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  1. #1

    Stuck on Alysrazor

    Hey lovely Priests

    Once again I turn to you asking for help, thank you

    My casual Guild find ourselves stuck on Alysrazor. Im beginning to doubt my Healing Skills, and selection of Spells.

    Our Death Knight tank just keeps dying- Taking severe damage compared to our Paladin Tank.

    We have lacked interrupts too. So often one of our Healers have to watch over that, obviously resulting in him being half a Healer.

    But my main concern is my Tank dying. Im not an expert in analyzing Logs. So if one of you - maybe you are bored at work - or looking for something to spend your time on - would be so kind and assist me in this, I would be really grateful

    Basicly Im asking for the errors here. As far as I can see - Our Death knight Tank often takes roughly 180k damage in a matter of a few secounds. Which should be possible for me to heal up.

    Other than that, we lack DPS as well. Is it possible to 2 man heal it?

    I would really like to manage as many Bosses in Firelands before the - way to sudden - nerf Blizzard intend.

    Here are our Logs for the last attempts we had. The first Log includes the most wipes. Not all wipes have been caused by our Death Knight dying first.

    I´m the Discipline Priest you see. Our Healing assignments are:

    Priest on Death Knight
    Paladin on Paladin
    Shaman on overall + Interrupts (In the Death Knights side on the last days Log)

    Is it Tantrum not being handled correctly?

    Should I have to rely on Flash Heal constantly? Often a 2 second Cast Spell does not land in time, and not at all is it enough to cover the enormous ammount of damage that lands.

    I try to save Power Word Shield and Penance for Oh-shit-moments, and obviously am careful with wasting Healing on Gushing Wound and so.

    I healed our Paladin to begin with, and rarely had these issues then. But maybe I am doing it wrong.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-3y7z5g22x3sf2x4k/

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-fz9p0v6bfh85ot71/

    Thank you very much.

  2. #2
    Bloodsail Admiral Shadoweye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanija View Post
    Hey lovely Priests

    Once again I turn to you asking for help, thank you

    My casual Guild find ourselves stuck on Alysrazor. Im beginning to doubt my Healing Skills, and selection of Spells.

    Our Death Knight tank just keeps dying- Taking severe damage compared to our Paladin Tank.

    We have lacked interrupts too. So often one of our Healers have to watch over that, obviously resulting in him being half a Healer.

    But my main concern is my Tank dying. Im not an expert in analyzing Logs. So if one of you - maybe you are bored at work - or looking for something to spend your time on - would be so kind and assist me in this, I would be really grateful

    Basicly Im asking for the errors here. As far as I can see - Our Death knight Tank often takes roughly 180k damage in a matter of a few secounds. Which should be possible for me to heal up.

    Other than that, we lack DPS as well. Is it possible to 2 man heal it?

    I would really like to manage as many Bosses in Firelands before the - way to sudden - nerf Blizzard intend.

    Here are our Logs for the last attempts we had. The first Log includes the most wipes. Not all wipes have been caused by our Death Knight dying first.

    I´m the Discipline Priest you see. Our Healing assignments are:

    Priest on Death Knight
    Paladin on Paladin
    Shaman on overall + Interrupts (In the Death Knights side on the last days Log)

    Is it Tantrum not being handled correctly?

    Should I have to rely on Flash Heal constantly? Often a 2 second Cast Spell does not land in time, and not at all is it enough to cover the enormous ammount of damage that lands.

    I try to save Power Word Shield and Penance for Oh-shit-moments, and obviously am careful with wasting Healing on Gushing Wound and so.

    I healed our Paladin to begin with, and rarely had these issues then. But maybe I am doing it wrong.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-3y7z5g22x3sf2x4k/

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-fz9p0v6bfh85ot71/

    Thank you very much.
    Well... just looking at the DK on your attempts.... He used outbreak 3 times... total in 5 attempts... thats 10% damage reduction not being applied there. Also he is not using his defensive CDs. So he is taking a SHIT LOAD of damage... i would start there.

    Edit: This is coming from the point of view of a death knight.
    No man really becomes a fool until he stops asking questions.

  3. #3
    Hes a dk, if they aint pros at tanking then they will take a shit load of dmg, so my suggestion to you is to remove the dk and get a warrior/paladin no offence

  4. #4
    Bloodsail Admiral Shadoweye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozinyao View Post
    Hes a dk, if they aint pros at tanking then they will take a shit load of dmg, so my suggestion to you is to remove the dk and get a warrior/paladin no offence
    Once again.... coming form a DK, lol.... this is probably the worst fight for Dks in the instance. So i would completely agree with grabbing another tank for just this fight.
    No man really becomes a fool until he stops asking questions.

  5. #5
    Field Marshal Snowee's Avatar
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    Exactly ^ - one thing is healing, other is the tank, especially DK tank, that can't slack hidden behind a shield. Many DKs actually fail at tanking, but this is the fight, where you can see it clearly. Tanks should definitely time def CDs for the chicken-tantrums. Not that experienced as a priest healer, so I won't be of much help there, but as for the dps and 2-healing:

    Yes, it is 2 healable, actually HC Alys you have to use 2 heals. We used different heal setups, disco, shaman, druid, pally, everyone is viable for that fight in any combination.

    Be precise on interrupts, and try to stress the importance of not taking any dmg dps shouldn't take, as your primary role in this fight is to keep your tank alive.

  6. #6
    High Overlord Sne's Avatar
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    Remember that you can pick up 2 feathers = running while casting aswell. Also be sure to bubble him before you cast a greater heal for the extra haste as disc.

    In my group all of the healers heal everything, we don't really have any assignments for this fight since it's very simple and the tanks are the only ones who will take damage except for the aoe phase.
    Remember to try and keep grace x3 aswell since it helps so much. But as many other people already said a no good DK tank on this fight = porcelain.

    Good luck!

  7. #7
    Came into this via the recent posts on the front page so apologies for going a little "DK" in the priest forums.

    I'm a DK tank and my healer on Alys is a priest. I had the exact same issue in that I found it very difficult to balance survivability with DPS to get the hatchling down in time without making it hell for my healer. I found the tantrums were a nightmare with my mastery build and even using all my cooldowns when I could it was still a bit of a lottery as to whether I would live or not before I could get to a worm.

    I decided that the problem was that if I was using all my resources for DPS then I was getting very little from my mastery/resource based defenses. In the end I moved to a full avoidance build instead of mastery as regardless of what I am doing the avoidance is there. Overall it feels MUCH better on this fight and it's much more manageable for both me and my healer. I wear no DPS gear at all and my hatchling is always dead before the next phase (although sometimes it's literally only seconds away!). If you can't get another tank you may want to see if your DK tank is willing to make the change.

    I can't link my armoury, but its Azzuri on eu-bloodhoof. I'm not uber geared or anything and my main spec is actually DPS but we lack a tank in our 10man raid so I pick up all the off set tank pieces and also offtank on the 2tank fights.
    Last edited by Azzuri; 2011-09-15 at 08:07 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanija View Post
    Other than that, we lack DPS as well. Is it possible to 2 man heal it?
    Yes it is, did it last night.
    With me as a feral tank and a new DK tank.
    Our WoL recorder DCed and forgot to turn on the recorder for the kill, so dont have it.
    But my Recount says the same, he takes massive damage compared to me, so if you wanna experiment a bit with 2 healing it, i would suggest too that you replace the DK, untill you are comfeteble(?) with the fight and the 2-man healing part.
    Thou, we did have an Elemental shaman healing a bit in between phases.
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    And anyone who says the alpha model looked like a fox or feline, and that the current model resembles a wolf better needs to be smacked with a National Geographic magazine. Several times.

  9. #9
    I'm only going over your first 5 attempts from Sept 14th:
    1) Your hunter was standing on an egg, and got the fixate on him first. Your DK then died to fire trying to drag the Hatching to a worm
    2 & 3) Your DPS on the ground was not high enough. I think you might've sent the hunter up to the air too? Anyways, adds began chain casting Fieroblast, nothing to do with your DK.
    4) Your DK ran through fire to the worm
    5) Hatching:
    Tantrum at: 22:50:01
    DK dies at: 22:50:06

    5 seconds leans more on the longer end of tantrum durations, though they do happen.

    I've tanked this as a DK/Prot Pally, and healed it as a Holy Pally:
    1) Over the course of the night, your DK took the most damage and # of hits from the lava spew. That combined with a hatchling hitting you is very likely to be a death. It is better to tank through an entire tantrum by popping a 50% dmg reduction CD than it is to run through a lava spew.

    2) Understand Tantrum/Satiated better. While satiated, hatchling cannot proc Tantrum. When satiated is down, Tantrum procs on chance on hit. That means if you use Dancing Rune Weapon/Dodge trinket right when satiated ends, the hatchling has a much lower chance of going into tantrum.

    As a healer, you need a way of watching enemy buffs. You should have the Hatchling targeted or on focus the whole time. You should be healing relaxed when it's satiated, on your toes when satiated goes down, and in emergency spam mode when tantrum is up.

    On your 5th attempt where the DK died, I see in your logs that you were still casting "Heals" during those 5 seconds of Tantrum. That should not be happening. You need to spamming him with flashes, or bombing him with greaters.

    3) Understand the mana mechanic of this fight. Healing the tantrums was quite mana intensive when we started out, however, knowing that you will recover to 100% mana every 3 minutes should take the burden off your shoulders. (If you don't know what I'm talking about, each spell that you DPS her with during burnout will restore 5-10% of your mana. She crashes after tornadoes, you spam a few smites since there's 0 damage during that time, you get full mana). Because of this mechanic, there really is no reason to be holding back on tantrum healing.

    4) Positioning for the tank is really important. Really good tanks can dance circles around the worm while tanking the hatchling really close to it the whole time for instant ends to tantrum. Most tanks cannot, and as a tank or healer, you need to recognize when this tantrum is going to last more than 2 seconds and have a CD available.

    In terms of logistics:
    - Yes you can 2 heal it, but I highly recommend you 3 heal it when learning the fight:
    a) your best healer with your best tank on one side
    b) the other 2 healers with the dk tank on the other side

    - You should definitely only send up 1 person, and have your DPS on the ground focus:
    1) Blazing Talon
    2) Hatchlings
    3) and then Alystrazor

    Your DPS on the ground seems to be putting up quite a bit of damage on Alysrazor, they should be helping on the hatchlings instead.

  10. #10
    Hello if you dont have the option to take another tank and if you have a holy paladin stick him on the dk and you will be on the paladin. Thats what we did when we started on this boss. this fight fight for death knights gets a lot easier with gear. if you dont have the option with a paladin on the death knight try with a a shaman.

    Hope this helps you and good luck.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozinyao View Post
    Hes a dk, if they aint pros at tanking then they will take a shit load of dmg, so my suggestion to you is to remove the dk and get a warrior/paladin no offence
    That is not the answer. First off that kind of mentality does not fit a casual guild at all. Second, DK's are actually very good at tanking everything on normal. It is only on heroics where it becomes a serious issue, and I've tanked 6/7HM as a paladin and 2/7HM on my DK.

  12. #12
    Scarab Lord Zka's Avatar
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    1 feather is enough for the cast-on-the-move effect. Make sure you have it.
    Your DK may not be stellar, but this fight is not good for them. Always cast something at the DK, heal if he's at max, gheal if not. This way you'll maintain a high inspiration and about 100% 3 stack grace uptime, which is very vital if your tank is dying.
    It looks like your dk tank is not maintaining the 2 diseases properly (15-20% uptime in a random log instead of 90-100%), that matters a lot.
    Last edited by Zka; 2011-09-15 at 08:22 AM.

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  13. #13
    quick check on your logs cuz im at work gonna do a full check when im at home

    only checking the dk for now

    day1
    1.wipe
    83% of the dmg he took was from the worms fire which is totally avoidable. tell your dk to not stand in the fire!!

    Lava Spew 219633 83.0 %

    on the other wipes i didnt spot any dmg that could have been avoided (except for the bushfire maybe)
    but tell your dk tank to use cds as soon as the bird gets big and there is no worm to feed him near your tank

    also the boss is easily healable with 2 healers.

    dont be shy to waste your mana in phase1. you will regen to full mana in p3 if you dmg the boss

  14. #14
    High Overlord jamme's Avatar
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    Friendly tips:
    Feed the birds for first 2 tantrums and use a defensive cd for the third. Then the boss comes down, and yada yada, and then repeat. You got pain suppression and the dk has shield wall. Problem solved!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Windry View Post
    I'm only going over your first 5 attempts from Sept 14th:
    1) Your hunter was standing on an egg, and got the fixate on him first. Your DK then died to fire trying to drag the Hatching to a worm
    2 & 3) Your DPS on the ground was not high enough. I think you might've sent the hunter up to the air too? Anyways, adds began chain casting Fieroblast, nothing to do with your DK.
    4) Your DK ran through fire to the worm
    5) Hatching:
    Tantrum at: 22:50:01
    DK dies at: 22:50:06

    5 seconds leans more on the longer end of tantrum durations, though they do happen.

    I've tanked this as a DK/Prot Pally, and healed it as a Holy Pally:
    1) Over the course of the night, your DK took the most damage and # of hits from the lava spew. That combined with a hatchling hitting you is very likely to be a death. It is better to tank through an entire tantrum by popping a 50% dmg reduction CD than it is to run through a lava spew.

    2) Understand Tantrum/Satiated better. While satiated, hatchling cannot proc Tantrum. When satiated is down, Tantrum procs on chance on hit. That means if you use Dancing Rune Weapon/Dodge trinket right when satiated ends, the hatchling has a much lower chance of going into tantrum.

    As a healer, you need a way of watching enemy buffs. You should have the Hatchling targeted or on focus the whole time. You should be healing relaxed when it's satiated, on your toes when satiated goes down, and in emergency spam mode when tantrum is up.

    On your 5th attempt where the DK died, I see in your logs that you were still casting "Heals" during those 5 seconds of Tantrum. That should not be happening. You need to spamming him with flashes, or bombing him with greaters.

    3) Understand the mana mechanic of this fight. Healing the tantrums was quite mana intensive when we started out, however, knowing that you will recover to 100% mana every 3 minutes should take the burden off your shoulders. (If you don't know what I'm talking about, each spell that you DPS her with during burnout will restore 5-10% of your mana. She crashes after tornadoes, you spam a few smites since there's 0 damage during that time, you get full mana). Because of this mechanic, there really is no reason to be holding back on tantrum healing.

    4) Positioning for the tank is really important. Really good tanks can dance circles around the worm while tanking the hatchling really close to it the whole time for instant ends to tantrum. Most tanks cannot, and as a tank or healer, you need to recognize when this tantrum is going to last more than 2 seconds and have a CD available.

    In terms of logistics:
    - Yes you can 2 heal it, but I highly recommend you 3 heal it when learning the fight:
    a) your best healer with your best tank on one side
    b) the other 2 healers with the dk tank on the other side

    - You should definitely only send up 1 person, and have your DPS on the ground focus:
    1) Blazing Talon
    2) Hatchlings
    3) and then Alystrazor

    Your DPS on the ground seems to be putting up quite a bit of damage on Alysrazor, they should be helping on the hatchlings instead.
    This person has given you fantastic advice.

    Remember that you only have 3 burn phases to kill her.

    It is very possible to 2 heal it, as that's what my guild does (and our holy pally even pulled off a mindblowing solo heal for 2-3 minutes after a freak accident killed our resto druid). I wouldn't necessarily recommend it if you are having trouble with people dying. As your guild gets better at the encounter and takes less avoidable damage, 2 healing and sending an extra dps into the air is a fantastic way to end the fight earlier. We barely saw the 2nd burnout.

    What I would do, for you, is have the hunter and resto shaman on the same side, on the ground. If the resto shaman can get the first and third interrupt on every add, the hunter should get the 2nd with Silencing Shot.

    Your boomkin can also help interrupt with Solarbeam, but it MUST be cast while the flame druid is casting Fieroblast, not BEFORE. It will interrupt it, but it will not prevent it. Your dps shaman should be more than capable of getting every single interrupt on their side.

    If a Fieroblast does go off, it's more efficient to cleanse the DoT off than heal through it.

    Your dps should remember to always, always, always be on hatchlings when there are no adds on their side.

    It's sad but true that DKs are the worst tank for that encounter (that doesn't mean they are BAD for it, just that every other tank has an advantage. It's the difference between optimal and viable all over again). Sadly, their tanking style just does not mesh with the requirements of Alysrazor. They don't have high dodge like a druid, and they don't have high block like a paladin or warrior. That doesn't, however, mean it can't be done. Your DK needs to be on the ball with his Death Strike heals and shields to help you out. Also, if your paladin is a stronger tank healer, consider swapping assignments with him. Avoidance trinkets will be great for this fight, as the poster I quoted said.
    Last edited by Daetur; 2011-09-15 at 08:53 AM.

  16. #16
    This is just bad, bad tanking. 36 hits from Brushfire, 16 from Lava Spew? We were doing 4 hours of heroic tries and I had 2 hits of brushfire total. They are very much avoidable.

    As others have said, tantrum is not the biggest issue. A healer can outheal tantrum if you don't take damage from spew or brushfire. The tank needs to learn to strafe parallel to a lava spew to grab a worm even through tantrum though. Also even if tantrum gets late those worms have to be eaten; players shouldn't have to worry about lava spew during tornados. What I do is have some preplanned percentages (85%,60%,45%, 30%) at which I will eat a worm if my bird is hungry whether it is throwing a tantrum or not because the worms need to be eaten. You can pop a big cooldown and take a single tantrum near the end easily (after all you have a decent ammount of time with no druids before the tornados, and on normal Alysrazor herself hits for nothing on p4).

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    This is just bad, bad tanking. 36 hits from Brushfire, 16 from Lava Spew? We were doing 4 hours of heroic tries and I had 2 hits of brushfire total. They are very much avoidable.

    As others have said, tantrum is not the biggest issue. A healer can outheal tantrum if you don't take damage from spew or brushfire. The tank needs to learn to strafe parallel to a lava spew to grab a worm even through tantrum though. Also even if tantrum gets late those worms have to be eaten; players shouldn't have to worry about lava spew during tornados. What I do is have some preplanned percentages (85%,60%,45%, 30%) at which I will eat a worm if my bird is hungry whether it is throwing a tantrum or not because the worms need to be eaten. You can pop a big cooldown and take a single tantrum near the end easily (after all you have a decent ammount of time with no druids before the tornados, and on normal Alysrazor herself hits for nothing on p4).
    I didn't look at the logs from a tanking perspective, but if this is true, then there's one of your big problems right there.

    Everyone, including tanks, need to minimize avoidable damage taken.

  18. #18
    It is supposed to be 2 heal-able to be honest. And 2 good flyers (6 if you're doing 25) to avoid nasty stuff later in the fight, such as the soft enrage..
    If you're mind-set on being casual and not toughening the people up a bit, you won't get past her.

    This IS the fight where nobody can slack, and you can truly see their individual skills. I remember reading something similar to that when FL first came out, and it was right.

  19. #19
    Windry covered up so awesomely that should be put in a "How to tank Alysrazor" sticky thread.

    About the 2 healing...well that fight is easily healable, altho we did it with pala-r druid and r.druid - r.shaman combo. Actually, we gonna try 1 tank - 2 heal to see if that works, since it's not under our HM-radar yet.

  20. #20
    So many great advice and feedback so far, thank you alot, I´ll keep reading

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