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  1. #21
    Trouble is, it's not "just" DI.

    It's Dark Intent, Curse Of Elements and Demonic Pact (10%SP)[yeah i assume 90% of the locks are Demo nowadays, my guildmate is so...:P].
    Sometimes i miss both lock and mage in raid, with no shammies healing either. It's way more then just 2.5k...WAY MORE.

    Btw, as Zuiza said, it's just for vanity...but i'm pretty in love with BIG recount parses so i'm quite sad raid setups are so screwed in 10m enviroments. Really looking forward for 15m, and i do hope i'll see that in 4.3 (very much unlikely but dreams and hopes are free).

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Purpleisbetter View Post
    Trouble is, it's not "just" DI.

    It's Dark Intent, Curse Of Elements and Demonic Pact (10%SP)[yeah i assume 90% of the locks are Demo nowadays, my guildmate is so...:P].
    Sometimes i miss both lock and mage in raid, with no shammies healing either. It's way more then just 2.5k...WAY MORE.

    Btw, as Zuiza said, it's just for vanity...but i'm pretty in love with BIG recount parses so i'm quite sad raid setups are so screwed in 10m enviroments. Really looking forward for 15m, and i do hope i'll see that in 4.3 (very much unlikely but dreams and hopes are free).
    You're upset that we scale with buffs? Did you even raid in Wrath, when it was even worse? There was no redundancy with buffs. We didn't have the overlap of buffs with other classes, but we didn't act like this was a problem unique to our class to QQ for more buffs when we're already in a good place for DPS.

    I mean, seriously. Would you all be happier if every class had the exact same buffs, all had DI to circle-jerk each other, and we had a 1 button spam like Arcane mages? I enjoy the difference between classes, and your inability to get an ideal raid comp is not an issue with the class it's an issue with your raid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Purpleisbetter View Post
    Power Torrent, Volcano and Theralion proc'ed, dots just refreshed. Everyone dies. Just a tank and a boss with around 200k hp. Everyone in vt yells "omg we failed omg omg" and you "don't worry amigos, my dots are steamrolling!". Boss dies while you'd say "Enjoy your loots" with a lot of purple awesomness spilling thru your voice. Just happend yesterday.

    Seriously, i thought i'd reroll warlock for 4.2, but that was the sign that i'm purple inside and i can't reroll. never.

  3. #23
    Mechagnome Exiztence's Avatar
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    Just because something used to be some way doesn't mean it wasn't a wrong design, DI in essence has no place in current world of normalization, you can sweep around all you want how you do good in that raid of yours and how you don't need it and how we are fine without it, and how we are just QQing but the reality is there shouldn't be something of this significance in game at this moment.

    Retired; Muerte of Loot FTW, Exizt of Pacifism, Exiztence of Vortex.

  4. #24
    OP, firstly, we're not reliant on DI. It buffs our damage, great, it just so happens that we get the most benefit from it.

    Mastery buffing a Cooldown is pretty lame to be honest. I'd rather have the RNG of Shadow Orbs (which don't really impact our DPS too much over the course of a fight) than have an entire stat useless for most of a fight, not to mention that, to balance this, Archangel would have to be a huge DPS increase to cover the loss of Shadow Orb DPS. If this were to happen, we'd have incredibly high burst, which would hurt PvP and our DPS would be hurt if proccs don't line up with Archangel.

    The only mana change I'd like to see if to reduce the cost of Devouring Plague by about 30-40% or so. I also wouldn't mind a speed buff, 50% for 4 seconds or something.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuziza View Post
    You're upset that we scale with buffs? Did you even raid in Wrath, when it was even worse? There was no redundancy with buffs. We didn't have the overlap of buffs with other classes, but we didn't act like this was a problem unique to our class to QQ for more buffs when we're already in a good place for DPS.

    I mean, seriously. Would you all be happier if every class had the exact same buffs, all had DI to circle-jerk each other, and we had a 1 button spam like Arcane mages? I enjoy the difference between classes, and your inability to get an ideal raid comp is not an issue with the class it's an issue with your raid.
    No lol, i'm just happy the way we perform, it was just to point out that getting 0 locks in a 10m it's a pretty big loss on your numbers,

    I'm enjoying this current s.priest that i almost feel as purple as i was during the 3 days of 4.0.6 (pre hotfix).

    If i really have to choose, i'd trade some AoE damage for higher single target throughput.

    No seriously, couldn't ask anything more, ma

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Abandon View Post
    I would really like to see Silence and Psychic Horror swap positions in the tree, and possibly a glyph of Silence which removes the silence part and just makes it an interrupt, and lowers the cooldown by 30 seconds.
    1000 times this ^ !!!!

  7. #27
    The Glyph doesn't even have to remove the Silence, just use the "If the target is permanently immune to Silence effects, then" clause.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadbus View Post
    tbh what i would like to see most as a quality of life change is SWD backlash damage it is fine on normal mode fights but once you get to heroics last 25% on boss are usually so damage intensive using SWD might end very bad for us... and after all this is our execute mechanic... that we can't use during execute phase
    Was thinking the same thing just the other day. What is the point of having an execute spell during burn phase with high incoming raid damage if you can't justifiably take the risk of using it? I understand if they want to keep the backlash above 25%, but when the boss is lower than 25% the backlash could be removed.

  9. #29
    DI should be changed. Two equally geared shadow priests in a raid, only one DI, one priest will be leaps and bounds ahead of the other in the charts. Speaking as the one who gets the DI, I think it's wrong that one buff can prove to be the difference of anywhere between 2 and 6k dps. Priests, locks and raid leaders would know the reason for the disparity, but not necessarily the other 20 people in the raid. Vanity or not, it's a bit silly.
    Dragonslayer Hoddie - pretending to know what I'm doing!

  10. #30
    Herald of the Titans Keosen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoddie View Post
    DI should be changed. Two equally geared shadow priests in a raid, only one DI, one priest will be leaps and bounds ahead of the other in the charts..
    That not entirely true gear + DI can be outdpsed by an overall better SP without meaning the DI-one is terrible.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoddie View Post
    DI should be changed. Two equally geared shadow priests in a raid, only one DI, one priest will be leaps and bounds ahead of the other in the charts. Speaking as the one who gets the DI, I think it's wrong that one buff can prove to be the difference of anywhere between 2 and 6k dps. Priests, locks and raid leaders would know the reason for the disparity, but not necessarily the other 20 people in the raid. Vanity or not, it's a bit silly.
    This is true if DI would put one priest to enough haste to get extra ticks on VT and/or DP... otherwise no not really. This goes even more so if one priest has more haste than the other one and you put DI on the priest with less haste they would equal out pretty evenly. However, if you put it on the priest with more haste... well heck why should it be surprising that one would do more dps? So no 2 priests in the same raid with the same abilities giving one DI will not make that one automatically to a ton more dps. There are compounding factors.

    Of course, if you have access to some logs where this situation exists and you think would prove that giving one priest and not the other DI would equate to 2k-6k (that's quite a range btw) more dps please do link them, because I would be really interested in see'ing it workout that way.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    This is true if DI would put one priest to enough haste to get extra ticks on VT and/or DP... otherwise no not really.
    I don't understand this... I get the theory about the haste plateaus, and I've seen the Simcraft graph plots, but I think too much stress is placed on getting the exact amount of haste to ensure an extra tick. A bit less or a bit more is just as good, after all who lets dots fall off, so in practice that final extra tick is rarely ever seen. Haste is almost always going to benefit, and in my experience DI is worth a good 2k at least. I guessed the upper limit at 6k but I don't think I'll be far off.

    I'd love to show logs that demonstrate my point but I don't get on with wol, be my guest to take a look at my guild's logs if you like, maybe you can show me that it's all in my head.
    Dragonslayer Hoddie - pretending to know what I'm doing!

  13. #33
    Hoddie, refreshing a DoT before the final tick just adds that tick onto the beginning of the next timer, meaning that you never miss that last tick. Even if that was the case and you did miss the last tick from DoT clipping, you'd miss a tick regardless of how much Haste you have. Say an ability ticks 4 times. With some Haste, it now ticks 5 times. If you clipped it and missed the last tick, you're still going from 3 ticks to 4 ticks. And as Cookiematico also pointed out, since reaching the extra tick also increases the duration of the buff back to full, you free up a GCD.

    I don't think I've explained this very well, but the point is, extra DoT ticks are very benefitial to our DPS.
    Last edited by Erto; 2011-09-20 at 05:32 PM.

  14. #34
    Do not forget that the recipient receives 3% extra periodic damage (assuming the lock keeps a steady 3 stack up, which he should) such as VT, SWP, DPlague and mind flay. The absence of DI between priest A and priest B, in equal gear and skill will be clearly notable on a boss fight. DI also allows the priest, especially near the extra tick, to push out more dps because more gcd's is freed up.

    So yes, the difference in dps with and without it can range between 2k or higher, depending on the fight etc (especially notable in HM fights where competing for spots)

    edit: to explain the poster above me, if you gain an extra tick you can use that extra tick to cast something else that deals damage before recasting the dot. mindflay, mindblast, etc.
    Last edited by Cookiematico; 2011-09-20 at 05:31 PM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiematico View Post
    Do not forget that the recipient receives 3% extra periodic damage (assuming the lock keeps a steady 3 stack up, which he should) such as VT, SWP, DPlague and mind flay. The absence of DI between priest A and priest B, in equal gear and skill will be clearly notable on a boss fight. DI also allows the priest, especially near the extra tick, to push out more dps because more gcd's is freed up.

    So yes, the difference in dps with and without it can range between 2k or higher, depending on the fight etc
    No one's disputing the benefits of Dark Intent, it's just that the OP seems to think that DI is needed to make us competitive.

  16. #36
    Short answer: When you gain another tick on a VT/DP you have the same amount of duration of spell but more ticks happen during that time so the rate at which damage is being done is higher and it increases your DPS.

    Longer answer: Specifically with VT, it's duration shortens a little as you add more haste which results in having to recast it more often. So the ticks do start happening slightly faster as you add more haste, but you have to refresh it more often and that eats up globals which you could be doing other things. Once you cross the threshold to get a new tick add VT goes back to 15 secs, but the ticks still happen more often because you are now squeezing in more ticks per 15 seconds. There is a sweet spot after gaining the extra tick where the duration will line up very well with everything else and you won't have to be making choices of waiting to pop AA so you can refresh VT, or waiting on MB, etc... that translates into more dps because your GCD's are being used more effectively.

    I'll see if I can look at some of those logs and see if I can see if there is anything else going on other than who has DI and who doesn't.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Erto View Post
    Hoddie, refreshing a DoT before the final tick just adds that tick onto the beginning of the next timer
    But that's my point, whether haste gives you enough for 3.9, 4 or 4.1 ticks, it's all good because the dot never falls off, refreshing it just extends the duration.

    Edit: just read the post above about reducing VY durations, which explains the 'plateaus' but whether or not DI bumps you to the next plateau, you should see at least a 2k increase in your dps under normal circumstances, and as someone pointed out above, equally geared and skilled priests will see a pretty big difference if one has the buff and the other doesn't. Vanity? Perhaps. Does attributing the difference to vanity mean it doesn't matter? I don't think so.

    Look, if this buff simply gave a boost to whichever character gets it, fair enough. But because it was always given to shadow priests, and because the benefit was always so noticeable, our dps was reined in in the expectation that most raid groups would have DI and that it would be given to a shadow priest. In that respect, the OP is bang on the money, if your group doesn't have DI, your shadow priest is effectively held back through no fault of his own.

    Spelling errors due to fat finger syndrome (posting from a mobile).
    Last edited by Hoddie; 2011-09-20 at 06:37 PM.
    Dragonslayer Hoddie - pretending to know what I'm doing!

  18. #38
    Ok Hoddie here you go. I used this http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-ow...?s=1766&e=2026 to compare.

    I also totally cheated and used comparebot http://raidbots.com/comparebot/4e78d...100070a#damage hopefully the link will work for you

    So the first thing I notice looking at that chart is that other two spriests had 5.8 and 6 hits of MB per minute while you only had 3.5. Which means they are casting MB twice as much you are and is a good bit of a dps loss for you.

    The next thing to check out is your DoT uptimes compared to them. For VT, both of their uptimes are in the high to mid 90's while your is 79.4%. Sw: p they both were at 98% uptime while you were only at 80%. DP was by far your best uptime at 92%. So at least on this fight you definitely could up your dps by having better uptimes. Also it looks like you could use some practice at clipping MF. Idk if you have seen this thread but it might help you some there.

    All 3 of you only dps'ed Shannox so that helps this to be a real equal comparison.

    Your Dark Eveangelism uptime is low which probably has a lot with you not mind flaying a lot. Another interesting thing... your proc rate on orbs is nearly identical on to yours but their uptimes on ES are about 20% higher.

    The last thing is looking at the armories... Xzbit has less SP than you and more Haste (he's over 30% without DI) but aside from that you guys are pretty close. The difference between you has a lot more to do with playstyle than having DI vs not having DI.

    Now as far as between Seachan and Xzbit.. their is a 2kdps difference between those two... however, Saechan's DoT uptimes are better than Xzbit's. I can't look at gear sadly though because it looks like Saechan is in healing gear atm So it is hard to say how much of their difference has to do with DI.

  19. #39
    Yeah I think that's where I was running around trying to get the legendary gem, and though my RL would kill me if he read this, I was actually alt-tabbing to Wowhead mid-fight to check what I was supposed to do lol - I was 4th on the list to get the legendary and hadn't expected to raid that night so hadn't checked what the quest was all about. Plus I may have also been life-gripping the OT I can't remember. Anyways, long story short, probably not the best date's logs to check, though I very much appreciate your doing so.
    Dragonslayer Hoddie - pretending to know what I'm doing!

  20. #40
    Ah lol that will do it. It's still a good comparison for the other two spriests though since they fall into has DI doesn't have DI situation. Wish I could look at the other guy's gear though. Anywho, about 2k difference I think is on the high side though. What I meant before is that if there is ever 6k difference between someone who has DI and someone who doesn't then there is probably something else going on there.

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