1. #1661
    The Lightbringer Skelington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shootyadead View Post
    I'm sorry but when did homophobic become homosexual? You did in fact put words in my mouth, as you did earlier in this very thread with Laurcus a few pages ago. You are in fact using your opinion over any fact that has been presented to you. And characters in a 12 episode anime probably do have depth and/or backstory, but how much of it do you really learn in 12 episodes? Everything you need to know to like/dislike the characters can in fact be taken with zero backstory, but why wouldn't you want to know about how the characters got to where they were?
    Homophobic implies a latent homosexual. Not to mention your question. And aside from that there's more between the lines that what you present at face value, whether you realize it or not. That's not putting words in someone's mouth. Either way, no he's not. And you still aren't providing any proof.
    the more I see the homophobic tendencies popping out of each line. Hiding something?
    It's almost as if you've forgotten.

    Well, if you watched anime you would understand. You don't need to learn how a character takes a shit, nor what his favorite food is, nor what how well his vision is, nor what color his socks were that one special christmas eve. You learn enough from a character in the show, and what isn't given leaves room for speculation and, more often than not, presents enough information for you to discern a character's story. Hell, Mami from Madoka Magica gained a cult following in three episodes and you can deduce her entire backstory and character from them.
    Last edited by Skelington; 2012-05-06 at 07:10 AM.

  2. #1662
    Mechagnome shootyadead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skelington View Post
    Homophobic implies a latent homosexual. Not to mention your question. And aside from that there's more between the lines that what you present at face value, whether you realize it or not. That's not putting words in someone's mouth. Either way, no he's not. And you still aren't providing any proof.

    It's almost as if you've forgotten.

    Well, if you watched more anime you would understand. You don't need to learn how a character takes a shit, nor what his favorite food is, nor what how well his vision is, nor what color his socks were that one christmas eve. You learn enough from a character in the show, and what isn't given leaves room for speculation and, more often than not, presents enough information for you to discern a character's story. Hell, Mami from Madoka Magica gained a cult following in three episodes and you can deduce her entire backstory and character from them.
    I'm done with you. You refuse to face reality. Enjoy being ignored.
    "I am the hope of the universe. I am the answer to all living things that cry out for peace. I am the protector of the innocent. I am the light in the darkness. I am truth. Ally to good! Nightmare to you!!!"

  3. #1663
    The Lightbringer Skelington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shootyadead View Post
    I'm done with you. You refuse to face reality. Enjoy being ignored.
    Oh! it has come to this! What has he done?! This ache in his heart! Oh, dagger! In eternal culmination doth ye suspend!

    You still haven't provided facts. He will be waiting. Forever... ;_;

  4. #1664
    Quote Originally Posted by Skelington View Post
    Oh! it has come to this! What has he done?! This ache in his heart! This torch in his soul! Oh, dagger! In eternal culmination doth ye suspend!

    You still haven't provided facts. He will be waiting. Forever... ;_;

    Theres no need to be upset...

  5. #1665
    Moderator Zoma's Avatar
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    All these comments about homosexuality, and not a single Zarbon or General Blue post. C'mon people.

  6. #1666
    Mechagnome shootyadead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoma View Post
    All these comments about homosexuality, and not a single Zarbon or General Blue post. C'mon people.
    I can't post vids here at work or I'd definitely throw up the TFS vid with Zarbon and Vegeta. Truly epic stuff.
    "I am the hope of the universe. I am the answer to all living things that cry out for peace. I am the protector of the innocent. I am the light in the darkness. I am truth. Ally to good! Nightmare to you!!!"

  7. #1667
    Quote Originally Posted by Jyubei View Post
    Current Timeline: When Trunks travels to this timeline, he warns the Z Fighters. They begin massive training over the next couple years. It can be assumed that because of this training and progressively getting stronger that Dr. Gero ( who stated himself that he was always monitoring them with his little machines ) was augmenting his Android's power to let them be more powerful than the current Z Fighters. Cell would have been more powerful as well if he were allowed to have been fully formed but they destroyed his embryo in this timeline.
    Major flaw here - Gero himself said that he was watching them up to fight with Frieza. At that point he thought he have got enough data, so he stopped watching them and started working on androids.

    The machines watching them after that point were controled by Gero's computer, which was busy creating main timeline Cell - and that's why I asked many pages back, how stronger the main timeline Cell would be.

  8. #1668
    Quote Originally Posted by rad586 View Post
    Major flaw here - Gero himself said that he was watching them up to fight with Frieza. At that point he thought he have got enough data, so he stopped watching them and started working on androids.

    The machines watching them after that point were controled by Gero's computer, which was busy creating main timeline Cell - and that's why I asked many pages back, how stronger the main timeline Cell would be.
    As I believe it, the computer wasn't only for Cell's development. It's just that the computer was doing work on Cell and both were located deep underneath the laboratory (most likely as a safety precaution so both Cell and the Computer would be intact). Dr. Gero assumed that the power of himself and Android 19 would be enough to defeat them so he most likely worked on that. He himself having abandoned Android 17 and 18's development at some undetermined time because they were too powerful to control, though them being too powerful would also fall into the same category of them with the Future Trunks timeline. However it's likely that the computer was continuously monitoring the Z Fighters and making changes to Androids 17 and 18 while they were asleep in their chambers. Non-manga wise, it is shown in the DBZ Movies that the Dr. Gero computer is capable of activating Androids in suspended animation as it did with 13, 14, 15.

    The one x-factor in the entire thing though is the randomness of Android 16. Out of the 3 known timelines in the Android/Cell Saga. Both Future Trunks and Cell did not recognize or have any data on Android 16. Android 16 is unique to the 3rd, Current Timeline only. I can only assume that Android 16 was a program implemented by Dr. Gero via suggestion of his computer due to the increased fighting prowess of the Z Fighters. Seeing as how Android 16 was more powerful than 17 and 18.

    Again it's all speculation because like you said, there are flaws in the ideas. Nothing is explicitly said by Akira Toriyama so we're left to our own thought processes to try to make sense of the situation. =/

  9. #1669
    Mechagnome shootyadead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rad586 View Post
    Major flaw here - Gero himself said that he was watching them up to fight with Frieza. At that point he thought he have got enough data, so he stopped watching them and started working on androids.

    The machines watching them after that point were controled by Gero's computer, which was busy creating main timeline Cell - and that's why I asked many pages back, how stronger the main timeline Cell would be.
    I'd still think that Gohan would have been able to beat Cell. By that point they all had only reached SSJ1 correct? So how much more powerful would Cell have really been? Enough to withstand SS2 Gohan? I dunno.
    "I am the hope of the universe. I am the answer to all living things that cry out for peace. I am the protector of the innocent. I am the light in the darkness. I am truth. Ally to good! Nightmare to you!!!"

  10. #1670
    Moderator Zoma's Avatar
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    On the subject of 16, in the the two Future timelines, Gero was probably killed before 16 had advanced to the stage he was in the main timeline. Alternatively, even if he was at the same stage of his creation in the Future timelines, 17 and 18 may not have noticed his container. While 13, 14 and 15 were connected to the computer, that doesn't mean all the Androids were. If 16 could only be awakened manually, and everyone who knew of his existence was dead, then he was just left inactive.

    Btw, in the DBZ Multiverse comic, Future Trunks finds the head and torso of 16 in the ruins of Gero's lab. Completely non-canon, but thought it was worth bringing up.

  11. #1671
    Epic! Duncanîdaho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jyubei View Post
    As I believe it, the computer wasn't only for Cell's development. It's just that the computer was doing work on Cell and both were located deep underneath the laboratory (most likely as a safety precaution so both Cell and the Computer would be intact). Dr. Gero assumed that the power of himself and Android 19 would be enough to defeat them so he most likely worked on that. He himself having abandoned Android 17 and 18's development at some undetermined time because they were too powerful to control, though them being too powerful would also fall into the same category of them with the Future Trunks timeline. However it's likely that the computer was continuously monitoring the Z Fighters and making changes to Androids 17 and 18 while they were asleep in their chambers. Non-manga wise, it is shown in the DBZ Movies that the Dr. Gero computer is capable of activating Androids in suspended animation as it did with 13, 14, 15.

    The one x-factor in the entire thing though is the randomness of Android 16. Out of the 3 known timelines in the Android/Cell Saga. Both Future Trunks and Cell did not recognize or have any data on Android 16. Android 16 is unique to the 3rd, Current Timeline only. I can only assume that Android 16 was a program implemented by Dr. Gero via suggestion of his computer due to the increased fighting prowess of the Z Fighters. Seeing as how Android 16 was more powerful than 17 and 18.

    Again it's all speculation because like you said, there are flaws in the ideas. Nothing is explicitly said by Akira Toriyama so we're left to our own thought processes to try to make sense of the situation. =/
    I watched the episode where 17 and 18 get woken up the other day just wanted to add a few things to what your saying. I was talking about that earlier in the thread.

    Gero in the episode said that after he woke up 17 and 18 the first time and they were rebellious he deactivated them. He then said he proceeded to augment them and make them more controllable. Another key thing he says is that he has also been working on 16 but his programming is still incomplete.

    Also when Gero is talking to 17 and 18 they comment on how he himself is an android now and not human. Meaning that when he woke then up the first time, He was still human. They also comment on how he went through with building 19, which means that he did not have 19 around yet when he woke them the first time. Augmenting himself and building 19 was his way of trying to avoid using the main androids because they rebelled the first time.

    The point where the main timeline and the 2 trunk's timeline's differ from eachother is when Gero first wakes the androids up. In the main timeline Trunks and Cell both coming back managed to change enough to get Gero through the first session. In the main timeline he gets them to sleep again, in the trunks timelines he is killed. This is why Trunks never meets Gero or 19. More importantly though, it explains 16. Gero was never around to work on 16 further in the two Trunks timelines and therefore was not even in a state where he could be woken up yet by the other androids. This is why 16 is unique to the main timeline.

    To add, I personally think what got Gero through waking them the first time in the main timeline is that he had more tech available thanks to Trunk's warnings. By Bulma's dad designing various tech for Vegeta because of the warning, Gero might have somehow learned of something he needed to know to turn off the androids better. He traded some of his secrets and tech for capsule corp tech. We know Bulma's dad has shared secrets with him in the past, that's how bulma knew about the lab in the main timeline but had no idea where it was in the Trunk's timelines. The trades didn't happen in Trunk's timeline, because Bulma's dad was not inspired by Vegeta(because he wasnt as inspired) or just simply didn't end up making the same tech or ideas that Gero required. Just a little thoery I have.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-06 at 07:23 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by rad586 View Post
    Major flaw here - Gero himself said that he was watching them up to fight with Frieza. At that point he thought he have got enough data, so he stopped watching them and started working on androids.

    The machines watching them after that point were controled by Gero's computer, which was busy creating main timeline Cell - and that's why I asked many pages back, how stronger the main timeline Cell would be.
    I forgot about you mentioning that.

    I now think that Cell's power would have remained the same in either timeline regardless of the extra time Gero had to mess about in the main timeline. Cell was conceived by a set process that does not change in either timeline. Gero simply puts the computer to work on it and that's it for 20+ years fusing the cells. The DNA samples are gathered from the same people at the same power level in all timelines. The last DNA gathered was Frieza with his battle with Trunks. Trunks was ignored because they already had enough Saiyan DNA. So whether it's Trunks fighting Frieza like the main timeline or Goku fighting Frieza in the Trunks timelines, the result DNA would be the same. This all leads me to believe he would be the same. Cell would not suffer from the differences in personality and power like the other androids because he was untouched by Gero post the Frieza/Trunks or Goku/Frieza battle on Earth.

    Gero's computer is not analyzing battles. In the episode Cell appears he said it spent its time finding the best possible way to fuse multiple DNA genotypes from different alien species to create a Super warrior. It literally takes 20+ years to just do this and then multiply the cells.

    Analyzing the battles with the bug was for Gero to use immediately in his androids not cell. Cell would have all that knowledge ingrained into his memory anyway since he is them. The androids needed the combat knowledge though or they would of been useless. What I'm saying is that no matter how little or how much he spyed on the Z fighters, it wouldn't effect cell's base power.
    Last edited by Duncanîdaho; 2012-05-06 at 11:46 AM.
    The generalist looks outward; he looks for living principles, knowing full well that such principles change, that they develop. It is to the characteristics of change itself that the mentat-generalist must look. There can be no permanent catalogue of such change, no handbook or manual. You must look at it with as few preconceptions as possible, asking yourself, "Now what is this thing doing?" -Children of Dune

  12. #1672
    Quote Originally Posted by Duncanîdaho View Post
    Gero's computer is not analyzing battles. It's spending its resources finding the best possible way to fuse multiple DNA genotypes from different alien species to create a Super warrior. It literally takes 20+ years to just do this and then multiply the cells.
    Oh yes, it was watching battles. Watch the episode where Piccolo, after fusing with Kami, meets Cell for the first time. Cell points out that the computer is still observing and gathering cells, and then camera switches to the fly-like robot hanging nearby, which is blasted by Piccolo shortly after.

  13. #1673
    Moderator Zoma's Avatar
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    Hmm, what if the fly-bot had gotten Cell's DNA?

    Yo dawg, we herd you liek Cell...

  14. #1674
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoma View Post
    Hmm, what if the fly-bot had gotten Cell's DNA?

    Yo dawg, we herd you liek Cell...
    Most likely Gero's computer would recognize different genotypes from all Z warriors and use Future Cell's cells as baseline, while adding new data from Future Trunks, Piccolo-Kami fusion and powered-up Z-warriors.

    If anything, it would speed up main timeline Cell's creation.

  15. #1675
    Epic! Duncanîdaho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rad586 View Post
    Oh yes, it was watching battles. Watch the episode where Piccolo, after fusing with Kami, meets Cell for the first time. Cell points out that the computer is still observing and gathering cells, and then camera switches to the fly-like robot hanging nearby, which is blasted by Piccolo shortly after.
    Seems your right. I literally had that episode on, but paused before that part came up lol. So your thinking as the fighter's improve, that bug is still grabbing say like vegeta's "stronger" DNA than from back when he and Goku fought the first time and adding more of it to the pile to be fused? Otherwise I still don't see how it would effect cell's strength to make them different in either timeline. The videos/sensors don't really help cell, as he has the first-hand memories and experiences of the fighters already, which is even better.

    Cell also seems pretty specific about who's DNA was gathered and when. You sure the bug isn't just hanging around still simply because that is what it was always programmed to do for Gero. Gero's just not around or has been to busy to turn it off? Cell could just be pointing it out to proof a point to Piccolo that it has always been there in the past and always will be there. Just because it's still bringing samples back, doesn't mean the computer is using them. Even cell said the computer had all it needed once it got to Frieza and King cold. It had got everyone powerful at least once by that point.

    Edit: Funny thought just occured. Of all the beings to get DNA samples off of on Earth, you think they would of got one from Garlic Jr. You know, the guy that's IMMORTAL. Could be some useful DNA lol.
    Last edited by Duncanîdaho; 2012-05-06 at 12:19 PM.
    The generalist looks outward; he looks for living principles, knowing full well that such principles change, that they develop. It is to the characteristics of change itself that the mentat-generalist must look. There can be no permanent catalogue of such change, no handbook or manual. You must look at it with as few preconceptions as possible, asking yourself, "Now what is this thing doing?" -Children of Dune

  16. #1676
    Quote Originally Posted by Duncanîdaho View Post
    Seems your right. I literally had that episode on, but paused before that part came up lol. So your thinking as the fighter's improve, that bug is still grabbing say like vegeta's "stronger" DNA than from back when he and Goku fought the first time and adding more of it to the pile to be fused? Otherwise I still don't see how it would effect cell's strength to make them different in either timeline. The videos/sensors don't really help cell, as he has the first-hand memories and experiences of the fighters already, which is even better.

    Cell also seems pretty specific about who's DNA was gathered and when. You sure the bug isn't just hanging around still simply because that is what it was always programmed to do for Gero. Gero's just not around or has been to busy to turn it off? Cell could just be pointing it out to proof a point to Piccolo that it has always been there in the past. Just because it bringing samples back, doesn't mean the computer is using them. Even cell said the computer had all it needed once it got to Frieza and King cold. It had got everyone powerful at least once by that point.
    The DNA itself is not everything that those bots were gathering, they were also analyzing data like fighting techniques (aka how they are pulled off, and teach them to Cell).
    The bots still gathering data might be one of the "minor" differences betwean Future and main timeline. Cell said it had enough data ...... maybe in HIS timeline. It's not like bots were doing this by themselves and that data was pointless. Computer still had to analyze it to decide if it is worthless or not. All the new techniques, all the styles of fighting etc. would still help main timeline Cell become better than his future counterpart, who had data up to fight with Frieza on Namek.

    Also, I guess Piccolo's DNA after fusion with Kami was different from that before the fusion. Which would explain the bot trying to get the DNA.

    EDIT: If Trunks haven't destroyed Gero's computer together with Cell in the main timeline, I guess we would have seen Main Timeline Imperfect Cell pulling off Final Flash.
    Last edited by rad586; 2012-05-06 at 12:21 PM.

  17. #1677
    Quote Originally Posted by Skelington View Post
    And yet, that is the content of the entire show. The video is a clip of an exampled scene, if you didn't notice. They could have added actual points and plot elements in that time. But no. It has to be them staring and grunting about how buff they are.
    I don't know the definition of filler, and I'm not going to argue over it. But I feel that these scenes you pointed out only create extra tension and drama.
    If we never get scenes with strong people shocked, how are we supposed to get a sense of power? How do we know that we should be scared of Cell?

    You'd miss out on a lot. If you just see people in battle constantly, you'd have no context to place them in. Judging by the spectators reactions we can guess powers and build tension. Removing that (which I think you suggest) wouldn't be very good for the series.

    And you say that battles drag out too long? But you're talking about a series that's all about fighting, how is that a bad thing?

    The only 'filler' that annoyed me was Garlick junior saga. I just felt that Piccolo or Gohan should've been able to bitchslap him in like 1 episode.

  18. #1678
    Epic! Duncanîdaho's Avatar
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    @Rad586
    So you think Cell was taught his techniques then?

    I always thought they were part of him. Nothing was taught to him through machines. He was simply formed from cells and grown. That he is a living embodiment of every DBZ character. That he even had their memories(through cellular memory) up to the point the DNA was gathered, that is why he could do the techniques. Because he remembers how goku learned and does the Kamehameha wave, or Piccolo and the special beam cannon...etc. This is also why he knew their personalities so well, because he is them. He doesn't even seem to be programmed with a purpose next to be becoming the strongest and most dominant warrior. I always thought that was because he was Frieza and King Cold and had tons of Sayain genes. It made him act that way. Get what I'm saying.

    I like what your saying though. One thing bothers me about it though. Cell isn't a machine. He's not like the androids where Gero can mathematically analyze ki blasts then plug the numbers into them. How would he teach them to Cell? I would think that if cell didn't naturally have his abilities he would of had to of trained and honed his skills somewhere first after he learned about them. You think future Trunks or Gohan would of noticed in that timeline if that was happening.

    Edit: Wonder if Gero considered Cell his son? Odd the lack of restrictions or purpose like the androids. Gero knew he would be dead so he made something to carry on his legacy and need for dominance.
    Last edited by Duncanîdaho; 2012-05-06 at 12:50 PM.
    The generalist looks outward; he looks for living principles, knowing full well that such principles change, that they develop. It is to the characteristics of change itself that the mentat-generalist must look. There can be no permanent catalogue of such change, no handbook or manual. You must look at it with as few preconceptions as possible, asking yourself, "Now what is this thing doing?" -Children of Dune

  19. #1679
    Quote Originally Posted by Skelington View Post
    Homophobic implies a latent homosexual. Not to mention your question. And aside from that there's more between the lines that what you present at face value, whether you realize it or not. That's not putting words in someone's mouth. Either way, no he's not. And you still aren't providing any proof.

    It's almost as if you've forgotten.

    Well, if you watched anime you would understand. You don't need to learn how a character takes a shit, nor what his favorite food is, nor what how well his vision is, nor what color his socks were that one special christmas eve. You learn enough from a character in the show, and what isn't given leaves room for speculation and, more often than not, presents enough information for you to discern a character's story. Hell, Mami from Madoka Magica gained a cult following in three episodes and you can deduce her entire backstory and character from them.
    Actually, I think I know where to place you.

    You just seem upset that people here like DBZ, while it's garbage in your eyes compared to other anime. You're some kind of anime elitist snob.
    We're stupid for liking such a poorly made series, is that it?

    Oh, and by the way. The only one implying insults here is you. Since clearly you all make us out for homosexuals for liking DBZ, if you read these quotes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Skelington View Post
    All it is is a bunch of muscled sweaty guys panting and screaming through intermissions of explanations on how they punch or shoot laser beams with names
    Quote Originally Posted by Skelington View Post
    It's about extremely buff guys beating the shit out of each other with homoerotic undertones.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skelington View Post
    Homophobic? You don't know Skelington in the slightest if you think that he's homophobic.
    You aren't homophobic. Then why do you only talk about buff and sweaty men? We weren't talking about that, you brought it up. And now you're not homophobic?

    Anyway, why come to this thread if you got nothing constructive to say? Sure, you've 'seen the light' and like all sorts of other anime now.
    And you want to guide us towards other anime. But is that what this thread is for? I think not.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-06 at 12:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoma View Post
    All these comments about homosexuality, and not a single Zarbon or General Blue post. C'mon people.
    Or that henchman of Cooler, what's his name... Salza? :P

  20. #1680
    Moderator Zoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    Or that henchman of Cooler, what's his name... Salza? :P
    Generic pretty one. They are in every movie (or at least the earlier ones). Piccolo explained it in the TFS Lord Slug. There was the pretty one, the tough, stupid one, and the one with the weird ability.

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