Alysrazor Guide on 350k+ Ignite/Comb by Logoz

[noremac]

I am looking through that parse right now and it is really interesting. The Ignite you had rolling on Alysrazor from tornado phase was only doing 44k a tick. After burnout the Ignite from a single Pyroblast was already doing 39k a tick, after the second Pyroblast it was up to 88k, and then 136k, it just kept going up and up like that.

I am trying to figure out the exact numbers to see why waiting until after the burnout to apply Ignite makes such a big difference, but it is going to be hard to tell. Especially since you got the 15% damage from Tricks twice at the very beginning of the burnout phase.

[LogozRR]

I am looking through that parse right now and it is really interesting. The Ignite you had rolling on Alysrazor from tornado phase was only doing 44k a tick. After burnout the Ignite from a single Pyroblast was already doing 39k a tick, after the second Pyroblast it was up to 88k, and then 136k, it just kept going up and up like that.

I am trying to figure out the exact numbers to see why waiting until after the burnout to apply Ignite makes such a big difference, but it is going to be hard to tell. Especially since you got the 15% damage from Tricks twice at the very beginning of the burnout phase.

Rogues glyph Tricks of the Trade, so it's only 10% dmg, but yeah, it will still be hard to tell.

[noremac]

For me to figure out if these numbers are accurate or not I would need to know exactly how much mastery you had during this time. Since it would be really difficult to find that out I really couldn't take this any further.

Here is a skimmed down version of the log (showing only Ignite tics, Pyroblast direct damage (removed DoT damage), and Combustion damage.)

[21:46:54.516] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *45212*
[21:46:55.422] Logoz Ignite Alysrazor 51029
[21:46:56.841] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *46039*
[21:46:57.399] Logoz Ignite Alysrazor 44000
[21:46:58.480] Alysrazor gains Burnout from Alysrazor
[21:46:59.471] Logoz Ignite Alysrazor 44000
[21:47:01.431] Logoz's Ignite fades from Alysrazor
[21:47:01.499] Logoz Ignite Alysrazor 44001
[21:47:06.035] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *69147*
[21:47:06.588] Alysrazor afflicted by Ignite from Logoz
[21:47:07.023] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *87533*
[21:47:08.083] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *97537*
[21:47:08.660] Logoz Ignite Alysrazor 39305
[21:47:09.116] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *96876*
[21:47:10.157] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *97260*
[21:47:10.649] Logoz Ignite Alysrazor 88077
[21:47:11.062] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *96676*
[21:47:12.310] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *96628*
[21:47:12.660] Logoz Ignite Alysrazor 136729
[21:47:13.068] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *97589*
[21:47:14.214] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *97177*
[21:47:14.644] Logoz Ignite Alysrazor 185451
[21:47:15.305] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *97216*
[21:47:16.267] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *88347*
[21:47:16.649] Logoz Ignite Alysrazor 234217
[21:47:17.399] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *88705*
[21:47:18.313] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *92549*
[21:47:18.675] Logoz Ignite Alysrazor 278633
[21:47:19.236] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *81093*
[21:47:20.301] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *81173*
[21:47:20.709] Logoz Ignite Alysrazor 322193
[21:47:21.267] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *81067*
[21:47:22.323] Logoz casts Combustion on Alysrazor
[21:47:22.325] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *80608*
[21:47:22.580] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *28792*
[21:47:22.775] Logoz Ignite Alysrazor 362894
[21:47:23.296] Alysrazor afflicted by Combustion from Logoz
[21:47:23.574] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381068*
[21:47:23.687] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381068*
[21:47:23.933] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:24.049] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:24.246] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381068*
[21:47:24.469] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:24.673] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:24.673] Logoz Ignite Alysrazor 397663
[21:47:24.865] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:25.009] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381068*
[21:47:25.234] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *80466*
[21:47:25.234] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381068*
[21:47:25.314] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:25.524] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:25.726] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:25.903] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381068*
[21:47:26.128] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:26.128] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *80564*
[21:47:26.241] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:26.470] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381068*
[21:47:26.669] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381068*
[21:47:26.669] Logoz Ignite Alysrazor 305505
[21:47:26.866] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:27.068] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381068*
[21:47:27.161] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *81217*
[21:47:27.161] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:27.349] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:27.576] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:27.695] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:27.930] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381068*
[21:47:28.160] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381068*
[21:47:28.160] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *80245*
[21:47:28.269] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381068*
[21:47:28.543] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381068*
[21:47:28.643] Logoz Ignite Alysrazor 209723
[21:47:28.643] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:28.854] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:29.002] Alysrazor's Burnout fades from Alysrazor
[21:47:29.002] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:29.287] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381068*
[21:47:29.287] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *81013*
[21:47:29.377] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381068*
[21:47:29.579] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:29.814] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381068*
[21:47:29.967] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:30.073] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381068*
[21:47:30.183] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *51664*
[21:47:30.393] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:30.531] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381068*
[21:47:30.609] Logoz Ignite Alysrazor 157271
[21:47:30.718] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:30.843] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381068*
[21:47:31.025] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:31.326] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:31.326] Logoz Pyroblast Alysrazor *51078*
[21:47:31.431] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381068*
[21:47:31.623] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:31.775] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381068*
[21:47:31.998] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:32.106] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:32.403] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381068*
[21:47:32.514] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:32.635] Logoz Ignite Alysrazor 179409
[21:47:32.635] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:32.968] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381068*
[21:47:33.074] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381069*
[21:47:33.277] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381068*
[21:47:33.359] Logoz's Combustion fades from Alysrazor
[21:47:33.436] Logoz Combustion Alysrazor *381068*

Also since Combustion is hitting the same whether she is in or out of the burn phase it is safe to assume that it doesn't benefit from the 50% damage increase.

---------- Post added 2011-09-16 at 07:31 PM ----------

I just went back through our guild's logs from the other night and noticed something. I remember that me and the other mage had 1 attempt that we did huge DPS compared to every other attempt. We would normally be around 70-80k but we each had an attempt where we were over 120k. I went back through the logs and sure enough both me and the other mage had our Ignites fall off when she crashed and applied a fresh Ignite while she was in her Burnout phase. So I would have to say that this is the way to go and there is no reason to stress over rolling your Ignites through tornado phases.

Also since the Combustion will hit her for the same amount whether she is in the Burnout phase or not it would be best to wait until the last possible moment to use Combustion right before she hits 50 energy, that way you get all that time to build your Ignite up as high as you can. Although if your Razor buff falls off mid-Combustion you will lose a lot of DPS so that should be considered as well.

[risskel]

It might be that the 50% from burnout phase rolls through due to how combustion damage works.

[Aantu]

I’m pretty sure that the large variance in ignite damage is due to the way ignite is calculated. Even with large amounts of mastery that brings ignite damage over 80% and 100k pyroblast crits every second, your ignite reservoir should plateau at around 450k, which would mean 150k ticks.

Looking at some logs, I think the reason that sometimes it is possible to go well above this number is because of a form of ignite munching, somewhat similar to what happens when you used to have your ignite munched from having two crits that add to ignite at roughly the same time. This form of munching, however, is beneficial, and happens when you crit with a spell (in this case, pyroblast) shortly before ignite ticks.

What happens is when you crit, your new ignite is not immediately calculated. It takes about half of a second for the game to check your character for the pertinent talents. Then ignite is calculated from whatever your crit was and added to the ignite reservoir as it existed when your critical strike hit. Therefore, if you crit approximately .2 to .5 seconds before ignite ticks, you can get a “free ignite tick” that doesn’t take away from your ignite reservoir. If you do this with successive ticks of ignite, it is possible to build huge ignites that take 40% (modified by mastery) of EVERY critical hit you achieved since when ignite was first on the boss. Looking at some logs, it appears that this is what is happening to allow some mages to get over 1M ignites (333k+ ticks).

The reason that letting ignite drop before the burn phase works so well is because you are standing still. If you are standing still and under the haste cap for pyroblast, your spells will be hitting the boss approximately every one second. Since ignite always ticks every two seconds from when it was first applied, ignite and pyroblast should line up in the same manner every time ignite ticks. This can be great (if all ignite ticks are coming .2 to .5 seconds after pyroblast crits), which leads to ignites that keep stacking indefinitely, or bad (if the ignite ticks are coming at any other time), which means your ignites will never tick for more than 150k.

While it seems pretty random, it should be possible to achieve the “good” set of circumstances every week. Ignite will tick approximately 2.5 seconds after the first critical strike. If you let ignite drop before burn phase and didn’t move, your pyroblasts should be coming approximately .5 seconds before ignite ticks every time. While that is fine if you plan on getting lucky, the ideal time for pyroblast to crit would be .3 or .4 before ignite ticks. You should be able to do this by delaying one pyroblast about .2 seconds after you start your burn. If you are confident in your reaction time and button pressing skills you could try to time it, but what I plan on doing is just moving back a set amount of yards (I’ll need to figure out how much) after I cast my first pyroblast in the burn phase.

Also big thanks to Logoz for his work on this fight and all other theorycrafting he does.

[noremac]

I thought Ignite only ticks 2 times? It is a 4 second dot that ticks every 2 seconds right? So one tick is at 2 and the other at 4.

[Aantu]

I thought Ignite only ticks 2 times? It is a 4 second dot that ticks every 2 seconds right? So one tick is at 2 and the other at 4.

When you refresh ignite it extends the duration to (4 seconds + however long until the next ignite tick) and then ticks 3 times at 4s, 2s, and 0s remaining.

[noremac]

So what does the movement have to do with it? 90% of the Alysrazor fight you are able to cast while moving so I don't see why it makes a difference if you are moving or standing still because you are still able to cast at the same rate. The only time you can't cast while moving is directly after the Burnout phase after your feather buff drops off.

On a side note could it have anything to do with spell travel time? From what I have read on ignite munching it is a more prominent occurrence when you get a spell crit on a target while a second spell is currently traveling to the target. When I am in the air flying I can see up to 3-4 Pyroblasts in the air between me and the boss at any given time, but the difference being when she lands you can stack right on her... meaning that the travel time of the spell will be almost nothing.

[Aantu]

So what does the movement have to do with it? 90% of the Alysrazor fight you are able to cast while moving so I don't see why it makes a difference if you are moving or standing still because you are still able to cast at the same rate. The only time you can't cast while moving is directly after the Burnout phase after your feather buff drops off.

On a side note could it have anything to do with spell travel time? From what I have read on ignite munching it is a more prominent occurrence when you get a spell crit on a target while a second spell is currently traveling to the target. When I am in the air flying I can see up to 3-4 Pyroblasts in the air between me and the boss at any given time, but the difference being when she lands you can stack right on her... meaning that the travel time of the spell will be almost nothing.

The reason standing still is important is due to consistency and the cast time of pyroblast. When you are flying around you will certainly be able to duplicate the "positive ignite munching" effect, but since you are moving around, your pyroblasts are not going to hit the target every 1 second due to travel time, and therefore it would be exceptionally hard to get a string of 5 or more ignite ticks that come right after a pyroblast crit. While you are standing still, it is easy to pull off a string of 5 or more ignite ticks that come right after pyroblast because the global cooldown is one second and ignite ticks every two seconds. Therefore, pyroblasts should be hitting the boss nearly exactly every second as long as you don't move (as moving combined with travel time would skew the timing one way or the other). If pyroblasts are hitting every one second and ignite ticking every two, you are assured that ignite will always tick at the same time in relation to pyroblast crits, for better or worse.

[Deleted]

thanks for very informative post.
i was thinking about this encounter a lot but never though taking 6sec break really gonna let those ignites roll higher(except for saving proc items)
continue with good work

[tenub]

220k dps and a 10:15 kill? Did you have like 5 trials who died in the encounter too? :s

[Hinalover]

220k dps and a 10:15 kill? Did you have like 5 trials who died in the encounter too? :s

They only sent up the 2 mages for the air phase, that is it. Even then they still brought the boss down to 48% on the first air phase.

[Deleted]

Anyway yea I see what your doing there. Just I'm wondering why you say 17 stacks? I know Ignite Munching can get bad (I wsa hitting 19% ignite Munching myself and I do not spec into Hot Streak). I know I was switching from fireball to Pryo when I was hitting 1-1.04 second Fireball casts (12-13 stacks if I remember correctly). Granted I was getting targeted with Dark Intent so that may have helped a bit. But yea I know I was hitting the 1 second mark before the first Firestorm.

Just because your FB is getting GCD capped doesn't mean your 2 sec pyro is doing more dps than FB. Go do the math.

[Hinalover]

Just because your FB is getting GCD capped doesn't mean your 2 sec pyro is doing more dps than FB. Go do the math.

Actually when I switch over, I'm usually at 1.45 second pyroblast cast time. I would have to have only 5 stacks instead of the 12-13 stacks of Blazing Power that I usually do, to be casting 2 second Pyros, so get your facts straight. In case you didn't know, the Blazing Power Haste buff is multiplicative of your other haste buffs:

1 + Haste Rating converted / 100 * 1.05 Haste from Boomkin/Shadow Priest * 1.03 Dark Intent * 1.03 Nethwind Presence * 1 + (.08 * # of stacks of Blazing Power up to 25 stacks)

Then you divide that from 3.5 for pyro or 2.5 for Fireball to get your new cast times.

Secondly, don't ASSUME I don't know what I'm doing. I probably have put in more attempts on heroic Alysrazor (which this guide is designed for, since you spend more time up in the air on heroic than you do on normal) than you probably ever will. I knew the 1 second GCD was about where I should be before switching. Based on this posting on Elitist Jerks

http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t110326-...2/#post1971571

I'm well within the threshold of where my Pyro casting should be. Given that that posting was made back in July, before the updated gear was implemented in SimC, the current posting DPE has Pyroblast at 53398, and Fireball at 30854, meaning the effective cast time of the Pyroblast needs to drop below 1.73 seconds or 9 stacks for me. Also, I did do some math, yea 17 stacks would bring Logoz's fireball cast time to 0.88 second cast time. However, due to the fact that I'm sitting with 300 more haste rating than he does, I would have to switch over at 16 stacks; or the first ring after the first Firestorm; to get the same effect. So either get your facts straight or don't make stupid comments that make you look bad.

Lastly, like I said later, I only killed her once and I still have room I can improve upon.

[Vargur]

WTB shadow priest guide. D:

[turlockmike]

Nice guide. I was able to use your advice and get 220k crits on the boss (i'm not closely geared to you) and that was awesome.