viability of demo is going to come down to the fight. If a fight doesn't allow a pet to be constantly hitting something useful the demo's dps drops more than any other pet spec. So it's really Blizzard's move on that one.

[Brauhm]

I think the viability of demo is going to come down to the fight. If a fight doesn't allow a pet to be constantly hitting something useful the demo's dps drops more than any other pet spec. So it's really Blizzard's move on that one.

BM and Survival hunters lose a lot of dps too, not as much as ours but enough to make it an issue. I think that all pets should be viable to use as demo since it is the Demonology spec, as in, we're kinda demon masters why can't we use them all to their full potential?

[Jessicka]

You are completely correct, but that's irrelevant. Nothing like this has been done in wow this expac, you have a trinket that litterally changes the way a spec can work and function, I find it fantastic but that's just me. Also, just saying, Demo warlocks are top single target dps patchworked, only boomkin and S. Priest can keep up.

That's exactly what I dislike about it. And really, who cares about Patchwerk sims anyway? Take a look at the top 100 Baleroc 25N data, Arcane is outperforming Demo by a lot, as are Fury and MM Hunters, go hard mode and Demo slips to mid tables. Sims are not, and never have been accurately representative.

Mages give 6% and I think that's good enough in Blizz's eyes. Also the Moonwell is good for more than demo. Arcane Mages and Ele shamans love them as well.

Both those specs have logical upgrades this very tier. Unless in 4.3 they introduce another MWC but with higher stats, we'll be using this thing on Deathwing HM.

That's true but it doesn't change their stat values around, or what talents are better. Also, for progression, no one see's 6% as satisfactory, and in 10 man's its really hard to get your hands on. Also, Demonology scales well with stats, hopefully for 4.3 we'll be able to keep up without the exploit of Doomguard and Mastery on use. The value of haste scales poorly as you climb higher, but mastery is a static bonus, we should still be above destruction (unless they fix it) for next patch, but still under affliction. Affliction will probably always be the best spec (God knows its my favorite) but regardless, its still nice to be able to have a competitive off spec with very interesting mechanics.

Here's the deal though, Demo is my main spec; I do this every fight, not just when I feel like a change for lols. They're not particularly interesting mechanics either, in fact MWC fundamentally dumbs them down by reducing it to a 2 minute cooldown spec. In terms of playing, it detracts much more than it offers, and I can't help but feel the 'interest' you have is very much more in the meta-game of mathing out these "exploits".

[Brauhm]

That's exactly what I dislike about it. And really, who cares about Patchwerk sims anyway? Take a look at the top 100 Baleroc 25N data, Arcane is outperforming Demo by a lot, as are Fury and MM Hunters, go hard mode and Demo slips to mid tables. Sims are not, and never have been accurately representative.


Both those specs have logical upgrades this very tier. Unless in 4.3 they introduce another MWC but with higher stats, we'll be using this thing on Deathwing HM.

Here's the deal though, Demo is my main spec; I do this every fight, not just when I feel like a change for lols. They're not particularly interesting mechanics either, in fact MWC fundamentally dumbs them down by reducing it to a 2 minute cooldown spec. In terms of playing, it detracts much more than it offers, and I can't help but feel the 'interest' you have is very much more in the meta-game of mathing out these "exploits".

Demo has been my mainspec since the beginning of cata, I was forced to go it because we didn't have 10% spellpower which added from all the casters + me outweighed by far me staying affliction. This IS my mainspec, but my heart still lies with affliction. I agree that it may dumb it down some to use, but I love having the control over your meta cd where before it was random. I really really prefer that. But that's just me. You have very very valid points though.

[Hystify]

Take a look at the top 100 Baleroc 25N data, Arcane is outperforming Demo by a lot, as are Fury and MM Hunters, go hard mode and Demo slips to mid tables.

Arcane mages? Current trend of guilds giving their first legendaries to arcane mages first?
Fury warriors? Recklessness 5min CD? Baleroc 25H ~6min fight?
MM hunters? Rapid fire 5min CD? Baleroc 25H ~6min fight?

Demo locks slipping to middle of the charts? 3/3 Demonic embrace + Glyphed soul link = one of the most efficient shard soakers = more movement = DPS loss?

Wait... I don't even...

MWC fundamentally dumbs them down by reducing it to a 2 minute cooldown spec

Go for a full haste-centric build.
Use NF/(H) with DMC:V instead of MWC.
Pop meta off CD due to massive impending doom procs.
Profit?????????

If you're not convinced that this is a viable way to play demo, feel free to sim this profile in simcraft:

http://textuploader.com/?p=6&id=gjzGh

This is the T12H profile, modified to pop meta off CD and using Heroic Necromantic Focus instead of Moonwell Chalice. And also the gear reforges were modified to prioritise haste over mastery. Final gear amounts are 2.1k haste, 1.6k mastery and 900 crit. 0.01% off hit cap.

[koltara]

Jessickas concerns are not right in some way imo . Mostly you schould use Meta combined with Demon Soul for the most benefit.

To reach that goal, sacrificing haste is the way to do and we lose the focus of getting faster Meta. The only other way is to buff only every 2nd meta with demon soul, dunno if that will be better.

Imo MWC gives us a much stronger meta every 2 min, combined with all of our CDs.

[Harsesis]

What Hystify said about the shards plus shadow ward can absorb a large chunk of a tick as well.

[Jessicka]

Arcane mages? Current trend of guilds giving their first legendaries to arcane mages first?

Verifyable source? Also, how was it doing more damage since long before World First Dragonwrath? If anything Dragonwrath has allowed Demo to pull ahead of Elemental Shaman, Rogues and SPriests - classes who wont have been prioritised for the staff.

Fury warriors? Recklessness 5min CD? Baleroc 25H ~6min fight?
MM hunters? Rapid fire 5min CD? Baleroc 25H ~6min fight?

5 Min cooldowns hmm... Why does Ret still aparently suck so very, very badly on this fight then?

Demo locks slipping to middle of the charts? 3/3 Demonic embrace + Glyphed soul link = one of the most efficient shard soakers = more movement = DPS loss?

SPriests are easily the best soakers and have no such issues.

Go for a full haste-centric build.
Use NF/(H) with DMC:V instead of MWC.
Pop meta off CD due to massive impending doom procs.
Profit?????????

If you're not convinced that this is a viable way to play demo, feel free to sim this profile in simcraft:

This is the T12H profile, modified to pop meta off CD and using Heroic Necromantic Focus instead of Moonwell Chalice. And also the gear reforges were modified to prioritise haste over mastery. Final gear amounts are 2.1k haste, 1.6k mastery and 900 crit. 0.01% off hit cap.

Sure, I'll profile it, but the way I'm playing right now is scoring me rankings on every fight I've done. It works. Furthermore, if I was in a more serious guild, it would be very hard to justify playing that way; although it probably is what Blizzard had in mind in making the spec, it's still not optimal and in this position you're looking at taking a spec that's barely competative and not using it to it's potential and rightly or wrongly, generally a lot of people aren't going to have that choice.

[Hystify]

5 Min cooldowns hmm... Why does Ret still aparently suck so very, very badly on this fight then?

Because their DPS potential is already so low and having GoAK which pales in comparison to Reck/RF wouldn't help much? And if you're referring to ret's performance on charts, its obvious that competitive guilds wouldn't bring many ret pallies due to these obvious reasons?

SPriests are easily the best soakers and have no such issues.

Well, maybe I missed out a point. The way most guilds are handling the Baleroc fight on Heroic nowadays is such that you pretty much won't have the luxury to be in melee range all the time. That's another reason for the decline.

Sure, I'll profile it

I wanted to give you the benefit of doubt that you actually did, but...

looking at taking a spec that's barely competative

How is it barely competitive when it's still ~100dps higher than the affliction sim, and the dps graph is similar to affliction's? (only a huge spike at the start with higher constant dmg throughout the fight compared to an MWC-mastery demo build, which has lower dps during non-CD phases but has higher spikes during Meta).

the way I'm playing right now is scoring me rankings on every fight I've done

When you say every fight, do you mean only Beth'tilac, Rhyolith and Argaloth(???), all on normal? (Source: http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/...;tar/Jessicka/) Oh wait, I just armoried you, and realized you're at 4/7 normal modes. So I can safely presume that every fight is an overstatement here?

The bottomline is, I've been reading through this thread, and I noticed you were pretty much unhappy with the current state of demo as a spec per se, if you don't mind me quoting again, you said:

MWC fundamentally dumbs them down by reducing it to a 2 minute cooldown spec

And yeah, I totally agree with you on that. In order to make demo output dps to its maximum potential, no doubt using MWC with a mastery-centric build is the way to go. It is also my preferred playstyle due to the on-demand burst dps that feels invaluable on fights with burn phases like Rhyolith HC, Beth HC, Alysrazor HC and also for Ragnaros' P3 as well.

And so I offered you another way to play demo that's still even ahead of affliction's results when simmed. It's like the best of both worlds, you can play as demo, pull great dps (albeit slightly lower than a mastery build) but still higher than affliction, you still provide the 10% SP buff, and you still maintain the on demand AoE and burst (again, lower than the mastery build).

Honestly I now have no idea what are your opinions on the spec, because you pretty much dislike the fact that demo has been reduced to a 2min CD spec due to MWC. But at the same time, you seem to still like the fact that this playstyle that you abhor allows you to rank on every fight. Somehow it just seems totally contradicting.

Anyway, all those aside, my aim was just to show that there are alternative ways to play demo, and the varying playstyle isn't as bad as one would have thought. If you don't want your spec to be slave to a trinket, like how some people feel it is, you actually DO have a choice.

[bmillz1341]

Your guild has a destro lock doing 11k on Baleroc....ick. Anyways, unless you actually have some experience with serious progression in Firelands hard modes, it makes it very difficult to listen to your complaints or advice for that matter. Its clear that you have a very good idea what you're doing, but the rest of that crew...

[Jessicka]

Your guild has a destro lock doing 11k on Baleroc....ick. Anyways, unless you actually have some experience with serious progression in Firelands hard modes, it makes it very difficult to listen to your complaints or advice for that matter. Its clear that you have a very good idea what you're doing, but the rest of that crew...

My guild ran 25s until late in T11 where we were as progressed as any other on the realm at that point; but due to an inability to recruit and retain members half the guild broke off to form a 10 man who are now 6/7HM. I didn't go with them because well, guild splits are never a clean and tidy affair; who didn't go there by and large quit raiding or quit the game entirely. Even I moved guild briefly but I wasn't enjoying myself there so I came back to where friends were, we took something of a break from serious raiding to rebuild and refocus on what we wanted. Only in the past month or so have we really got ourselves together although we could probably do with a couple more bodies (that Destro lock is a social member). Sure, I may be 4/7N, but I've ranked on each and every one of those because I know my class, and I've kept up on what's best for each encounter as I approach it.

Anyway, all those aside, my aim was just to show that there are alternative ways to play demo, and the varying playstyle isn't as bad as one would have thought. If you don't want your spec to be slave to a trinket, like how some people feel it is, you actually DO have a choice.

And that's great, I appreciate that. The problem isn't that that isn't viable, the problem is this: Demonology using the "optimal" setup is just about viable for most encounters, and only competative for a couple, but taking anything else will be perceived by a RL or GL as being sub-optimal, even if it's just 100DPS less, and well, sub-optimal is sub-optimal especially when a spec is only considered viable rather than truly competative - and that choice ultimately then goes out the window for people under that impression and that's the point I was getting at. Once our Boomkin, Mage and whoever else wanted the NF get theirs, if another drops I might just pick it up to try it because that profile is very much more the way I'd like to play the spec. Honestly, if it is that close, it's pretty likely that, like SBAff Vs DLAff, it might even work out better thanks to working smoother mechanically: I was genuinely surprised by how much SBAff really pulled ahead once DLAff got nerfed; it clearly was not a gear thing.

[koltara]

I just compared my own lock with

Haste/Build with normal NF and Mastery/Build with normal NF, both are about 30,2k simmed with my gear.

Not using MWC leads to a loss of 1k dps.

[Brauhm]

I don't think people understand that demonology is doing just as much damage as affliction in non MWC gear. Its pulling MUCH higher than it with MWC, almost 1k additional dps. Now what a lot of people don't understand is that Demonology is very VERY movement dependent. If you have to move during Metamorph, its a HUGE chunk of damage gone. You need every second. Which is why, for movement fights, Demonology falls under affliction. Affliction is the best over all, but for single target, staying still, demonology is best both with and without MWC.

[Jessicka]

It is a mistake. I've not exactly done vigourous testing, but it's seems apparent that the Infernal does not triple dip in the way the Doomguard does.

[Brauhm]

It is a mistake. I've not exactly done vigourous testing, but it's seems apparent that the Infernal does not triple dip in the way the Doomguard does.

Doomguard got the triple mastery buff when they buffed its damage by 50% if I'm not mistaken.

[Harsesis]

Once our Boomkin, Mage and whoever else wanted the NF get theirs, if another drops I might just pick it up to try it because that profile is very much more the way I'd like to play the spec.

I guess it's a good thing that NF only stacks by dot tick which arcane mages (the spec that wants mastery) don't have. One less person to wait for. Also DMC:V sims higher than even Heroic NF so you might want to look into that if you haven't already.