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  1. #661
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    People like you have very small understanding skill. We have already a bleeding death of 25man guilds due to the merging of lockout/achiviements/loot. if legendaries would be done also in the same time, there would be literally no reason at all to do 25 man. It would be on the contrary more rewarding to do 10man, since you can run 2/3 groups together.

    If you want more legendaries, go 25man. If you're not able to get a full organized group, you're lacking the skill to do so.
    The problem isn't more legendaries in 25 man, its that 10 man cannot get them during progression. To make it fair 25 mans should get 2-3 legendaries at week 14, and none before that.

  2. #662
    Many apologies if this has been asked before. I tried a cursory search and came up with nothing but didn't want to start a new thread.

    Quick background: I run in a 10m casual guild as an ele sham. For 4.3 the guild was looking for someone to go rogue to benefit from at least the Stage 1 daggers if not better. I got elected to switch. My rogue should be 378'd w/ T12 4pc by the time 4.3 hits, minus the weapons unless I get some luck.

    My question: We don't raid Tuesdays. Assuming servers are up and all that when 4.3 is released; Is it conceivable that I can get into another guilds instance that has the first 3 down, pick-pocket Hagra, and finish the Stage 1 quest chain by Wednesday and still raid with guild?

    I've always been a little wonky on lockout tricks but so long as I don't kill anything (and nobody will be doing heroics yet) I shouldn't get saved just for entering right?

    After that it's 12 hours, 10k gold, and a few tricky quests yes?

    TL;DR: Can you get Stage 1 daggers without getting saved?

    EDIT: My apologies. I could use Search Thread after logging in. It looks like you'd need to at least have the guild who's lockout you're borrowing clear trash right?
    Last edited by nynaeve; 2011-11-17 at 08:11 PM. Reason: Found the "Search Thread" button

  3. #663
    Dreadlord Leitka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    People like you have very small understanding skill. We have already a bleeding death of 25man guilds due to the merging of lockout/achiviements/loot. if legendaries would be done also in the same time, there would be literally no reason at all to do 25 man. It would be on the contrary more rewarding to do 10man, since you can run 2/3 groups together.

    If you want more legendaries, go 25man. If you're not able to get a full organized group, you're lacking the skill to do so.
    The most sensible approach would be to allow 25 mans to build more than one at a time (say, two) and *slightly faster* (say, two weeks earlier), rather than much faster and one at a time equally. You'd maintain a much nearer completion ratio that way between the two formats.
    That could easily be done already with the way the gem cluster drops work on 25 (two containers rather than one), but since they're not *forcing* that of course most guilds will build a single legendary at a time.

  4. #664
    Quote Originally Posted by Leitka View Post
    The most sensible approach would be to allow 25 mans to build more than one at a time (say, two) and *slightly faster* (say, two weeks earlier), rather than much faster and one at a time equally. You'd maintain a much nearer completion ratio that way between the two formats.
    That could easily be done already with the way the gem cluster drops work on 25 (two containers rather than one), but since they're not *forcing* that of course most guilds will build a single legendary at a time.
    Sounds like the best option to me. I raid 10man and I don't want to feel like the daggers are going to be useful for maybe heroic DW only just because I choose to raid 10m. I really hope i'll get to USE them for at least 2months or something before MoP is here :P
    Last edited by Teriko; 2011-11-17 at 10:37 PM.

  5. #665
    I was curious. I doubt they will let people start but my cousin was asking me if they will let you at least start the quest in the raid finder. He is young and a serious raid isn't for him haha so I told him I'd ask around see what I dug up. anywho im rambling can you start this in raid finder or just premades? Either way he won't get it I think but meh.

  6. #666
    Can't start this in raid finder, Items won't drop in raid finder. Have to do normal raids as a minimum.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
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  7. #667
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    The problem isn't more legendaries in 25 man, its that 10 man cannot get them during progression. To make it fair 25 mans should get 2-3 legendaries at week 14, and none before that.
    NO, the problem is that everyone think they deserve thier legendary. They are NOT nedeed to complete the raid content, they are a prize for dedication into raiding - if you look at them like "need to farm my imba daggurz" you are plain wrong.

    I'm not saying that 10man are crap and don't need attention, but still the effort to organize a 25man is way more than to do a 10man. People tend to look at the faster/easier way, and this time is 10man raid size. Hence people complain about their "unluck" and that they need to have the legendaries the same way 25man have.

    Again, if this was the case, no serious guild would do 25man, since it's extremely easier to put up 2/3 10 man rosters. Nowadays going 25man is mostly a choice, since you don't have any real advantage - you don't gear up faster, you have 2.5 time the people to spread loots.

  8. #668
    You do gear up faster in 25 mans. In 10 mans, half the gear that drops cannot be used by anyone in the raid and gets DE'd. You can go weeks/months without items for your spec/class dropping. In 25s, just about everything is put to use until nearly your whole raid is geared up. Not to mention tier tokens are less subject to RNG, and that you actually get three times the loot rather than 2.5 times the loot.

    Those are enough advantages for 25 man guilds, they don't need their legendaries any faster than 10 mans.

    Edit: You say they're a prize for being dedicated to raiding. Why do 10 man raiders have to be dedicated for three times as long as 25 man raiders, and not get their prize when it is actually useful to them? Why shouldn't it be that everyone is dedicated the same length, but three people get prizes for being dedicated for 25 mans?

    Edit2: And the effort to organize a raid is on the raid leader and officers, not the actual raiders. The individual responsibility of the raiders is still the same.
    Last edited by Maelstrom51; 2011-11-18 at 10:32 AM.

  9. #669
    Mechagnome Tekloth's Avatar
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    I think that Blizzards logic behind this decision is simply the fact that by making the 10man raid collect items twice as long as in 25man, both raid sizes will presumably have all of their rogues with the daggers at the same time, which is what Blizzard seems to aim for. The only way I see as to how the daggers would be made equally available for both raid sizes would be that the amount of shards/clusters obtained is limited to a fixed amount in every reset (the maximum of what a 10-man raider could obtain in a single reset), thus forcing 2 rogues on the quest at the same time on 25man.

    The only problem with that is that it would limit the shard gain on the 2nd reset to only half of what is available unless the amount of Decoder Rings pick pocketed per reset from Hagara is more than 1.

  10. #670
    Decoder rings respawn every 15 minutes, or you can reset the instance to do it instantly.

  11. #671
    Mechagnome Tekloth's Avatar
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    Remember that it's still PTR, it may not make it into live, unless Blizzard is conciously letting every rogue in the game get their hands on the phase 1 daggers simply by using an ID cleared up to Hagara and surviving the trash event to pick pocket her...

  12. #672
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    You do gear up faster in 25 mans. In 10 mans, half the gear that drops cannot be used by anyone in the raid and gets DE'd. You can go weeks/months without items for your spec/class dropping. In 25s, just about everything is put to use until nearly your whole raid is geared up. Not to mention tier tokens are less subject to RNG, and that you actually get three times the loot rather than 2.5 times the loot.

    Those are enough advantages for 25 man guilds, they don't need their legendaries any faster than 10 mans.

    Edit: You say they're a prize for being dedicated to raiding. Why do 10 man raiders have to be dedicated for three times as long as 25 man raiders, and not get their prize when it is actually useful to them? Why shouldn't it be that everyone is dedicated the same length, but three people get prizes for being dedicated for 25 mans?

    Edit2: And the effort to organize a raid is on the raid leader and officers, not the actual raiders. The individual responsibility of the raiders is still the same.
    Because is faster and easier to raid as a 10man group. You already have your reward. And if you really want to get the legendary faster, join a 25man guild or organize a 25man raid. And i can assure you that RNG is a bitch also in 25, it's less probable but we have disenchanted lots of gear during FL.

    Again, 25man need to be more rewarding in terms of items. Otherwise there would be no reason to make them, and they will die.

    It's not a problem of "i deserve the same things as you", because in the end you don't. It's not a written law, there is nothing that supports this. 25man are more rewarding than 10man regarding loot. This is a fact, you can complain at Blizz, and until they don't change it, you are bound to it.

    I'm not against critics, i'm againt useless complaints. We have bashed the argument in every form, and still the debate brings us nowhere.

  13. #673
    Field Marshal KangarooBasher's Avatar
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    Rogues do not need a legendary how op are they in pvp they rank next to mages or above most 2 op classes in pvp

  14. #674
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    It's not a problem of "i deserve the same things as you", because in the end you don't. It's not a written law, there is nothing that supports this.
    10 mans share achievements and loot, and acquire approximately the same amount of gear per person (not taking into account the amount that gets DE'd, but including legendary items) at approximately the same rate as 25 mans. We currently get the same things as you, so it seems that Blizzard disagrees with you.
    There's the support for my argument. Where's yours?

    The only thing I am suggesting is that the legendary is acquired at the same time for 10s and 25s, just 25s get three of them. This equates to 25s still getting more legendaries per person in the raid, but with the use people get out of the legendary being equal between 10 and 25s.

    Also, as for the 10 vs 25 man debate, yes, Firelands was mostly harder in 25 man. But now think back to tier 11 where the majority of the bosses were initially much harder in 10 man. With stuff like that, how can you so boldly claim that 25 man is and always will be superior/harder than 10 man, and that 25 man deserves more rewards for being harder?

  15. #675
    Mechagnome Tekloth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KangarooBasher View Post
    Rogues do not need a legendary how op are they in pvp they rank next to mages or above most 2 op classes in pvp
    I'm quite sure that 2 huge wings suddenly appearing from our back is a certain "OVER HERE, I HAVE A LEGENDARY! CC ME BEFORE I CAN WREAK HAVOC!" message to anyone paying any attention to what's going on in arena matches. Thus rendering the proc useless against anyone with a clue. It'll cause an inflation of rogues on the sub-2000's brackets for sure though.

  16. #676
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    10 mans share achievements and loot, and acquire approximately the same amount of gear per person (not taking into account the amount that gets DE'd, but including legendary items) at approximately the same rate as 25 mans. We currently get the same things as you, so it seems that Blizzard disagrees with you.
    There's the support for my argument. Where's yours?

    The only thing I am suggesting is that the legendary is acquired at the same time for 10s and 25s, just 25s get three of them. This equates to 25s still getting more legendaries per person in the raid, but with the use people get out of the legendary being equal between 10 and 25s.

    Also, as for the 10 vs 25 man debate, yes, Firelands was mostly harder in 25 man. But now think back to tier 11 where the majority of the bosses were initially much harder in 10 man. With stuff like that, how can you so boldly claim that 25 man is and always will be superior/harder than 10 man, and that 25 man deserves more rewards for being harder?
    I don't take this as an argument. And i'm not talking about bosses difficulty.

    My wording has been harsh, i need to do some excuses, but later. I'm just tired of this argument being brought back every 15 posts and every time it doesn't bring anything to the discussion.

    The problem doesn't have an easy solution, even if you paint it like it is. It's not just a matter of time invested. It's the repercussion we would have on the gameplay. We have, as soon as we know the quest datas, people who is calculating how much time it takes to do them. This means directly that people is looking for the faster/easier way to complete the daggers (or staff or whatever).

    Actually, the only thing keeping alive 25man guilds are these advantages; people like way more the "friedly-like" way of play of 10mans. 10mans shouldn't be penalized, but making them too similar or equal to 25man would produce only bad side effects in my humble opinion.

    And, last thing, i'm sorry for my behaviour. It's been an hard week at work, not in my best shape

  17. #677
    Dreadlord
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    Why do people force the idea of it being 10man that's penalized? Can't it just be turned around so that 25man is having some perks for the extra trouble it is of keeping an active and working 25 man roster?

    Also, before cataclysm people that raided 10man only didn't get legendaries at all, and yet I think there's more whine now than it was back then about it (from the 10man side).

  18. #678
    We don't even know how long the content will last or when the expansion hits anyway. I'm happy as long as I'll be able to use the daggers for some progression no matter how long it takes to get them. But if 25mans do, and 10mans dont :c I'd get bitter. That said, I'm not worried about it at all.
    Last edited by Teriko; 2011-11-18 at 06:23 PM.

  19. #679
    Quote Originally Posted by Cotech View Post
    Why do people force the idea of it being 10man that's penalized? Can't it just be turned around so that 25man is having some perks for the extra trouble it is of keeping an active and working 25 man roster?

    Also, before cataclysm people that raided 10man only didn't get legendaries at all, and yet I think there's more whine now than it was back then about it (from the 10man side).
    I get your point and you are right, but before Cataclysm 10 man and 25 man wasn't the same. You could do both a 10 and 25 man raid per lockout and 25 man had different/better drops as well.

    Now the lockouts and droptables are exactly the same, yet 10 man has a harder time earning those legendaries.

    Don't take this the wrong way though, I'm not picking a side and I honestly don't care if there is or isn't a difference. I'm just saying comparing Cataclysm to Wrath isn't fair.
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  20. #680
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    I get your point and you are right, but before Cataclysm 10 man and 25 man wasn't the same. You could do both a 10 and 25 man raid per lockout and 25 man had different/better drops as well.

    Now the lockouts and droptables are exactly the same, yet 10 man has a harder time earning those legendaries.

    Don't take this the wrong way though, I'm not picking a side and I honestly don't care if there is or isn't a difference. I'm just saying comparing Cataclysm to Wrath isn't fair.
    Indeed it isn't fair to compare cataclysm and wrath, it was mostly meant as a consideration as to why people playing 10 man only aren't happy that it's this much more equal now than it was before, but instead of being happy that the 2 raidsizes are pretty much on par when it comes to loot and whatnot, people complain more now than back then when it really was "unfair".

    But in all honesty, having raided both 25 and 10 in wotlk, and 25 and 10 in cataclysm, I actually don't think that the fights overall are that much closer in terms of difficulty (between the raidsizes), the only difference is that 25 man players can't outgear the 10man versions as easily, but I can't help but feel that the fights are easier (in 10man) anyway.

    Overall I think it's easier to go from 25 to 10 than the other way around, so maybe that's why I'm a bit biased. But the point still stands, people in 10man aren't satisfied with having the two raidsizes as equal as it actually is, even though it's already improved alot.
    Raiding 10 and 25 isn't equal, so it shouldn't be treated as such. It's harder to manage a 25man raiding guild, so there should be some advantage to actually keep people staying in that raidsize.
    Last edited by Cotech; 2011-11-18 at 07:41 PM.

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