Idea for Heroic/Normal raid design next Expansion

[Scoobydew]

This is all completely hypothetical, based on what I believe would help improve the current raid situation.

Edit: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3123313475#1 (Link to topic on official forums)

With the release of the 4th expansion:
-Attunements returned
-----Reputation to unlock BoA keys for Heroics from Normals.
-----Quests to kill the final bosses on Heroic/Normal of the raids.
-----Quests are repeatable, however the keys could be learned, and BoA much like the Lil'Tarecgosa pet where even after learning it, the "pattern" stays in your bags where you can send it off to other toons.

-T14/T15 released with the expansion, allowing true casual "progression" to occur where you finish one raid, and have the opportunity, but perhaps not the gear to move on to the next raid.

-Upon completion of T14, a quest will be completed that unlocks T15 Normal as well as T14 Heroic.
-T15 Heroic can ONLY be unlocked by completing the T14 Heroic modes, and the quests that accompany them.
-T16 Normals unlocked via completion of T15 normals, T16 Heroics unlocked via completion of T15 Heroics, etc.
-T14 Heroic will have higher ilvl gear than T15 normal.

Example ilvl on gear:

T14 Normal: 533 T14 Heroic: 560
T15 Normal: 552 T15 Heroic: 579
T16 Normal: 571 T16 Heroic: 598


In conclusion, this would create a progression path that takes you from Heroic modes to Heroic modes, and Normal modes to Normal modes instead of Normal -> Heroic -> Normal -> Heroic. MOST IMPORTANTLY, there will be less burnout from guild members. If you're working on Normal Modes, you just playing as you are now. However, if you're working on Heroic modes, the normal mode gear is now worse than the previous tier's Heroics, so you can continue to work on the Heroics until the end of the week without killing the same normal mode boss over and over and over.


TL;DR

Next expansion Attunements, Heroics and Normal raids have completely different progression paths instead of intermingled, less burnt out members in Heroic guilds.

[Deleted]

seems good to me 8/10

[Whisperawr]

I was thinking about most of this today. A lot of it was the Burning Crusade model, which is great. I like it.

The only thing negative about it is the item level on gear. The t14 heroic set would actually have an entirely different item level than the t15 set. And with each tier is supposed to be better gear. I mean I guess it could work considering it's a completely different progression path.

[Bruttos]

Well ... maybe not new players, but old players will remember something like that for sure, i mean, the attunement path to unlock Black Temple, and i do remember also that Blizz said they would remove attunements and they would not come back.

I do think that attunements make the game better, but it will never come back, Blizz want more ppl to play WoW, and that means they want all content to be accessible for all players, not raiders only, but casual ppl.



Ps.: Sry for the "bad" english, thats not my main language.

[Gradywhite]

It's like the BC model but more refined and put in terms of the game today. One of the problems they said with attunements before was that it was so hard to do that alts and such would never complete it, but these are more reasonable and acceptable, and allow a real flow of progression. It also fixes the problems of hardcore guilds having to cycle through the normal mode content before the heroic mode. This way, they can run in and go from heroic --> heroic after the first tier, which solves another problem that Blizzard was having.

I'd recommend posting this to the official website for some more exposure, as I think it sounds really good =)

---------- Post added 2011-09-04 at 01:43 PM ----------

I do think that attunements make the game better, but it will never come back, Blizz want more ppl to play WoW, and that means they want all content to be accessible for all players, not raiders only, but casual ppl.

But coupled with the new raid finder, it will be much easier for the casual players to complete their attunements, as there will most likely always be groups running the old content. This makes it much easier for new players/alts to get up to the current level of raiding. One of Blizzard's problems with the old model was that it was too hard for a new player to get to the current content because they had to progress through every raid instance since the expansion launched, but since those raids will be more accessible, it's a much easier task to get attuned than it used to be, meaning it's not *that* much to ask of new players compared to what it used to be.

[CrossKeeper]

I like where you are going with this, but I have some questions. Are all three going to be available at once? If not it really is not that different from what we have now.

If you release all 3 at once high end guilds will still get through it all pretty fast and then the complaints will come pouring in when there is nothing new for 8-12 months. On the other hand if they do put out 3 full raids every 6 months or so the casuals are going to fall so far behind it would be almost silly.

Just my initial reactions. Don't get me wrong I like it...just worry about too much at a time coming out at a time or not enough.

[Sanadoz]

Are these guild-wide attunements or per player? Imagine how annoying it's going to be if you are forced to only do next Tier Heroics with only 25 people instead of your full roster. I think it should be a guild attunement.

Also the only problem I see with this is that when Blizzard designs a boss to be insanely difficult like Heroic Ragnaros, it could cause some problems with burnout because now all the guilds that do Heroics (6/7 HM guilds...they aren't bad but aren't amazing) can't do the next set of Heroic modes until they kill him. Gear will only help so much on a particular fight if you can't execute some of the mechanics correctly.

All in all, this is a pretty solid suggestion. Would actually make it feel like there is a sense of progression again, which the PvE scene desperately needs.

[Scoobydew]

I like where you are going with this, but I have some questions. Are all three going to be available at once? If not it really is not that different from what we have now.

I'd imagine it following the same model that BC followed. 2 Introductory tiers (14 and 15), and a final tier released towards the end (t16)

Are these guild-wide attunements or per player? Imagine how annoying it's going to be if you are forced to only do next Tier Heroics with only 25 people instead of your full roster. I think it should be a guild attunement.

Also the only problem I see with this is that when Blizzard designs a boss to be insanely difficult like Heroic Ragnaros, it could cause some problems with burnout because now all the guilds that do Heroics (6/7 HM guilds...they aren't bad but aren't amazing) can't do the next set of Heroic modes until they kill him. Gear will only help so much on a particular fight if you can't execute some of the mechanics correctly.

All in all, this is a pretty solid suggestion. Would actually make it feel like there is a sense of progression again, which the PvE scene desperately needs.

Attunement could go either way, whether it's personal or guild wide. My only real comment on that is, if you are a part of the kill that unlocks the attunement, your guild get's the attunement as well as you individually. Then, if at some point you move to a more casual guild that hasn't killed that boss yet, you still hold your personal attunement, but the guild that you move to doesn't get it. And vica verca if you weren't a part of the kill and move to a more casual guild, then you lose your attunement as well.

Basically if you were a part of the kill, the attunement is with you forever. If you weren't a part of the kill, the attunement is only with you as long as you're a part of the guild.

As for Heroic rag, that's just a tough situation. Maybe particular bosses would be looked at differently in the Heroic spectrum when it comes to attunements. Much like Sinestra is an "optional" boss, Cho'gall and Nefarian would be more so considered the attumenement requirements. Potentially similar to Rag, where the "Glory of the Firelands Raider" achievement which can be earned without a Heroic Rag kill.

[Nangz]

I have always thought that the BC model of multiple tiers being introduced at once was much better for progression. It left progression up to the player instead of up to "whenever blizzard puts out the content...."


I also think that attunements are something to be used sparingly. I thought that the BC model again was perfect for this. Attunements for karazhan and black temple/hyjal were perfectly done, in today's modern raiding however, if no attunements were present, people would gear of the entry level raid and head straight to the final one. Thus is a reason for attunements.

Although, putting attunements for every raid is pointless! You need to attune when its right to attune. I'll use the BC model again. Attunements were proper in BC except attunement into SSC and TK was unnecessary. Very few, even top guilds, would have gone from heroics to TK and skip karazhan, gruuls and mag's. Even if they had tried, the gear difference is enough of attunement to prevent this.

Basically, attunements and gear based attuenments need to happen but they need to alternate between tiers.

Example of how Wotlk attunements should have gone.

All raids are considered normal mode
Normal 5 mans ( no attunement as its entry level)
t7 raids ( attunement from quest) ( quest items come from normal 5 mans)
t8 raids ( no attunement, gear acts as gate)
t9 raids ( attunement from quest) (quest items come from t8 raids)
t10 raids ( no attunement, gear acts as gate)

Why is this better? It is unreasonable for even the top guilds to have gone from normal 5 mans in wrath to trying to kill t8 raids and to totally skip tier 7. Yes, I know the guild in wotlk who killed most of t10 in blues is a reason why this theory fails but i'll get to that.

Attunements also need to be player specific but it requires a majority of a raid in order to open the instance. Thus you don't need to have all 25 people attuned but just 13. Why? Player specific ones suck, it forces people to sometimes kill really old content to move forward. Guild or ( one person kills a boss and all can go through) is also bad. Why? Because that would completely break the attunement system as it would allow some groups to potentially "skip" tiers. ( Edit: I do like the idea above of guild AND player attunements where it allows for pugging/guild changing and it works for a guild all at once. However, a 10 man kill shouldn't provide attunement for a 25 man group. Makes no sense).

Normal vs heroic:

Lets take the two parts it takes to kill a boss.

Skill: Without skill you're just a pile of gear. Skill includes coordination and personal finesse.

Gear: Without gear, its hard to kill anything due to mechanics of abilities and raw damage/healing/mitation.

Normal modes need to be designed around the idea that if you're capable of getting the gear, it shouldn't take a brain surgeon to kill the boss.

Heroics need to be designed for people who are more skilled. However, they still require better gear, as without better gear you'd have people "skipping" tiers like I discussed earlier.


There also needs to be a way for people to move from normal level raids to heroic level raids if they become better. ( and vice versa if they become worse).


I think that as a whole, in order for this to succeed gear must play a more important role than it does now. In wotlk it clearly was possible to skip a tier and kill the next one with lower level gear. This is clearly shown by the group who killed content wearing blues. Gear needs to play a role that without the gear, killing the content is impossible for a heroic level, and impossible for a normal level. You gear up, you kill the next level of content. Simple as that.

[CrossKeeper]

I think it would definitely would have to be fixed to your account as an achievement. Linking to guild has great potential to be exploited. Just think about the raid leader bringing in his/her gf/bf or buddy from school to the next tier of raiding and taking over your spot. Kinda like hey I worked to get the myself and the guild to that level why should someone else get the benefits.

A solution to this would be to make it so you could get the unlock on that toon once you reach a certain guild rep level...kinda like how the mounts are at exalted (even if you were not there for the actual kills). I would be okay with that kind of guild attunement. That would make it faster for someone to actually have done the kill and make it available to the casual after spending enough time working for the guild.

[Scoobydew]

@Nangz

Attunement quests don't need to be long or drawn out. Some could be, but definitely not all of them. Like you mentioned, in some cases gear checks can definitely be skipped by certain guilds, and because of this there really isn't any harm to say "Pick up this quest in Orgrimmar, Kill the last boss in BoT, come back to me and you can go to Firelands"

And as for moving up and down between Heroic Level raiding and Normal Level raiding, all you'd have to do is personally make the switch. Normal T14 would unlock Heroic T14. So as long as you can clear the first raid on normal, you always would have the option to go onto Heroics.

Let's say, however, during t16 two players in two separate guilds are looking to move. One of them is in a Heroic guild and the other is in a Normal guild. The person in the normal guild is going to need the gear to compete at t16 Heroic level, so most decent guilds will take that person through the previous heroics which are on well on farm already. If they decide not to take that person through previous heroics, then a guild based attunement system would be very handy.

[Deleted]

This... Sounds... Beutiful!

[a21fa7c67f26f6d49a20c2c51]

Can you explain how this makes the game more fun? I don't recall being particularly excited about cancelling Kael attempts because we had to go drag a recruit through Karazhan, Gruul, the trials, and Magtheridon. It was even worse when we were cancelling Illidan kills to slog through all of that crap and then through SSC/TK and Hyjal too.

I just don't see the benefit in further stratifying the raiding community. If you've got the skill to clear current content I don't see any reason to force you through easier/obsolete encounters. I can't help but feel like this is an attempt by the "middle tier" to insulate themselves form competition from below. Whether that's raiding guilds that want to protect their 'best guild on the server' status from some upstart, or middle-ranking DPS trying to limit the number of possible applicants for their raid spot.

I think the proposal stinks: it adds unnessecary complexity without any apparent benefit. It prevents players from playing with whom they want, in content they want to try. I think we don't need any more external limitations. While you can dream up some complex series of achievement and tracking to allow people to avoid the worst of TBC attunement grinding, I still don't see what it does to improve the game. Is Heroic Shannox somehow more fun if you've killed Sinestra?

If you want some sort of RP/Lore/Reward for doing old content (on top of what you already get in terms of gear/title/mounts): I'll support an optional "Hey, what's this instance all about" quest line. Karazhan/hyjal rep ring requiring the attunement chain was fine. Being allowed to zone in requiring that nonsense was not.

[Ryme]

I think I'd be very happy with this if it went through.

[Scoobydew]

@evn

If you're bringing someone into your raid who is a full 3 tier's behind, you're usually not looking to push current progression on a boss with that person. Taking them through old raids to get geared for your current content is much more logical to begin with.

Aside from that, guild attunements like has been mentioned or raid attunements would prevent requiring taking people through old content. If you've progressed through heroic content, you know how frustrating it can be to kill a few bosses on heroic, then grind the rest out on normal each week. This would create a steady progression path that doesn't include grinding out normal mode bosses every week for 6 months.

[Baelic]

Attunement doesn't have to be long, and it certainly doesn't have to be tedious.

What I would surely like from Atunements would be the extra lore/story that they'd potentially add, Cause seriously why the fuck are we going into BWD/BoT other than to kill Nef/Cho'Gall, granted BoT is a bit more obvious IF you did most of the quests in the Twilight Highlands. Just make it a few short, relatively simple quests (heck, you can even have it with mobs that sample boss mechanics!) that help tell the story of WHY you're going into said dungeon/raid.

Heck, you could even try progressional attunements. Give raiders access to the first few bosses and after beating them, you'd then access the next set (wether this be through handing in a quest or getting a "key" I don't care).

What was also nice about T4 and 5 in BC was that all the gear was spread amongst a bunch of Raids, sure in most cases there weren't many bosses in some raids but it still gave you variety in what you could do (Heck, Wrath had more variety). And do this with EVERY raid tier, not just the first one (*cough* Ulduar *cough*)

[a21fa7c67f26f6d49a20c2c51]

If you're bringing someone into your raid who is a full 3 tier's behind, you're usually not looking to push current progression on a boss with that person.

Yes, we are. They might not be able to perform at a level nessecary for heroic rag first kill, but I can certally drag a couple of dead-weight people through 6/7 heroic firelands without any effort. After you've beaten an encounter 2 or 3 times there's no challenge in doing it short handed: you'll have farmed enough gear to trivialize every future kill.

We did through ICC too: who cares if you're in Tier 7 if you're competent, we'll just throw heroic loot at you while we clear to Lich king -- after almost a year of farming it's all going to be shards anway. That's not even a recent trend: we were doing it in classic too. Why waste time in molten core when you could just bring them through AQ40 and get them their Tier set and a fair collection of 'offset' pieces on the way to c'thun? Same with sunwell: it got to the point where we didn't care if your shaman was in greens provided they could drop totems and cast bloodlust for the hunters. It doesn't take long before you can easily 24 man an encounter -- at that point it makes absolutely no sense to waste time in trivial content for the benefit of an trial/recruit/friend. It's not like they're joining a progression guild because they're super excited to do last years dungeons.

Taking them through old raids to get geared for your current content is much more logical to begin with.

No, it's a waste of time. I want to raid about 9 hours a week (give or take). If my goal is to push through content that is challenging and relevent then that means spending as little time "farming gear" in obsolete / trivial content as possible. If I can reroll a warlock and do 30k DPS in greens while expertly negotiating world in flames, why shouldn't I be allowed to do heroic ragnaros? What benefit is there to me personally, or to my guild by being forced to back to kill halfus -> Sinestra?

Aside from that, guild attunements like has been mentioned or raid attunements would prevent requiring taking people through old content. If you've progressed through heroic content, you know how frustrating it can be to kill a few bosses on heroic, then grind the rest out on normal each week. This would create a steady progression path that doesn't include grinding out normal mode bosses every week for 6 months.

What's stopping my guild from just saying "screw normal mode farming" after the first week under the current system? Unless I'm not understanding the proposal here, it seems like all that's being proposed it to replace "farm Tier 12 nromal mode to gear recruits because you you're only 3/7 heroic" with "farm Tier 11 heroic modes to gear your recruits before you even think about going to firelands". Thanks, but no thanks: I've had my fill of those places when they were relevent.

In our 10m alt run we don't have anybody to collect embers for a legendary. The first one is going to a mage and after that we're out of casters (the only other ranged class is a hunter). Right now we're feeding embers to a disc priest because she's all we've got (and she plays a healer in the main run so she's not getting two). If anybody said "Hey, I'll reroll a warlock if I can get the staff" they'd be welcome to it.
Being forced to blow the 2 hours a week we schedule for alts on last tiers content just isnt' going to happen.

I saw a proposal to "unlock" guild attunement for a new member at a certain rep level: I don't see how that helps the situation. "Hi, welcome to our guild. We'll get you in for Rag as soon as you grind out 30 random dungeons to your guild rep up -- see you next month." As soon as you drop the rep requirement it effectively becomes "you're elegible for any content the guild is working on by nature of being in the guild" which is basically what we have now. The only thing that really changes is the additional barrier to starting a new guild.

Suppose you were on the second best horde guild on my server (you went 10/13), then you join my guild (13/13 so you get 'guild attunement' and we take you through 6/7 heroic). Then when tier 13 comes out you decide to start your own guild (maybe the rest of us decide to quit raiding).

You can round up people -- but even though you're in full 391 gear and have a legendary staff, you can't start on heroic Tier 13 until you fist stomp through Tier 11, T11 heroic, and T12 heroic with your new guild. What benefit is there to forcing new guilds to waste 3 lockouts on content they out gear?

• Is it middling guilds trying to defend "second best horde guild on the server" by preventing the third best guild from catching up at the start of the new tier?
• Is it middling players trying to defend their raid spot by making additional barriers to entry -- "Yeah we could recruit that other mage but he's not attuned"?
• Is it players who like pugging old content trying to get "skilled" raiders out of their alt heroic firelands runs and into pug BOT/BWD because most guilds didn't bother going 13/13 on alts?
• Are they just trying to force me through quests because somehow after 7 years of play this time I'll finally enjoy questing or farming old content instead of doing something new?
• Is it PvP players annoyed that I log in to raid and otherwise never leave the city so they can't gank me?

I'm just not seeing how my experience would be improved by havng some mandatory hoop to jump, especially one that that requires clearing obsolete content before I can get caught up to current stuff.

If you want a to bring back attunements you can mostly solo: sure, I'm all for that. Heck, have a quest to clear through a dungeon or something for RP reasons: fine. If it's just a matter of wanting me to know why I'm killing Sinestra: you can cover that through in-game scripted events and (skipable) cinematics). Sunwell did an amazing job of tying the story together from Kalecgos to Kil'jaeden and I didn't need any stupid quests or rep grinding to get what was going on there.

As soon as your attunement requires me to waste the time of 24 people by sending them to content they have no business in: I'm not interested. Even the Trials of the Naaru back in 2.0 were incredibly annoying prior to the heroic nerf/gear buff and I'd fight you on those. If it's anything that can't be done by somebody who just hit level cap in an hour or so, I think its an unnessecary burden.

[Scoobydew]

@evn

Like Sanadoz was saying, and I commented on, if you're guild went 13/13 in t11, then as a guild you've completed the "attunement" or achievement, then when you move onto T12 you can immediately start heroics because the gear you'll have from T11 heroics will be better than the T12 normals. Anyone you recruit is going to get that T11 finished attunement, so you can just throw T12 Heroic gear at them.

It seems to me that your biggest issue with this is having to take people through old content. However what's been talked about since the 7th post was having a guild based attunement. That way, if your guild is at a point in content where they can easily carry someone who's undergeared, then they don't need to take that person through the old content unless they want to.