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  1. #21
    haste..cap? That is your problem, haste is still the best stat, at worse it drops to about even with mastery for a short time after 30% but it is foolish to reforge to mastery and if you are talking about the global cooldown cap, no you will still do more damage. I can burst 40k+ dps with beserking+bloodlust at the start of fights in 25 man normals. wait for procs + Volcanic pot+beserking+refresh dots+archangel, etc is amazing. Well timed beserkings add several k dps for me even averaged out over a boss fight. Specially for bosses with burn phases like alysrazor or...every other boss to some extent. I'm sure with beserking +haste buffs +bloodlust my dots alone are pulling a good 100k+ dps when she is down. At least During beserking I Pull about 230k+ dps vs about 200k after it wears off and before my other buffs do. Remember haste buffs multiply with each other, so the more different haste buffs you have, the more benefit each one gives.

    Beserking is king if used right by far. Goblin lets you hit haste marks easier, but keep stacking haste. Mastery isn't bad but don't prioritize it. Haste is a much more robust stat from fight to fight.

    So yeah, go goblin if you don't think you can handle the added complication of timing beserking several times a fight, you will do fine. If you want maximum dps and flexibility of on call burst go troll.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimedic View Post
    haste..cap? That is your problem, haste is still the best stat, at worse it drops to about even with mastery for a short time after 30% but it is foolish to reforge to mastery and if you are talking about the global cooldown cap, no you will still do more damage. I can burst 40k+ dps with beserking+bloodlust at the start of fights in 25 man normals. wait for procs + Volcanic pot+beserking+refresh dots+archangel, etc is amazing. Well timed beserkings add several k dps for me even averaged out over a boss fight. Specially for bosses with burn phases like alysrazor or...every other boss to some extent. I'm sure with beserking +haste buffs +bloodlust my dots alone are pulling a good 100k+ dps when she is down. At least During beserking I Pull about 230k+ dps vs about 200k after it wears off and before my other buffs do. Remember haste buffs multiply with each other, so the more different haste buffs you have, the more benefit each one gives.

    Beserking is king if used right by far. Goblin lets you hit haste marks easier, but keep stacking haste. Mastery isn't bad but don't prioritize it. Haste is a much more robust stat from fight to fight.

    So yeah, go goblin if you don't think you can handle the added complication of timing beserking several times a fight, you will do fine. If you want maximum dps and flexibility of on call burst go troll.
    Let's see some logs, because the math shows its definitely not a few k dps increase as you claim it to be.

  3. #23
    Math done by simulators is based on theoretical fights with averages and fake movement timings, not actual fights with an intelligent being timing the berserking for the absolute best time for maximum effect.

    But again, goblin isn't bad, definitely better than undead, blood elf or...tauren. And if you use beserking randomly or poorly goblin is as good or better. Just troll can be amazing if done well.

  4. #24
    I would pick Goblin any day of the week. The rocket jump is invaluable and 1% haste is even nicer. If you've ever been an engineer or had some kind of sprint buff, you'd understand why it is so damn valuable in PvE.

    On a fight like Baleroc, Troll might be best but even in a fight like that Rocket Jump can help.

  5. #25
    Fluffy Kitten Ultima's Avatar
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    Had to be Goblin. 1% Haste + Rocket Jump.

    I saw mention of a Haste cap. You won't get it, though if you wear full Tier 13 Heroic and gem Haste instead of Intellect, you might reach a point where Mastery and Crit can almost be on par with Haste.
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimedic View Post
    Math done by simulators is based on theoretical fights with averages and fake movement timings, not actual fights with an intelligent being timing the berserking for the absolute best time for maximum effect.
    Timing is the problem with "intelligent being timing". When you wait for that for that "absolute best time", you are losing dps vs. the flat 1% buff. There are many factors to consider:
    -how long the fight lasts
    -errors in activating the berserk early/late
    -forgetting to activate berserk
    -how long between fights
    -what movement is required
    -etc.

    And there is the other aspect of berserk, as a player if you are doing berserk that means you are not doing something else. Is that other thing noticing where you should stand? What your next spell should be? Even though it is instant cast, you are mentally having to schedule it (therefore not free).

  7. #27
    From a theorycrafting PoV, Goblin's 1% haste is the best. But honestly... As undead, you look more badass... and when you look BADASS, you play BADASS!
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  8. #28
    Fluffy Kitten Ultima's Avatar
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    From a theorycrafting PoV, Troll's Berserking gives the highest DPS. However, Goblin's steady 1% along with the ability to traverse a short distance should make it the bestoverall.
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by rboa View Post
    Timing is the problem with "intelligent being timing". When you wait for that for that "absolute best time", you are losing dps vs. the flat 1% buff. There are many factors to consider:
    -how long the fight lasts
    -errors in activating the berserk early/late
    -forgetting to activate berserk
    -how long between fights
    -what movement is required
    -etc.

    And there is the other aspect of berserk, as a player if you are doing berserk that means you are not doing something else. Is that other thing noticing where you should stand? What your next spell should be? Even though it is instant cast, you are mentally having to schedule it (therefore not free).
    Again, why I said if done right. If done right you consider all of that and beserking doesn't take a global cooldown or anything so it doesn't distract from doing anything else unless you can't do very many things at the same time. If you wait too long you have failed the intelligent being test If you are someone that forgets to use cooldowns or that gets distracted by changes to your basic dps rotation and stands in fire then you will do a lot better with the easy mode race of goblin because there is no way you could multi-task enough to track all of your procs and the fight mechanics to time beserking perfectly.

    However, if you are up for the challenge, beserking is a powerful tool.

    edit - As far as waiting, dont forget beserking gives an average of 1.6 haste with a minimum of 1.33 if used on cooldown. You would have to delay quite a bit to drop the effectiveness of beserking below 1% and many fight lengths give timings that make the simple average haste from beserking close to 2%. Specially since you know how long fights usually take you would know how long you can delay for a proc or cooldown without losing a beserking for the fight. If on a baleroc style fight you know you would normally use beserking at 15 second and 3:15 with the boss dying before any chance of a third beserk but taking over 5 minutes to kill you can delay all you want for proc/cooldown timings.
    Last edited by Archimedic; 2011-09-09 at 08:12 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima View Post
    Had to be Goblin. 1% Haste + Rocket Jump.

    I saw mention of a Haste cap. You won't get it, though if you wear full Tier 13 Heroic and gem Haste instead of Intellect, you might reach a point where Mastery and Crit can almost be on par with Haste.
    I'm pretty sure people are talking about the seccond VT haste cap as the "real" haste cap is somewhere around 4500 haste rating, nothing that we will reach in this expansion for sure
    And haste will never be better than int, don't give the kids ideas now :<

    ---------- Post added 2011-09-09 at 08:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimedic View Post
    edit - As far as waiting, dont forget beserking gives an average of 1.6 haste with a minimum of 1.33 if used on cooldown. You would have to delay quite a bit to drop the effectiveness of beserking below 1% and many fight lengths give timings that make the simple average haste from beserking close to 2%. Specially since you know how long fights usually take you would know how long you can delay for a proc or cooldown without losing a beserking for the fight. If on a baleroc style fight you know you would normally use beserking at 15 second and 3:15 with the boss dying before any chance of a third beserk but taking over 5 minutes to kill you can delay all you want for proc/cooldown timings.
    A fight lasting anything between 3.5 and 5 minutes makes Berserking loose in comparison to goblin racial though.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Ansible View Post
    From a theorycrafting PoV, Goblin's 1% haste is the best. But honestly... As undead, you look more badass... and when you look BADASS, you play BADASS!
    Highfive man!

    But yea goblin or troll. Was goblin for a while, but the DPS wasn't significant higher at all really. Changed back to UD as goblins/ Trolls just graphically don't do it for me.

  12. #32
    Math time!

    So troll passive is Berserking, which is a 3 minute CD:
    Increases your attack and casting speed by 20% for 10 sec.
    20% haste is (128.125 rating per 1%) 2565.5 haste rating for 10 seconds every 180 seconds if cast on CD. So let's assign variables.

    B = Berserking = 2565.5 rating
    D = Duration = 10 seconds
    Cd = Cooldown = 180 seconds
    AR = Average rating = ______ rating
    HR = Rating for 1% Haste = 128.125
    AH = Average Haste = ______ %

    So the formulae are
    B * D/Cd = AR
    AR/HR = AH

    So then it's

    2565.5 * (10/180) = 142.36111 rating
    142.36111/128.125 = 1.1111%

    Averaged out, that'd be 142.36111 haste rating, which is indeed 1.1111% haste.

    If it's cast on CD.

    Let's work backwards to see how much spare time you have to cast it before it's on par with the 1% haste goblins get. Berserking and Duration do not change, only the "cooldown" does, or in this case, how often you cast it.

    B * D/Cd = 128.125

    2565.5 * 10/Cd = 128.125
    2565.5*10/128.125 = Cd
    200.234146 seconds = Cd

    Since the original Cd was 180 seconds, that's 20.234146 seconds to spare. As long as you cast within 20 seconds of the CD, Berserking is equal or better than the 1% passive haste from Goblins. That grace period is something we'd be used to (Int/ES procs and refreshing, Mastery procs and MB).

    That said, it does not equal 1% haste. If you're past the 30% mark, it gives you a valuable tool to use beyond stacking haste, but if you're at 29%, it will not compensate for the DPS bump from meeting the mark. Below 29% haste, you're still gearing up; at 29% and higher, it becomes a toss up between the two. Goblin would be a better choice (unless you get choice gear and you're progression) to get 30%. After 30%, troll would be better as long as you cast it every 20seconds within the CD.

    It's a mix of variables, primarily gear, DI, and efficiency of use.
    Quote Originally Posted by Purpleisbetter View Post
    Power Torrent, Volcano and Theralion proc'ed, dots just refreshed. Everyone dies. Just a tank and a boss with around 200k hp. Everyone in vt yells "omg we failed omg omg" and you "don't worry amigos, my dots are steamrolling!". Boss dies while you'd say "Enjoy your loots" with a lot of purple awesomness spilling thru your voice. Just happend yesterday.

    Seriously, i thought i'd reroll warlock for 4.2, but that was the sign that i'm purple inside and i can't reroll. never.

  13. #33
    Zuziza:

    Your assumption counts with fight that last exactly as long as the CD on berserk does. Having a fight that ends bad in comparison to berserking will decrease it's efficensy alot.

    As you never know how long they will last Goblin is usually the better pick.

  14. #34
    Troll, end of discussion. Berserking is so much better than the 1% static Haste that it's not even worth arguing about. Yeah the 1% Haste makes it easier to reach the breakpoints for VT and DP 2nd tick, but you will reach that anyway if you are raiding anything remotely close to current content.

    There are sooooo many ways to abuse Berserking and to chain it on top of your other CDs and proccs, that you would have to be REALLY terrible for Goblin to be a better choice (in which case, you wouldn't care one bit about racials anyway). The fact that you can use Berserking together with all your other CDs, is what makes it so ridiculously OP.

    Just because it ends up being more haste and you can use it with buffs doesn't mean it is better. You aren't adding in the bonus mastery you can get with goblin, and also that if you are below the haste cap before berserking, you will most likely do less damage in the end.
    This is only true if you don't have DI. If you have DI, just stacking more Haste is better than more Mastery.

    But yeah, on topic - Horde PvE racials, Shadow Priest:

    Troll >>> Goblin > Belf > Tauren/Undead (Belf is ranked higher just because of Arcane Torrent. Mana MIGHT be an issue on fights where you are doing crazy multidotting, AoEing and cancelling loads of MFs (none in current content, but yeah...)
    Last edited by ThrashMetalFtw; 2011-09-09 at 09:17 PM.
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by eErike View Post

    A fight lasting anything between 3.5 and 5 minutes makes Berserking loose in comparison to goblin racial though.
    Actually 3.5 is PERFECT timing for beserking...you get 2 uses out of it, one at ~10-15 seconds and one at 3:10-3:15, both with archangel up and with 20 seconds /210 seconds of haste for 1.9 haste average. 5 minutes gives you a 1.33 haste average. Any fight that ends ~3.5 or 6.5 or 9.5 minutes gives you really high average haste from beserking

    ---------- Post added 2011-09-09 at 03:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eErike View Post
    Zuziza:

    Your assumption counts with fight that last exactly as long as the CD on berserk does. Having a fight that ends bad in comparison to berserking will decrease it's efficensy alot.

    As you never know how long they will last Goblin is usually the better pick.
    The assumption actually gives the WORST possible numbers for beserking, not the best as you suggest. A fight that ends at any other timing only gives better values for beserking.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimedic View Post
    Actually 3.5 is PERFECT timing for beserking...you get 2 uses out of it, one at ~10-15 seconds and one at 3:10-3:15, both with archangel up and with 20 seconds /210 seconds of haste for 1.9 haste average. 5 minutes gives you a 1.33 haste average. Any fight that ends ~3.5 or 6.5 or 9.5 minutes gives you really high average haste from beserking
    Yea, forgot that the cooldown doesn't start after the effect is over as I thought it did at first :>

    But yes, what I ment was that the time of the fight can change the value of Berserking by alot.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Proberly View Post
    I'd say that the on demand troll racial is probably to prefer over 1% haste, so troll as far as racials go. If you can't stand their goofy looks, and the fact that they look pretty shitty in gear, then goblin is a good second choise.
    Goblin 1% equals out to same dps increase overall troll racial only applies to cast speed and not dot ticks goblin is far superior to all races.

  18. #38
    goblin
    troll
    for dps

    undead for looks
    I am immortal, I cannot die
    I have inside me the blood of kings

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimedic View Post
    Again, why I said if done right. If done right you consider all of that and beserking doesn't take a global cooldown or anything so it doesn't distract from doing anything else unless you can't do very many things at the same time.
    If we buy your assertion that trolls have, by-far, the best PVE racial for a shadow priest then we'd expect to see them disproportianately represented among top-parsing priests. You used Alysrazor as an example of an encounter where Berserking was particularly strong so I check the top 10 races for shadow priests on 10 and 25-man heroic. Contrary to what I'd expect, the top most represented races were Worgen, Goblin, and Blood elf. If trolls are so clearly superior (by several thousands DPS as you initially claimed) why are they a minority race among top parsing priests?

    I suppose it's possible that players good enough to rank top-10 world-wide for their class on this encounter are uniquely bad at using a racial ability but that seems really unlikely. How do you account for this? Can you rpovide some sort of mathematically example where berserking is consistently the best racial for a raider? While I can dream up situations where berserking is particularly strong (heroic rag, phase 3) it's also not terribly difficult to find places were a goblin's rocket jump + haste racial is clearly superior (10m beth'tilac: spiderling duty). A several thousdand DPS gain for a $30 race change is a substantial claim: can you support it, and also explain why we don't see trolls as the top shadow priests parses if it's a 3-10% DPS advantage over other races?
    Last edited by evn; 2011-09-10 at 07:56 AM.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Milkshake86 View Post
    Goblin 1% equals out to same dps increase overall troll racial only applies to cast speed and not dot ticks goblin is far superior to all races.
    Wrong, wrong wrong. Berserking is haste, tooltips can be misleading. This is Blizzard afterall.
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