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  1. #581
    Stood in the Fire
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    It felt crap do get beaten by an Assassination Rogue with alittle less gear than me with the daggers and beat me with 4k DPS after they removed the MG buff. The MG buff was good enough to weight up the IP and KS loss imo

  2. #582
    Any step by step guide for Legendaries? Over stage 1?

  3. #583
    They would make it easier by just changing the speed of the dagger to 2.6 if you are Combat Specced(if that's even possible).

  4. #584
    Quote Originally Posted by Callandry View Post
    They would make it easier by just changing the speed of the dagger to 2.6 if you are Combat Specced(if that's even possible).
    This has been suggested probably over a dozen times in various threads, and it as always completely fails to fix the problem. Focus on the weapon type, not the speed. The weighted blades was not intended to really counter out the speed difference but the weapon type difference.

  5. #585
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    This has been suggested probably over a dozen times in various threads, and it as always completely fails to fix the problem. Focus on the weapon type, not the speed. The weighted blades was not intended to really counter out the speed difference but the weapon type difference.
    Unless I am reading your statement wrong, the weighted blades was to fix the MH weapon speed. It being a dagger or a mace for combat doesn't mean anything, only the speed. With a faster speed, means SS,RV, MG, and KS all hit for less. The weighted blades was to help counter act the negatives of the fast speed.

  6. #586
    wondering this also

  7. #587
    Quote Originally Posted by RogueDurr View Post
    Unless I am reading your statement wrong, the weighted blades was to fix the MH weapon speed. It being a dagger or a mace for combat doesn't mean anything, only the speed. With a faster speed, means SS,RV, MG, and KS all hit for less. The weighted blades was to help counter act the negatives of the fast speed.
    Yes and no. Yes, a fast MH weapon isn't optimal, and daggers are faster than other weapon types. No, because in fact the real reason of not using dagger for combat is the strike normalization. Weapon type doesn't mean much, UNTIL you talk about daggers. Sinister Strike hits are calculated through a static formula (used also for other istants), and weapon speed in this formula is NOT the speed of the weapon, but a standard one - (Attack Power / 14) * Normalized Weapon Speed + Weapon Damage % by level + Damage by level.

    That NWS is calculated as 2.4 for 1h weapons, and 1.7 for daggers. So, even if the dagger was 2.8 speed, it won't change a thing on the SS and other istants damage. That's why daggers are bad for combat, and why some abilities like ambush have different coefficients if you use a dagger.

    As a side note, NWS has been introduced in vanilla, thanks to the Barman Shanker blue lvl 56 dagger that was better than epic ones just because it was 2.0 speed - and by a large margin, i can assure you
    Last edited by Coldkil; 2011-11-07 at 05:48 AM.

  8. #588
    Quote Originally Posted by RogueDurr View Post
    Unless I am reading your statement wrong, the weighted blades was to fix the MH weapon speed. It being a dagger or a mace for combat doesn't mean anything, only the speed. With a faster speed, means SS,RV, MG, and KS all hit for less. The weighted blades was to help counter act the negatives of the fast speed.

    There are only 3 differences between a 1.8 dagger and a slow 2.6 weapon of the same quality: the speed, and as a consequence the min and max damage.
    Sinister strike is based on these min-max values, and not on the speed, but the speed influences these min-max values if you consider a fixed DPS value on the weapons.
    That is why the damage of these abilities was increased by 45%

    As far as my thoughts go, I think MG dps doesn't really change if you compare a slow to a fast weapon.
    since the MG proccing is percentage based, you will get 44% more hits (2.6/1.8 - 1), but for 44% less damage each, but the total DPS will be the same on that part.

    Or am I overlooking something here?
    People can be whoever they choose to be on the internet - It is strange that so many people choose to be stupid.

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  9. #589
    Quote Originally Posted by patcherke View Post
    Sinister strike is based on these min-max values, and not on the speed, but the speed influences these min-max values if you consider a fixed DPS value on the weapons.
    This is the only wrong thing. Ofc, a faster weapon means smaller min/max damage, but this isn't the biggest part.

    If you look at the formula i posted above, the biggest contribution is given by AP/14*NWS. Given the same AP, NWS is 2.4 for every 1h weapon and 1.7 for daggers. That's why daggers are so bad. It's a mechanic built inside the weapon type - that's why they got the buff that way or moves like Ambush have double coefficients depending on weapon type.

    Even if the dagger was 2.6 speed, it would hit for a lot less with a SS compared to another weapon type.

  10. #590
    RogueDurr is correct.

    The rest of you are overthinking this. There are TWO parts to the damage calculation that change going from a 1.8 dagger to a 2.6 sword: the number you multiply AP and a constant by (this is 1.7 for a dagger, 2.4 for a sword), and ALSO the weapon damage roll. The weapon damage roll is based on the listed weapon dps divided by the number of swings in an interval, which is related to the speed- 1.8 or 2.6.

    So if your weapon has dps of 100 and a speed of 1.0, it will strike every second for 100 damage. If it has a dps of 100 and a speed of 2.0, it will strike every two seconds for 200 damage. Both cases have a dps of 100. Weapons can, for flavor, have a broader top and bottom end, but what matters is the average roll.

    If you sinister strike with a dagger, your contribution based on AP is multiplied by 1.7. Do it with a sword, 2.4. This is 1.411 times as much damage contribution from AP when using a non-dagger instead of a dagger. Similarly, if you sinister strike with ANY weapon with a speed of 1.8 (which is only daggers these days), the values chosen for "weapon damage" are based on this- they would be twice as high if the weapon speed were 3.6. Since one handed weapons these days are all 2.6, 2.6/1.8 = 1.444

    So there are TWO factors: one is based on weapon type (1.7 for dagger, 2.4 for anything else a rogue can use), and the other is based on speed (1.8 for modern daggers, 2.6 for modern everything else). Both values are close to the 45% bonus listed. It's the SAME multiplier, is my point, so just sticking a 45% there makes total sense.


    The other option would be for the text to say: "Is a 2.6 speed weapon when you are combat, and no longer counts as a dagger but instead a sword, maybe?" 45% more damage is simple and accurately scales the only two numbers that matter upward by the amount in question.


    But yea, they should add killing spree to it. Killing Spree, Revealing Strike, Sinister Strike. Main Gauche was probably on there because some of the devs still thought it procced based on offhand hits, instead of mainhand hits.

  11. #591
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    RogueDurr is correct.

    The rest of you are overthinking this. There are TWO parts to the damage calculation that change going from a 1.8 dagger to a 2.6 sword: the number you multiply AP and a constant by (this is 1.7 for a dagger, 2.4 for a sword), and ALSO the weapon damage roll. The weapon damage roll is based on the listed weapon dps divided by the number of swings in an interval, which is related to the speed- 1.8 or 2.6.

    So if your weapon has dps of 100 and a speed of 1.0, it will strike every second for 100 damage. If it has a dps of 100 and a speed of 2.0, it will strike every two seconds for 200 damage. Both cases have a dps of 100. Weapons can, for flavor, have a broader top and bottom end, but what matters is the average roll.

    If you sinister strike with a dagger, your contribution based on AP is multiplied by 1.7. Do it with a sword, 2.4. This is 1.411 times as much damage contribution from AP when using a non-dagger instead of a dagger. Similarly, if you sinister strike with ANY weapon with a speed of 1.8 (which is only daggers these days), the values chosen for "weapon damage" are based on this- they would be twice as high if the weapon speed were 3.6. Since one handed weapons these days are all 2.6, 2.6/1.8 = 1.444

    So there are TWO factors: one is based on weapon type (1.7 for dagger, 2.4 for anything else a rogue can use), and the other is based on speed (1.8 for modern daggers, 2.6 for modern everything else). Both values are close to the 45% bonus listed. It's the SAME multiplier, is my point, so just sticking a 45% there makes total sense.


    The other option would be for the text to say: "Is a 2.6 speed weapon when you are combat, and no longer counts as a dagger but instead a sword, maybe?" 45% more damage is simple and accurately scales the only two numbers that matter upward by the amount in question.


    But yea, they should add killing spree to it. Killing Spree, Revealing Strike, Sinister Strike. Main Gauche was probably on there because some of the devs still thought it procced based on offhand hits, instead of mainhand hits.
    You are very correct. The fast main hand dagger gives combat only 1 benefit without the buffs, more MH attacks meaning more MG procs. The extra MG procs does not equal the 44.5% damage lose, not even close. With the daggers changing so much, I been trying to restrict how much I talk about it, cause it very well can be made out-date by another change.

  12. #592
    I was looking forward to some mastery stacking as combat, Would really help with using pieces for Assassin.
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  13. #593
    Quote Originally Posted by Zik3l View Post
    I was looking forward to some mastery stacking as combat, Would really help with using pieces for Assassin.
    Well with the way things where with the 45% MG buff on the dagger, I am pretty sure it would change mastery's EP value much. The reasons why Hit is higher then mastery should still be the same. Hit provides more MH hits promoting more MG procs, but it also gives me off-hand and poison hits. Where just plan old mastery only effect your MH.

  14. #594
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    Am I wrong in thinking that our energyreg should be even higher now then? since combat potency can proc from MG, and from what I've understood we're getting more MG's, but weaker, but still, more MG's, so more energyreg? yes/no?

  15. #595
    Quote Originally Posted by Cotech View Post
    Am I wrong in thinking that our energyreg should be even higher now then? since combat potency can proc from MG, and from what I've understood we're getting more MG's, but weaker, but still, more MG's, so more energyreg? yes/no?
    HHHMMM, you would be correct. Totally forgot about that factor. But yea, your statement sounds correct. How many more and how much of a dps gain that would be I not sure. I dont think its a huge increase.

  16. #596
    Quote Originally Posted by RogueDurr View Post
    HHHMMM, you would be correct. Totally forgot about that factor. But yea, your statement sounds correct. How many more and how much of a dps gain that would be I not sure. I dont think its a huge increase.
    I think that it would be at least a noticeable increase. Going from a 2.6 to a 1.8 attack speed is a someway big change. There are a lot more procs, to compensate the damage loss, always in the 45%-ish amount since it's the amount of damage loss more or less switching to a dagger.

    As for KS, i think they didn't include it having in mind the legendary step. The proc will grant something like 1 minute less CD on KS (if it works with restless blades ofc) so this way it compensated the loss in KS damage.

  17. #597
    Dreadlord Leitka's Avatar
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    The energy regen difference was most certainly noticeable on the PTR due to the combat potency procs. Lag is a factor in that, however.

  18. #598
    Main Gauche is currently a chance for a mainhand swing to proc a mainhand swing (it was based on old sword spec, which would be main or offhand hits able to proc a mainhand, and was briefly mainhand swings proccing offhand swings on live, back when it was terrible). Right now, if you were to run a dagger mainhand as combat, you would get about the same amount of damage out of main gauche as using a 2.6 weapon- because while you would be hitting less hard, you would be hitting more often in the same amount. In other words, main gauche is largely simply an amplifier on mainhand white damage, which is based on weapon dps. You *would* however, get more energy, because main gauche can proc extra energy as if it were still an offhand attack.

    So yes, you will get more energy. But the difference will likely not be all that noticeable- remember, combat potency procs 20% of the time on a main gauche, which in turn does not proc that often. However, it will still increase relative EP of mastery for combat by a small amount. I would guess not enough to move it relative to other stats, however, as again, this bonus is small- check out your main gauche procs on live, divide by 5 for average number of combat potency procs from that, and then multiply by .444. That's how many extra procs you would get, and is not a large amount of our overall combat potency regen.

  19. #599
    Dreadlord Leitka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Main Gauche is currently a chance for a mainhand swing to proc a mainhand swing (it was based on old sword spec, which would be main or offhand hits able to proc a mainhand, and was briefly mainhand swings proccing offhand swings on live, back when it was terrible). Right now, if you were to run a dagger mainhand as combat, you would get about the same amount of damage out of main gauche as using a 2.6 weapon- because while you would be hitting less hard, you would be hitting more often in the same amount. In other words, main gauche is largely simply an amplifier on mainhand white damage, which is based on weapon dps. You *would* however, get more energy, because main gauche can proc extra energy as if it were still an offhand attack.

    So yes, you will get more energy. But the difference will likely not be all that noticeable- remember, combat potency procs 20% of the time on a main gauche, which in turn does not proc that often. However, it will still increase relative EP of mastery for combat by a small amount. I would guess not enough to move it relative to other stats, however, as again, this bonus is small- check out your main gauche procs on live, divide by 5 for average number of combat potency procs from that, and then multiply by .444. That's how many extra procs you would get, and is not a large amount of our overall combat potency regen.
    Main gauche procs substantially more with a MH dagger than with a MH non-dagger. As in, base with no gear or +mastery (outside of the offhand), and only autoattacking, you're looking at this:



    (keep in mind, though, that the damage difference there is misleading: that's before main gauche was removed from weighted blades, which is where the substantial damage difference to MG is coming from)
    It's not a high enough boost to Combat Potency procs that energy becomes unmanageable (at least any more so than it already can be), but it's absolutely something that you notice if you pay any attention to your incoming CP procs at all. If it's "not all that noticeable", you're not really paying much attention to it, at least from my experience with testing them.
    Last edited by Leitka; 2011-11-09 at 06:37 AM.

  20. #600
    That Blizzard is a bunch of liars that cant be trusted further then i could throw Deathwing :P

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