FL nerfs - I just need a worthy explanation to get closure

[Fyersing]

As bad as it sounds, I wish they'd implement a toggle-on / toggle-off buff much like ICC's Chill of the Throne.

I think one of the pulls to running old content, for me anyways, was always to take old characters through the content while it was still tough. You know, like when BC came out and most people still couldn't do Naxx or BWL with less than 35 people at level 70. It is just a shame that future generations of WoW players will have to try and explain how tough and interesting some of these fights were because they'll be able to come back at level 90 and wreck Heroic Ragnaros with 7 people who have a collective IQ or 400...

[Deleted]

It's like Blizzard are doing stupid shit to see how much people put up with.

[Deleted]

Many of you are missing the point. For one, I'm not going to quit over this, and never have I stated that I would. Also, this isn't nerdraging which is obvious from the lack of capsing and leet-speek. I'm just genuinely baffled and trying to make sense of it, which is why I'm turning to you. If you can't supply me with a good enough explanation but instead want to call me elitist and leave the game, please save your time (and mine) and move on!

Thisisanalt: This is not about "missing the progression train", "QQ" or "having and edge in T13". And you've yet to present me with any explanation for anything. Please ventilate your frustrations elsewhere!

Judge Malthred: That's actually a good example, however; if they now realize that people won't be at the level they want them to be for 4.3, the problem can just as easily be solved by finetuning 4.3! This would remove the need for forum QQ (like what you are reading right now :P) completely.
Also, I would be totally fine with additional nerfs to HM Rag. But when you say "where only the elite few groups from around the WORLD have a chance at clearing anything" I have to disagree. According to wowprogress.com, around 1700 guilds in the world have cleared 6/7 and are struggling with ragnaros. Does that say "only a few groups are able to clear anything" to you?

[Summer]

Summerwind "We're working on our 4th HM kill and I'm pretty happy with the changes. Mostly because recruitment on our server is currently impossible and some good players quitting has us in a difficult place in terms of finding replacements.

That's just me, but there you go, one example of a person working on HM's who does not mind. I do enjoy the challenge, but not bashing my head for weeks on end on relatively simple bosses because I had to bring in another ZA/ZG geared newbie... "


That's one very specific example where it's actually benificial for hard mode raiding. It does not make up for all the other servers where recruitment isn't dead and bringing za/zg geared noobs isn't on the map.

Of course, but I you said ""I have a hard time seeing how anybody currently working on hard modes will find these nerfs improving their enjoyment of the game. " Just giving you that "anybody" :P

[qactuar]

What's to complain about? People just want loot. Nerfs make it easier to get, so everyone's happy.

Or to put it another way: Who here is really running heroics because of the "challenge"? From what I can tell, T11 heroics are still harder than most of FL, but I don't see anybody doing those anymore. Why? 'cause 378/391 > 372, that's why.

[Dread Pirate Roberts]

This game is constantly moving forward. It doesn't cater to you alone; there are 11 million over subscribers. Some of us are done with the Firelands and want new content, some are working on the Firelands but wouldn't mind new content, and ALL of us love getting new content.

Things are moving much faster in Cata. If you didn't complete Firelands before the nerfs it's still obviously there for you to complete. Your world 3,000th Heroic Rag kill is no longer a big deal so don't say we should all suffer because you're guild is "so close."

[Biggayshammy]

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like

[Moozart]

Mod warning: keep your cool. - Herecius

Up until this point I've been convinced that Blizzard were going to change their mind concerning the nerfs, as this hasn't happened, I'm turning to you for possible answers.

Let me also add that I'm focusing on the hardmode nerfs, the normal mode nerfs I'm fine with.

Now before I get into this, even though I know this topic has been discussed to death already, I still don't feel like I've gotten a good enough explanation. I'm just posting what I've gathered as the possible scenarios/reasons for this nerf is coming, while at the same time explaining why I don't feel they make sense. What I'm looking for is a logical explanation, presented in an orderly manner. I know I sound like your 4th-grade teacher, just let's not turn this in to the all-out flamewar as some of the other threads have become.


Explanations I've read in threads here and there:

"All players should have a chance to see the firelands-content."
This isn't a reason to also nerf the hardmodes as well as there is very little in the hard mode encounters (compared to normals) that can be considered "content". We have the 4th phase in rag (which very few will get to see in any case), as well as a couple of new small adds in various fights. As such, there isn't really any reason to nerf normals AND hardmodes just to allow every1 to see the content, is there?

"If you haven't cleared 6/7HC yet, you're not good enough and it shouldn't matter for you."
Well, it does matter. Ask any person who's currently working on his/hers 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th kill in FL if they are looking forward to this change. The reason they're doing it at the hard mode level is that they enjoy the added challenge, right? I have a hard time seeing how anybody currently working on hard modes will find these nerfs improving their enjoyment of the game.

This isn't supposed to be a "omg, I'm so l33t I hate blizz nref my hardmode game so all the baddies can come get l00t"-thread, I'm a relatively new player and don't consider myself to be better than anyone else. However, my guild has been working on heroic baleroc 25MHC (5/7HC) for quite a while, and it would just be such a huge downer to see him topple over solely due to the nerfs and not actual improvements from our side.

"Since so few people have managed to down ragnaros normal, blizzard wants as many as possible to be geared with 391 loot so they can stand a better chance to take down deathwing in 4.3"
This is the main reason I've heard, and for the most part the most convincing one. However, isn't another solution just to tone down deathwing normal mode and allow more people to down him through that way? Surely they are still switching numbers in 4.3, seeing as it's not yet on PTR.

Again, none of these explanations quite "cut it" for me. If someone was to explain any possible, logical, reasoning on why these nerfs are necessary for the hard modes as well, I would greatly appriciate it!

EDIT - Typo

honestly bro the only explanation you need is simply... blizzard want too. i mean that's the jist of it.

[Deleted]

In the end if you were good enough you would of killed Rag by now.

[navai]

You won't be able to kill them the first night you attempt them, but meh who expects that anyways?

Shannox and Domo heroic say Hi.

Both went down within 3 attempts. Nerfing those encounters would make me lol. They were a joke when I first killed them, they are even more of a joke now.

[Posaune]

Theres nerfing something, and then there is nerfing something to the extent of how they did tier 11 normals. Half of the mechanics have been made irrelevent.

This is a pretty big factor.

I'm hoping the hard-mode changes are simply health nerfs, and maybe boss damage (literal, boss hitting the tank for X) and not mechanic changes.

We put together a random 10 man last week to finish out some achievements from t11, and being able to just completely ignore every mechanic on every fight and be fine is ridiculous. If that's what it's going to be like at the hardmode level...that's annoying.

I imagine normal nerfs will be to mechanics, making them equivalent to the kind of nerf t11 saw, and hoping hardmode nerfs are only to health. Still allows for a quicker progression through it but doesn't allow guilds with no business taking out a fight to do so just because they can ignore what they shouldn't ignore.

AKA, if Alysrazor's tornado's only take out 25% of your health or her breath doesn't kill you in two hits....that'd be a silly change.

[Deleted]

How bout this Explanation ?

We make the Content easier to reduce the loss of Subs which is critical. Perhaps People decide to stay.

[MonsieuRoberts]

Instead of instituting a scaling Deathwing buff, they're gearing everyone.

Now we all get some H Tier 13 for DW.

[Warriorguy]

We're working on our 4th HM kill and I'm pretty happy with the changes. Mostly because recruitment on our server is currently impossible and some good players quitting has us in a difficult place in terms of finding replacements.

That's just me, but there you go, one example of a person working on HM's who does not mind. I do enjoy the challenge, but not bashing my head for weeks on end on relatively simple bosses because I had to bring in another ZA/ZG geared newbie...

How is it still a challenge though if you dont do it on the proper difficulty. When you all down whatever heroic boss how will you feel a sense of accomplishment knowing the only reason you did it was because Blizzard lowered the difficulty so the more average gamer can do it.

[SoulPoetry]

they want more people raiding and less people quitting. unfortunately nerfing HP and damage of a tier mostly about gimmicks and avoiding stuff won't really help that much.

[qactuar]

How is it still a challenge though if you dont do it on the proper difficulty. When you all down whatever heroic boss how will you feel a sense of accomplishment knowing the only reason you did it was because Blizzard lowered the difficulty so the more average gamer can do it.

The accomplishment is all the shiny purpz at the end, duh.

[Deleted]

This game is constantly moving forward. It doesn't cater to you alone; there are 11 million over subscribers. Some of us are done with the Firelands and want new content, some are working on the Firelands but wouldn't mind new content, and ALL of us love getting new content.

Things are moving much faster in Cata. If you didn't complete Firelands before the nerfs it's still obviously there for you to complete. Your world 3,000th Heroic Rag kill is no longer a big deal so don't say we should all suffer because you're guild is "so close."

Why does what I'm saying have anything to do with the pace which we are getting new content at? I also don't feel it's about my epeen or getting the Xth kill on ragnaros. It's about working towards something for along time, and having the satisfaction of that taken away from you since it's no longer as meaningful. Again, nerf HC rag to the ground, I don't mind! It's the rest of the hardmodes I'm thinking about.

[damntree]

Wow. This means a full 25 man of zandie geared noobs will down heroic rag next week right? Most people still won't do heroics, your epeen is safe.

[Warriorguy]

What's to complain about? People just want loot. Nerfs make it easier to get, so everyone's happy.

Or to put it another way: Who here is really running heroics because of the "challenge"? From what I can tell, T11 heroics are still harder than most of FL, but I don't see anybody doing those anymore. Why? 'cause 378/391 > 372, that's why.

Ummm there are loads of people doing FL for the "challenge" and any normal modes are just a breeze through. I'd love to see the reasoning behind T11 reg being harder than Fl reg. 20% Nerf makes T11 a joke while FL reg people struggle from anywhere to the 5th boss to the 2nd boss ( Depending on the order you do them in.)

---------- Post added 2011-09-18 at 12:17 PM ----------

The accomplishment is all the shiny purpz at the end, duh.

I think you missed out on the memo of Epics not being epics anymore.

[Herecius]

Why does what I'm saying have anything to do with the pace which we are getting new content at? I also don't feel it's about my epeen or getting the Xth kill on ragnaros. It's about working towards something for along time, and having the satisfaction of that taken away from you since it's no longer as meaningful. Again, nerf HC rag to the ground, I don't mind! It's the rest of the hardmodes I'm thinking about.

To play devil's advocate (as I feel neither strongly against or for the upcoming nerfs, nerfs that we don't really know all that much about to be honest), I must ask, why is it ok to nerf HC Rag to the ground, but not the rest? Is it because he's the last boss and you feel that it is far too unrealistically beyond the reach of most guilds, to the point of being unfair? Just kinda curious.