I hope they don't make any more Sinestras and Algalons and make more Ragnaroses

[Raevene]

I mean sure, ok you're hard core and you get to see some more, but whole bosses? What's next? Whole raids? Oh wait, are we gonna have a whole expansion for you? Give me a break.

Reality is most things that happen in this game are not done for the casuals. That fallacy exists because the casuals never speak. The casuals are in 90% of their population players that stay for 2 to 6 months in the game. They do not have a voice and even if they had it is not heard at all. Hence since the casuals never speak or speak very lightly what do you have? A loud population of hard cores.

Just because there are some HC-only bosses doesn't mean we're on a slippery slope that will result in HC-only expansions, that's a rather ridiculous point to make.

And you say casuals never speak? I take it you've never visited the official forums then...

[This name sucks]

Just because there are some HC-only bosses doesn't mean we're on a slippery slope that will result in HC-only expansions, that's a rather ridiculous point to make.

And you say casuals never speak? I take it you've never visited the official forums then...

Vanilla and BC were heroic only expansions. Yet it is almost unanimous that BC was the best xpac. There is just way too much of a stigma to put some time aside to play the game with a group of 24 other people and have a good evening doing a challenging boss.

If trade doesn't work, can't find an acceptable guild through the dozen or so forums that have a guild recruitment section, don't have real friends, won't make your own guild, then frankly, you are probably doing it wrong and wouldn't make it far in a raid anyway.

[hellboyy]

the problem is blizzard fails at creating compelling end game content for casual players. the answer to that is not taking away the price encounters for raiders.

the pve game outside of hard modes right now is very boring. why does everything have to be so pushover, why dont ppl get challenged while questing and doing dungeons?

[Feluna]

What I mean, sure, maybe give something more to "see" to hard core guild but Sinestra and Algalon are too much, you don't even see ANYTHING about them.

Ragnaros is completely chopped off in terms of Lore, e.g. you do the single player quests in cata and you're supposed to invade firelands and kill Ragnaros and the guys will help you, and only hard core players get to see the ending, but AT LEAST you saw part of it.

I mean sure, ok you're hard core and you get to see some more, but whole bosses? What's next? Whole raids? Oh wait, are we gonna have a whole expansion for you? Give me a break.

Reality is most things that happen in this game are not done for the casuals. That fallacy exists because the casuals never speak. The casuals are in 90% of their population players that stay for 2 to 6 months in the game. They do not have a voice and even if they had it is not heard at all. Hence since the casuals never speak or speak very lightly what do you have? A loud population of hard cores.

It's natural because hard cores are the ones giving the most long term monthly fees.

I really really hope you're are trolling. The game is casual enough....
You really have no reasons to cry.
Anjerith say everything what can be say about your post.

[Deleted]

Nice point of view you got. What your telling me to do. Is camp SW for hours on end every day for a raid that have a miniscule chance to set off. In addition to bother people who specifically ask for achi, with the reduced amount of people doing the previous tier. The restriction and gear requirement is even higher. I saw a BH10 run today asking for ilvl 360. I have tanked Occu in ungemmed/chanted 346.

Reading up on bosses that I wont meet in a foreseeable future I gave up after the first few bosses in BWD when guild stopped raiding. Half year later I meet neffy/ony for first time. And I can promise you, the tactics I read six months earlier didn't help me at all. Experiencing it did.

You need to apply to guild as if your applying to a job. You need education as if your to show up to exam if you wanna raid.

Terrible game design. End of story. There are unknown amounts of thousands of players in very same situation. I meet them daily. And yea, for the record. My server suck, should this matter? no. Another one? I have always liked tank and spank. Game is p. easy. Lets play and get over with it and not stand here wipe for hours cause our healer, the tanks wife is not so experienced.

Nonono. Let's not play. Let's camp SW.

It seems you'd like to raid without giving any effort into it.
I started raiding in wotlk more casually, and just now more hardcore. The path I took was build the raiding experience from the ground level; join a guild with only a little bit of progress and then work my way up. After only about a year of work I find myself in a guild that is on the level I wish to be at.
Pugs probably aren't the way to start raiding. My friend joined a guild just only a week ago with NO experience at all and is now a part of the guilds' core team with 6/7 normal modes. You need to show that you're willing to put the time and effort into it in your gear and knowledge. Knowledge is very hard to prove to pug leaders if you've got no experience, that's why I wouldn't start with pugs.

Yes, the application to a guild is like if you'd be applying to a job. Yes, you need to have education about your class, gear and the encounters. But NO, you do not have to have experience in order to get to the less hardcore guilds. It's a process of working your way up. It takes time and effort, but hell, all that effort has been worth it for me. You just need to take the risk and see if it fits you.

[ChuckWood]

And all of these "Link Achievement" excuses are just that. Does it happen? Yeah. Does it happen often? No.

Come on down to Kil'Jaeden and put your money where your mouth is.

[Deleted]

I don't care about lore, but I thought Algalon was kinda cool, having that secret special boss with 1 hour to kill.

found vaelastrasz very special

[Seezer]

What I mean, sure, maybe give something more to "see" to hard core guild but Sinestra and Algalon are too much, you don't even see ANYTHING about them.

Ragnaros is completely chopped off in terms of Lore, e.g. you do the single player quests in cata and you're supposed to invade firelands and kill Ragnaros and the guys will help you, and only hard core players get to see the ending, but AT LEAST you saw part of it.

I mean sure, ok you're hard core and you get to see some more, but whole bosses? What's next? Whole raids? Oh wait, are we gonna have a whole expansion for you? Give me a break.

Reality is most things that happen in this game are not done for the casuals. That fallacy exists because the casuals never speak. The casuals are in 90% of their population players that stay for 2 to 6 months in the game. They do not have a voice and even if they had it is not heard at all. Hence since the casuals never speak or speak very lightly what do you have? A loud population of hard cores.

It's natural because hard cores are the ones giving the most long term monthly fees.

Casual does not mean "NERF CONTENT NOW OR I'M TAKING MY 9,000 FRIENDS AND WE'RE QUITTING BLIZZ!". Casual is how you play. There are successful raiders that are casual. Now, bad players that can't move out of a void zone, are the ones whining relentlessly about difficulty on the forums. In droves. And it hasn't stopped since cata was released. Blizz has done so much in the way of nerfing the shit out of heroics, nerfing the living crap out of T11, making VP laughable, and yet, people still whine. And whine they do. But the jaded people are the loudest. And you can see it any day on the official forums.

This T12 nerf is the first time in a while where raiders both casual and hardcore are upset with the dumbing down of current content. If whiners put more into actually raiding and learning, as they do bitching on the forums, they would have moderate success in raiding. But they don't want to do that. Because they look at raiders as the bad guys. And they want to do whatever they can to rub their faces in the dirt. And that's all this difficulty thing is.

If blizz would have kept their mouths shut and just released cata with the same intent that they did, there wouldn't be a fraction of the QQ. But because they chose to say "Heroics heroic again" and "Epics epic again" that's all people needed. And they raged. Even months before cata was released they raged. So instead of giving brand new dungeons a chance, and trying to get through them like a normal person, they went into their first dungeon, wiped once, and then went racing to the forums to start the QQ.*Some people were foaming at the mouth waiting for release so they could run to the forums and say "See blizz! Heroics heroic again huh? Well, we'll see about that! I haz a lyfe you know". But the truth is, this whole difficulty argument is more about individuals emotions. Not that things are really that difficult for them.

BC flourished. Despite being very "casual" unfriendly. Rep grinds, attunements, difficult bosses, some really difficult heroics, yet the game grew in subscribers more than wrath. The truth is, people will play a game if the quality of the game is good. And BC was beautiful. Difficulty isn't the deciding factor. It's how good the game/expac actually is.

---------- Post added 2011-09-14 at 05:01 AM ----------

Come on down to Kil'Jaeden and put your money where your mouth is.

Riiight. Hmmm. A massive server with a trade chat to match? No brainer. You're going to see it. I said that. But people are using it as an excuse as to why they can't do things. And that's just that. An excuse. It's not the plague everybody makes it out to be.

[Slavemaker]

Don't suck and you will get to Ragna, I'm slacking atm on raiding and I think I don't deserve to see Ragn go down yet. Once I get my gear, worked my way up slowly I will kill the fucker.

Next expension I'l prob go endgame from start again

First time in firelands to kill bosses and I saw ragnaros.

[ChuckWood]

the problem is blizzard fails at creating compelling end game content for casual players. the answer to that is not taking away the price encounters for raiders.

I'm a hard mode raider, and I call bullshit. Hard Modes are my encounters, I don't give 2 shits if casuals get normal mode where the bosses clearable in blues. I don't give half a shit if they get the same gear I do for it either.

You confuse experiencing the game and the rewarding feeling of beating a hard mode encounter with your own egomanical desire to think you're better than someone. I don't care if Johnny 1-hour-a-week has identical gear to me, I play to beat the bosses and I get that rewarding feeling from beating them with 24 friends. If you're playing to try and give yourself that feeling of social hierarchy and being "above" others, than you need help.

You, and everyone like you, are too concerned with using WoW as a tool to fill in some sort of problem in your life or your mind. To use this game as a way to feel like you're superior to others because you clearly have a hole in you where your real life hasn't given you enough to feel fulfilled.

---------- Post added 2011-09-14 at 05:05 AM ----------

[/COLOR]Riiight. Hmmm. A massive server with a trade chat to match? No brainer. You're going to see it. I said that. But people are using it as an excuse as to why they can't do things. And that's just that. An excuse. It's not the plague everybody makes it out to be.

Shut your yap and come on down. Too much of a pussy to see you're wrong? You will get no pug without an Achievement unless you're joining Xwn's pre-Cata pugs.

[Tharkkun]

I've never understood why people feel so entitled to see everything the game has to offer without putting time into it. When you buy a single player game you don't automatically get to see everything, you have to play it, defeat its challenges and then see what lies at the end of it. Just because it is an mmo why is it any different? If you don't want to put forth the effort to see it why should you be allowed to see it? Does not seeing a tiny bit of a raid make the game not fun to you? Does the game have nothing else to offer you?

Because people are paying the same amount of real life $$$ as you so they are entitled to see content in a "game". This isn't real life, it's entertainment. Some people buy single player games and immediately find the cheat codes. Others play through it on the hardest level. They still both played the game and saw the content.

Don't get me wrong I'm a little upset for the nerf but whatever, the game will go on. I'd much rather see some of my friends who aren't hardcore clear and experience content and have fun doing it. Even if they are bad. :P

[Seezer]

I'm a hard mode raider, and I call bullshit. Hard Modes are my encounters, I don't give 2 shits if casuals get normal mode where the bosses clearable in blues. I don't give half a shit if they get the same gear I do for it either.

You confuse experiencing the game and the rewarding feeling of beating a hard mode encounter with your own egomanical desire to think you're better than someone. I don't care if Johnny 1-hour-a-week has identical gear to me, I play to beat the bosses and I get that rewarding feeling from beating them with 24 friends. If you're playing to try and give yourself that feeling of social hierarchy and being "above" others, than you need help.

You, and everyone like you, are too concerned with using WoW as a tool to fill in some sort of problem in your life or your mind. To use this game as a way to feel like you're superior to others because you clearly have a hole in you where your real life hasn't given you enough to feel fulfilled.

---------- Post added 2011-09-14 at 05:05 AM ----------



Shut your yap and come on down. Too much of a pussy to see you're wrong? You will get no pug without an Achievement unless you're joining Xwn's pre-Cata pugs.

Wow, getting all worked up. Trying to get your little epeen back up by internet tough guyin' it up? Maybe you should take your own words as advice. I don't need to transfer to KJ to know I'm right.

[Deleted]

Way to completely take the post out of context. He said clearly, IT IS YOUR JOB IF YOU WANT TO BE IN A SUCCESSFUL RAID TO COME AS PREPARED AS POSSIBLE. If you don't, you don't deserve to raid. If you do raid, you deserve to wipe endlessly on the first boss and have the group fall apart. How hard is that to understand?

I think this is a game
Games are meant to have fun
Games are meant to explore things on ur own
At games u must equip only with a feeling of joy
If some ppl want other ppl to behave like rombots without mistakes , in order the <<some ppl>> have fun is bad
If some ppl cant afford some wipefests , and feel the scrubs are ruing their precious time is bad

What the poing if u are already know everything about the boss without even trying in practical expiriance ?
Do u personaly feel ur exciment of the andrelaline rush , rissing up , and the glorious feeling of taking down a dificult task , or <<ok we got it , NEXT>> <<blizz coomon bring more cookies and more fun factor>>

Have u played any game or Final Fantasy , but before u even start , u just check the internet about any detail -bosses-tacktis-summon-spells or what to find in the corner ?

But i understand
Deathwing is near
We must rush to kill the rest of the 4.1-4.2 bosses
But we must study hard on the tacktics ,cause we dont want << any funky suprise>>

(scrub bg hero Vergin-Deathwing)

[Deleted]

You confuse experiencing the game and the rewarding feeling of beating a hard mode encounter with your own egomanical desire to think you're better than someone. I don't care if Johnny 1-hour-a-week has identical gear to me, I play to beat the bosses and I get that rewarding feeling from beating them with 24 friends. If you're playing to try and give yourself that feeling of social hierarchy and being "above" others, than you need help.

This summarizes how I feel.

I also fail to see the problem, OP; you want to experience the most difficult encounters in game so you want them to be easily accessible. You do realize that if they were easily accessible you wouldn't feel that desire? If anything, I'd love Blizzard for adding more really difficult content to give players that ultimate challange to strive against. Content doesn't need to be seen by everybody to fill a purpose.

If you truly want to play with your current guild members and in game friends but you're convinced they're unable to perform as well as necessary, how about inspiring them to play better? I raid with practically only IRLs. Some are great players, some were terrible players who have become great, some... Well yeah. It works out and we're capable of eating through more and more of HC bosses for every tier despite raiding on a rather "casual" scheme.

[Seezer]

Nothing, but excuses. Yea I can see that from you. You need to have worked quite a lot to get 365 ilvl, anyone who play more than one 85 know that. Unless you count pvp gear. My main got 372 and there is no way he can get any more upgrades outside raids. Ok. Fine he can, but I won't spend 30k on a weapon that's outdated in a month and that I should have gotten progress raiding. For not to mention current character state is fine for the progression that I fully agree with you is easy. Yet, inaccessible.

If it happens often? It happens 95% of the time. I'm sure you notice this the only nine hours a week your online raiding.

I am penalized for staying with my long-term in game friends. Real-Id friends quit long time ago or play on different servers. They all can do the most basic things and way beyond that, but were not raiding. I have to join strangers, leave my life. Reduce my characters progress and risk it all to be in vain for a vast amount of possible reasons.

I am not blocking off options. I am here highlighting issues with the options that represent a terrible game design. If you read my post, you would see I am not the one who need/want to faceroll the content. The average playerbase is, thus. As I am pugging, that includes me.

Far from everyone that want to raid can. They can try, and fail. Or they may succeed. Or they may not get to the point where they even get to try. The latest one whom apply to increasing amount of people. For a variety of reasons, be it bad class balance or bad guild system.



Really looking forward to it. Guess again, I advice you to read first.



It seems people are used to zero effort raiders and can't or wont recognize HC's anymore.

I wouldn't start with pugs either, but there is no viable option until 4.3. Class and gear knowledge is so deep in my bones I don't even consider that as "raiding education" anymore. Sorry for being vague in explanations, of course I got raiding etiquette and class knowledge. I have to disagree thou. You do not need to be educated in the encounters. The best education is gained on the spot and in the experience. Knowing my buttons and showing up in time repaired with consumables shocking you with my performance, is all I need to provide until we meet a progression boss. Then question is: Is this a progression boss for just me, or the whole raid? If just me, of course I will read up.

Took the risk in ICC, was cool for a week or two until I got so sick of a "protected" child on vent that I demanded a gkick. Rejoined old guild, suggesting that I did not and looked for yet another new guild or in worst case (my case) server? Oww. All these penalties for loyalty. Rejoining old guild was a just choice. We alted icc, prepped for cata, but died again shortly after launch. Cata is not appealing to everyone, I can understand, but I chose this game six years ago. And I will manage to stick out one bad expansion, one season of bad class balancing etc. And I show up to raid regardless if I hate the boss, raid, know it will be wipenight or w/e.

Really felt the need to elaborate my raiding effort. My effort is fine and above the average. Yet, the raids are inaccessible. End of story.

I sure do notice it. I'm not oblivious to trade. We get our ontime Ep a half hour before the raid starts. So yeah, I'm chillin' in org. But anyway, percentages that people pull out of the air are just that. And people will latch on to any reason why they can't do it. Do you realize how much 378 gear is available without ever stepping foot into a raid? No, i'm not talking about pvp gear. Straight pve. You have MF gear, BoE's, 6 pieces of 378 on the VP vendors. And if you do want to step in and do trash, an easily farmable belt and cloak. And not to mention the loot from BoT, BwD, BH, and Throne. It's not inaccessible. Everything that people like to use as a reason as to why they can't do something, is a reason they're searching for. Because it's convenient. That's all it is.

[Cairhiin]

Seriously this casual whining is starting to get old. It doesn't take more than 10-12 hours a week of raiding to see bosses like Algalon and Ragnaros. Which is hardly a lot. Raiding has been massively nerfed; if you still can't manage to kill those bosses than raiding is probably not for you. Furthermore, please don't bring up the excuse that you pay the same 12.99 euro as everyone else. That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard and casuals use it like a shield. Effort equals rewards, it's like this in every single MMO. If you don't like that, then once again WoW is probably not the right game for you.

[rayden54]

You have to realize raids are for raiders.

Sorry, but that's like saying that games are for gamers. People who raid are raiders. People who raid casually are casual raiders. If you mean that raids are for hardcore raiders, you're pretty much implying that the game itself is only for hardcores since that's where most of the content is.

That said, I completely disagree with the OP. I see Sinestra and Algalon as part of an answer to the divide. I think it would be even better to completely separate Heroic and normal progression-as in Heroic modes are available at the start and don't require completing normals to open-just so that the Hardcore players don't have to mess with the "easy modes" and Blizz doesn't have to worry about making the normals hard enough to challenge the Hardcores (and risk making them too hard for the casuals). Throwing the hardcores an extra boss or two doesn't bother me.

Now what does bother me a bit though is that short of guild boss kill vids, I can't see the boss at all. I know that seems to contradict, but it would be nice if, when they introduce the next tier, they put in interactive cut-scenes of the previous raid (something similar to the DK zone end quest) so that I can at least watch the fight from an "inside" PoV. And heck, it could clear up lore questions like which side really killed the bosses in Icecrown in an interesting way.

[Blackfoo]

ill admit Chogall was really hard for us our first time but its till able to be done just have to commit to a raiding guild and there time. Hardcore players are going to want to seperate the normal players vs the hardcore and owning items/titles from those bosses what you know is the show for hardwork. Most players are able to play at the hardcore level they just don't want A. Change there personal Life for it or B. Put in the work class wise to do it C. They cant work as a team to get there

[Xalorith]

Nothing, but excuses. Yea I can see that from you. You need to have worked quite a lot to get 365 ilvl, anyone who play more than one 85 know that. Unless you count pvp gear. My main got 372 and there is no way he can get any more upgrades outside raids. Ok. Fine he can, but I won't spend 30k on a weapon that's outdated in a month and that I should have gotten progress raiding. For not to mention current character state is fine for the progression that I fully agree with you is easy. Yet, inaccessible.

If it happens often? It happens 95% of the time. I'm sure you notice this the only nine hours a week your online raiding.

I am penalized for staying with my long-term in game friends. Real-Id friends quit long time ago or play on different servers. They all can do the most basic things and way beyond that, but were not raiding. I have to join strangers, leave my life. Reduce my characters progress and risk it all to be in vain for a vast amount of possible reasons.

I am not blocking off options. I am here highlighting issues with the options that represent a terrible game design. If you read my post, you would see I am not the one who need/want to faceroll the content. The average playerbase is, thus. As I am pugging, that includes me.

Far from everyone that want to raid can. They can try, and fail. Or they may succeed. Or they may not get to the point where they even get to try. The latest one whom apply to increasing amount of people. For a variety of reasons, be it bad class balance or bad guild system.



Really looking forward to it. Guess again, I advice you to read first.



It seems people are used to zero effort raiders and can't or wont recognize HC's anymore.

I wouldn't start with pugs either, but there is no viable option until 4.3. Class and gear knowledge is so deep in my bones I don't even consider that as "raiding education" anymore. Sorry for being vague in explanations, of course I got raiding etiquette and class knowledge. I have to disagree thou. You do not need to be educated in the encounters. The best education is gained on the spot and in the experience. Knowing my buttons and showing up in time repaired with consumables shocking you with my performance, is all I need to provide until we meet a progression boss. Then question is: Is this a progression boss for just me, or the whole raid? If just me, of course I will read up.

Took the risk in ICC, was cool for a week or two until I got so sick of a "protected" child on vent that I demanded a gkick. Rejoined old guild, suggesting that I did not and looked for yet another new guild or in worst case (my case) server? Oww. All these penalties for loyalty. Rejoining old guild was a just choice. We alted icc, prepped for cata, but died again shortly after launch. Cata is not appealing to everyone, I can understand, but I chose this game six years ago. And I will manage to stick out one bad expansion, one season of bad class balancing etc. And I show up to raid regardless if I hate the boss, raid, know it will be wipenight or w/e.

Really felt the need to elaborate my raiding effort. My effort is fine and above the average. Yet, the raids are inaccessible. End of story.

They're more inaccessible to pugs, yeah, but why would you want to pug? You will get more enjoyment from raiding in a guild where you also don't hate the people. There are countless guilds that are doing the last few bosses in FL that don't ask you to have achievements, don't care for your experience, aren't asking for full T12 4p etc. My guild, for example, invites anyone without question, then we see if they know what they're doing in terms of gemming etc. and if they don't we guide them. We then trial these people on farm nights, see how well they know their class, if they make mistakes, do they learn from their mistakes, how quickly can they react to things, do they ask questions if they're unsure etc. If they do terrible on one night, I tell them they're not ready, and point them in the right direction where they can improve, then we trial them again two or so weeks later. For those who do awesome on the farm night, we bring them in more for other nights. We don't have a set 10 people who we raid with. Every raid night will be different in terms of raid comp because Person A has to have a family dinner or person B can't make it due to work etc.

I'm pretty sure Blizz wanted Cata to be more of a guild experience when it came to end-game. I can't pull out any quotes or sources, but from their actions as well, it seems this was the general idea. Guild activity. You stated that you'd need to leave friends to join other guilds? What if you just started a raid division in your friend's guild? You can be the RL, and just recruit people for raiding, if your friends don't wish to raid, that is. That way, you still have the social aspect of being with friends, and you still get to raid.

Some people (not you specifically) argue that guilds set raid times and you just want to hop online at any time you feel like and raid for an hour or two. Well, guilds only do that to be organized, and there is nothing wrong with organization. If you do want to just hop on at any time and start raiding, then make your own group, where you don't ask for achievements from people and bring in whoever you want. Just because everyone else is asking for achievements to join a pug, doesn't mean you have to.

Honestly, I believe the issue lies more with the players than with the design of the game, but I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with me.

[Deleted]

If I could have made 1 cent out of each of these casual vs hardcore thread, I'd be rich by now ^^.

That part really made me lol: "Reality is most things that happen in this game are not done for the casuals. That fallacy exists because the casuals never speak."

That part is quite funny too after an announce that HEROIC MODE is to be nerfed next week: "I mean sure, ok you're hard core and you get to see some more, but whole bosses? What's next? Whole raids? Oh wait, are we gonna have a whole expansion for you? Give me a break."

Be you casual or hardcore, rest assured, Blizzard enjoys this game much more then you will ever do .

Peace