1. #1
    Deleted

    Racial base mana and regen questions

    Pretty much a dumb question, but I'm trying to figure out what sort of gain I'd have switching from human to gnome and if in some situation it's a good thing to force activation of t12(2) (in fights like Beth where I'm pretty much a PoH spam bot). Maybe someone can answer me right of the bat on these:

    Am I right that base mana is different for each class/race?
    What is base mana for human priest and gnome priest?
    Did someone calculate the difference in mana regen between those two considering rapture, SF, t12(2), hymn, replenishment, etc and switching racials (5% manapool vs 3% spirit) in 378 and 391 stuff?

    I guess this has been discussed elsewhere and pointing me out in the right direction would be ok too. Tks!

    ---------- Post added 2011-09-13 at 06:51 PM ----------

    Found some answer just after I posted. Base mana is different from class to class but not from race to race.
    So base mana for priest would be 20590 at 85.

    Still looking for the math on mana regen in FL stuff.
    Last edited by mmoc4a1158ae20; 2011-09-13 at 05:55 PM.

  2. #2
    Seeing as you've found the answer to the Base Mana question, the benefits for shifting to Gnome from Human were noticable in 333 gear, and only rising with every tier.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  3. #3
    Deleted
    I know that it would be a gain. I'm interested in how much.

  4. #4
    The math was done in 346 gear a long time ago, and just commonly accepted beyond that. I'm not really sure what you're looking for. A solid <X> mp5 number? That's going to vary on raid comp, cooldowns being tossed around, how effectively you can throw your Hymn of Hope out (timed with procs and still using Shadowfiend?), not to mention least of all your varying levels of Intellect.

    To the size of the gain, the only answer is "Yes, it's noticable. Yes, it's significant enough to follow through on".
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  5. #5
    I'm going to see if I can figure out how much spirit it works out to.

  6. #6
    Deleted
    Tks a lot!

  7. #7
    Deleted
    Human: The Human Spirit based on current spirit
    Gnome: Expansive Mind based on mana pool gained from base mana, intellect mana and mana buffs/proccs

    I assume you are disc, because as holy you benefit from a greater mana pool only very slithly. The human spirit gain you get depends on the spirit on your gear and disc priests may run around with between 1500 and 3300 spirit in fireland gear, so we can't tell you your benefit. It would be between 45 and 100 spirit, nearly two and a half socket. with 120k mana you gain 6k additional mana as gnome which results in 1680 mana per minute if rapture is triggered four times.

  8. #8
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    I'm not really sure what you're looking for. A solid <X> mp5 number?
    Exactly. Assuming all raid buffs and optimal use of HoH/SF in 378 and 391 gear (as disc, obviously).
    Last edited by mmoc4a1158ae20; 2011-09-13 at 06:35 PM.

  9. #9
    So, i've got the results from simulationcraft.

    There are a few reasons you can't really trust these results entirely.

    Simcraft shows some really wacky results when haste cooldowns are allowed to interact with efficient throughput cooldowns. This is because the sim follows a predetermined cast priority rather than having to actually heal existing damage. What I mean is this: suppose the priest in the simulator uses PI (throughput/effic) with FQ (throughput/effic) at the same time as bloodlust (haste only). Basically, under this condition, the sim just keeps spamming PoH - because the spellcasts are even cheaper than normal, the simulator will think that more haste actually winds up giving you more throughput for the fight. This doesn't actually happen when you're healing an actual encounter, I think. Not often anyway.

    Also the simulation is a perfect healing behavior that you'd only see in pretty unrealistic circumstances. It's akin to healing through alysrazor's enrage for 6 minutes straight. Probably the biggest thing wrong with the whole setup - it just uses cooldowns whenever it can, in pairs. FQ+berserking, waits until berserking fades then uses PI+Jaws. It'll do as much of this sequence as it can every time cooldowns are available. Not realistic in the least, because (1) we try to use cooldowns when we can actually make use of them (2) we always keep at least 1 throughput cooldown available for when things get dicey.

    Regardless, under these conditions simcraft calls all the races pretty close (to within ~3%).

    Basically, I think you can't really take anything away from this. The real thing that throws me off - I can't understand why the spirit scale factor would be lower for sims that run OOM sooner, but higher for sims that run OOM later.
    So, here you go: First, look at the sim results here.
    race || HPS || scale factor

    Goblin: 35290 HPS, 4.3
    Human: 35049 HPS, 5.8
    Blood Elf: 34830 HPS, 2.5
    Troll: 34385 HPS, 4.5
    Gnome: 33960 HPS, 3.7

    This would suggest race changing from Human to Gnome would be like losing some amount of spirit:
    [Human HPS - Gnome HPS] / [Human spi scale factor] = 180 spirit.

    The human priest in the sim has 2364 spirit
    The gnome priest in the sim has 2296 spirit

    It doesn't pass my reality check. The gnome should get more healing done, not less. I guess simcraft isn't good enough to compare the racials.
    Last edited by zakaluka; 2011-09-13 at 09:24 PM.

  10. #10
    Well it could be that the mana regen hit that would be taken switching from human to gnome could out weigh the increased amount of mana you get being a gnome?

  11. #11
    Right, well in fact you're probably right. But if you think about that, too, the human only has about 70 more spirit. So at the very worst, when you switch to gnome, if the gnome racial trait is absolutely worthless it'd be like losing about 70 spirit.

    ---------- Post added 2011-09-13 at 04:11 PM ----------

    Durations were different for the BE and Gnome runs, throwing everything a bit off.

    Blood Elf: 37700 HPS, 2.3
    Gnome: 37049 HPS, 3.5
    Goblin: 35290 HPS, 4.3
    Human: 35049 HPS, 5.8
    Troll: 34385 HPS, 4.5

    So, going from Human -> Gnome would be worth about 300 spirit if you could always cast your most efficient spells all the time.
    About the same, going from Goblin -> Bloodelf.

    But the sim always casts at really high efficiency, so both these figures are probably closer to ~180 spirit. If I had to guess.

    If you go down to the 'resources' drop down, you'll see that every single one of the gnome's int based mana returns is slightly more than the human's, while its spirit regen is a little less. There's just a lot of sources for int based regen.
    Last edited by zakaluka; 2011-09-13 at 10:33 PM.

  12. #12
    Deleted
    You know, this topic is really interesting as I've had similar thoughts, but on Horde-side. Thinking of switching from belf to goblin, which would mean losing AT but gaining some haste instead. I would like to use my shadowfiend more often now when we are closing in on Beth and Baleroc HC, so maybe adding on the racial would make it easier for me to swap points from Darkness into Veiled Shadows.

    The thing is, the math side of things really confused me so I was hoping someone with a better grasp of the particulars have figured this out, but as of yet this is almost the only priest racials vs HPS/regen discussion I have seen.

    It seems going from belf to goblin is a bad idea though, based on the sim crafts?

  13. #13
    It's just a slight effic loss for a gain in burst throughput. Say I do the same thing for goblin / bloodelf, again pretend the blood elf has 180 spirit over the goblin. 1% haste is about 130 haste rating. You're trading 180 spirit for 130 haste. Worth it? sure. You don't spend GCDs on the goblin haste racial.

    Is the model realistic? Well, not really. Like I said, I don't really trust the simcraft scale factors. It has nothing to do with the fact that simc spits out a stupid number like 38k hps - If I could actually stand still and never cast anything but my most efficient heals in 25 man for 6 minutes, and never overheal, it might actually be possible. The scale factors throw it off a bit, since they should be more similar.

    For some context, my priest is a troll. I'll be staying with troll even though simcraft calls it the least efficient.
    Last edited by zakaluka; 2011-09-14 at 06:02 PM.

  14. #14
    Here is some rough math at ~7k unbuffed int, 2k spirit (haven't really double-checked this so something might be way off):

    Human racial: you get 60 spirit = 44 mp5.

    Gnome racial: raid buffed, you will have about 140k mana, so 5% extra mana = 7k.

    Note that by itself, 7k mana is better than 44 mp5 until you get to a 13+ minute fight. However, you also get:

    ~35 mp5 from replenishment (7k * 1% / 10 * 5)
    ~40 mp5 from shadowfiend (7k * 36% / 300 * 5)
    ~165 mp5 from rapture, assuming 4 ppm (7k * 7% * 4 / 60 * 5)
    ~10 mp5 from hymn of hope

    or roughly 250 mp5 (about 330 spirit). If you are getting innervated, that's about another 10 mp5.

    Spirit scaling is completely linear and int scaling is approximately linear within a reasonable range, so for example if you have 3k spirit instead of 2k, you will get 44 * 3/2 = 66 mp5 from the human racial (at 7k int) and if you have 6k unbuffed int instead of 7k, you will get approximately 250 * 6/7 = 214 mp5 from the gnome racial.

  15. #15
    Your conclusion is close to my first one, so cool

    I just assumed some amount of imperfect play though and ratioed the casting efficiency I think I can actually get against what the simulator comes up with. That's why I ended up saying 180 spirit.

    From your standpoint that would be like, getting rapture and replenishment a few seconds late each time.

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