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  1. #641
    Mechagnome Tekloth's Avatar
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    Can we please have this thread stickied or something, so the forum won't be in abundance of "LFR and the legendary" etc threads? Pretty please?

  2. #642
    The Legendaries will have a greater impact on PvP than you realize.

    I know a Rogue from this season who couldn't even make 1550 in 3's, but after he got Heroic Daggers from Firelands he swiftly made 2K rating.

    I watch him beat other Rogues wielding 378 daggers with ease, and when they call him out on his daggers and he equips his Arena 378 daggers he in turn gets face rolled.

    So yes, Legendaries will have an even great impact. Maybe not enough to turn a Casual player into a Gladiator over night, but enough to carry an average rogue to Tier 2 relatively easily.

    There is a reason the 70s brackets Melees are constantly trying to get a hold of War Glaives, and Legendary bows.
    Last edited by Jersovic; 2011-11-17 at 08:57 AM.

  3. #643
    Quote Originally Posted by Jersovic View Post
    There is a reason the 70s brackets Melees are constantly trying to get a hold of War Glaives, and Legendary bows.
    I've done arena at level 70, 80 and 85. The reason level 70 and 80 players want such weapons is because at those brackets it's all about who can do the biggest burst the quickest, while at 85 you actually need to CC and such. At 85 you can survive those big bursts, at 70 and 80 you just drop if someone opens up on you.

    I think your friend just got better. Sure his damage went up as well with those daggers, but the difference isn't that big.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Predator and Aether.

  4. #644
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    I've done arena at level 70, 80 and 85. The reason level 70 and 80 players want such weapons is because at those brackets it's all about who can do the biggest burst the quickest, while at 85 you actually need to CC and such. At 85 you can survive those big bursts, at 70 and 80 you just drop if someone opens up on you.

    I think your friend just got better. Sure his damage went up as well with those daggers, but the difference isn't that big.
    I don't think he got better so much as a Rogue using 378 daggers is never going to come close to a Rogue dual wielding 391 daggers (even with the -180 resilience loss). I think this may be magnified in 4.3 with arena weapons only being item level 397, and Legendaries likely being closer to item level 420+.

    The lack of raiders in the upper brackets will probably make this a complete non-issue at the end game of PVP, but I imagine that the lower ratings will be terrorized by these Legendary daggers with players eager to try them out in the Arenas. After all almost any comp can tunnel their way to 2200 while utilizing very little CC and relying solely on BURST DPS and a Smoke Bomb.

    Either way I'm not concerned about it at all as long as the Rogue class isn't nerfed to compensate for this.

  5. #645
    Hi,
    everyone is saying there will be no DPS loss with combat because of the 45% more damage for SS and RS.
    But what about the proc of IP on Mainhand? Only because of the 1,8 speed (down from 2,6) there will be a proc loss about 15% for IP, because of the PPM!?

    I also didn't find anything where this topic is mentioned.
    Do anyone have some information about it?

  6. #646
    Quote Originally Posted by Jersovic View Post
    I don't think he got better so much as a Rogue using 378 daggers is never going to come close to a Rogue dual wielding 391 daggers (even with the -180 resilience loss). I think this may be magnified in 4.3 with arena weapons only being item level 397, and Legendaries likely being closer to item level 420+.

    The lack of raiders in the upper brackets will probably make this a complete non-issue at the end game of PVP, but I imagine that the lower ratings will be terrorized by these Legendary daggers with players eager to try them out in the Arenas. After all almost any comp can tunnel their way to 2200 while utilizing very little CC and relying solely on BURST DPS and a Smoke Bomb.

    Either way I'm not concerned about it at all as long as the Rogue class isn't nerfed to compensate for this.
    Very true.

    I can't deny that our first legendary staff user went straight into arena after getting it, and I will most likely mess around in arena as well if I get the daggers. Either way only time will tell how much of an impact those daggers are going to have on arena.

    EDIT:
    To the post above mine, I thought Instant Poison was normalized. That means it will always have the same proc per minute no matter what weapon or attack speed your weapon has.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Predator and Aether.

  7. #647
    Mechagnome Tekloth's Avatar
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    It is indeed normalized, so it doesn't matter whether you have a 2.6 MH or a 1.8 MH, the PPM will still be the same.

  8. #648
    So this is not true?
    The chance of applying a PPM poison is normalized to a 1.4 weapon speed:
    PPM = Base Proc Rate * 60 / Weapon Speed = 0.20p/hit * 60s/min / 1.4s/hit = 8.57 p/min

    After normalization, slow weapons will have a higher PPH rate than fast ones. Working backwards:
    PPH (for a 2.8 weapon) = Normalized Proc Rate * Weapon Speed / 60 = 8.57p/min * 2.8s/hit / 60s/min = 40% proc/hit
    A 2.6 weapon would have 37,x% and a 1.8 would have 25.71%

    Or do I mess anything, or is it outdated?

  9. #649
    Mechagnome Tekloth's Avatar
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    That is indeed true, the mechanic is normalized around 1.4 speed. But, slightly correcting what I said before, the PPM is AROUND THE SAME with both. The percentual numbers are misleading in the way that you don't seem to consider that the 2.6 weapon swings slower, so it of course needs to have a higher PPH (proc per hit), to make up for the swing time compared to a 1.8 speed weapon, which hits faster, but procs less often, resulting in an almost equal PPM. (2.6 weapons hit approx. 23 times per minute with a 37.x% proc rate compared to approx. 33.33 hits per minute for a 1.8 speed weapon with a 25.71% proc chance)

    Besides, the numbers you wrote there below the quote are PPH numbers, not PPM numbers.
    Last edited by Tekloth; 2011-11-17 at 11:18 AM.

  10. #650
    Arg, now I see... messed it up.
    Ok I'm glad theres everything allright with it, thanks!

  11. #651
    Herald of the Titans T Man's Avatar
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    Am I right in understanding that the rogues legendary proc is the worst of all legendary procs to date when looking ONLY at the time needed to make it proc.

    T12 staff took rng to proc but im sure it was under 60 seconds
    t10 axe proc was again under 60 seconds, you only needed 8? shards
    t8 was pretty much on the same proc rate as t7

    t13 on the other hands requires 30 stacks before the proc can start procing. And the time it take to get them 30 stacks I was lead to believe is not 30 auto attacks, a lot more then that.

    My point is people crying about rogues in arena, If the fight lasts long enough for them to get the to get the stacks....

    As the above poster said. the time frame looks about fair. 7 weeks for 25 and 14 for 10. This way it does balance out around the right number based on the amount of loot that drops.

    If it was 7 weeks for 10 and 7 weeks for 25. most guilds would just run 10mans until they got their dagger as you can get 2 rogues in 2 10mans over 1 rogue in a 25man.

  12. #652
    Maybe fair for Raid sizes but most 10mans wont have a dagger for Progress i dont think thats fair. Do People even realize what 14weeks(or whatever it maybe is with heroics) are ? Almost 4 Months ... by that Time we probably playing MoP beta already. They realy need to work on this it just sucks

  13. #653
    Quote Originally Posted by ripslyme View Post
    Maybe fair for Raid sizes but most 10mans wont have a dagger for Progress i dont think thats fair. Do People even realize what 14weeks(or whatever it maybe is with heroics) are ? Almost 4 Months ... by that Time we probably playing MoP beta already. They realy need to work on this it just sucks
    People like you have very small understanding skill. We have already a bleeding death of 25man guilds due to the merging of lockout/achiviements/loot. if legendaries would be done also in the same time, there would be literally no reason at all to do 25 man. It would be on the contrary more rewarding to do 10man, since you can run 2/3 groups together.

    If you want more legendaries, go 25man. If you're not able to get a full organized group, you're lacking the skill to do so.

  14. #654
    Another question about the PPM and PPH depending IP:
    What about SS, RS and Main Gache? They all give a chance to have IP proc.
    So the PPH is with a slow weapon about 37% with SS, RS, Main Gache.
    With the mainhand dagger it will be 25% for those spells.
    And you can't count the PPM for SS because it has always the same energycost, regardless of weaponspeed.

    How this would work with the daggers? Isn't there a loss?
    Last edited by hawke1221; 2011-11-17 at 12:20 PM.

  15. #655
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    People like you have very small understanding skill. We have already a bleeding death of 25man guilds due to the merging of lockout/achiviements/loot. if legendaries would be done also in the same time, there would be literally no reason at all to do 25 man. It would be on the contrary more rewarding to do 10man, since you can run 2/3 groups together.

    If you want more legendaries, go 25man. If you're not able to get a full organized group, you're lacking the skill to do so.
    funny how you know nothing about me but posting all this crap. should i giev it a try too,but i guess i dont wanna get banned, since everything today is considered trolling :/.

    Last Raid Blizzard wants to Push Addon faster 10man needs 4months, Yeah HF with another "Legendary-Bow" 10man raiders.

  16. #656
    In a 25 raid there is more than 1 rogue looking for the daggers how many rogues do you have on a 10man?

  17. #657
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripslyme View Post
    Maybe fair for Raid sizes but most 10mans wont have a dagger for Progress i dont think thats fair. Do People even realize what 14weeks(or whatever it maybe is with heroics) are ? Almost 4 Months ... by that Time we probably playing MoP beta already. They realy need to work on this it just sucks
    If you got 1 Rogue in your 10 man group and he got to wait 14 weeks, then its fair enough, my guild in the other hand got 3 Rogues and it will take longer than 14 weeks before everyone of us got legendaries. The ratio is fair enough as Coldkill said, there wouldnt be any reason at all to play 25 man if the ratio was the same (apart from the more challenging part of 25 man)
    Ascendance # 8 25 man
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  18. #658
    Quote Originally Posted by hawke1221 View Post
    Another question about the PPM and PPH depending IP:
    What about SS, RS and Main Gache? They all give a chance to have IP proc.
    So the PPH is with a slow weapon about 37% with SS, RS, Main Gache.
    With the mainhand dagger it will be 25% for those spells.
    And you can't count the PPM for SS because it has always the same energycost, regardless of weaponspeed.

    How this would work with the daggers? Isn't there a loss?
    Someone knows?

  19. #659
    Uh.. I know my English isnt the best but still ur missing what i said.. I said for Raid sizes its fine(or maybe :>) but its still unfair since 10man wont have atleast 1 for Progression, And thats why i think Blizzard has to change something in the Future.You got a Problem with that ? I dont care its just my Opinion

  20. #660
    Quote Originally Posted by ripslyme View Post
    Uh.. I know my English isnt the best but still ur missing what i said.. I said for Raid sizes its fine(or maybe :>) but its still unfair since 10man wont have atleast 1 for Progression, And thats why i think Blizzard has to change something in the Future.You got a Problem with that ? I dont care its just my Opinion

    Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one and ALL stink. And on top of that: nobody forces you to raid 10man. Just get a 25man raid and reap the rewards and legendaries like on crack.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    not quite Batman

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