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  1. #821
    Quote Originally Posted by Rizo View Post
    I really dont see why 10 man guilds should be slower to get the gems than 25mans , my guild doesnt run 25man raids and i'm not guna be joinning a differnt guild just to get the gems faster. I mean if the loot that drops is the same in 10's as 25's then why does blizz make legendary quest iteams drop less ? i know the staff stuff was the same. just seems blizz wants to make ppl raid 25mans. I think the reason why so many guilds have started to mostly raid 10man is theres a lot less ppl to have to organise and get to turn up on time for a start .

    But yes i see your point 25man raids will drop the stuff faster and its just to bad if your in a 10 man raid.
    Um, why do they get less of normal items? Because theres less of them to gear out. A 25m has 2.5x more people to gear out quite likely including more than 1 rogue. Obviously they should get more legendary pieces.

    Now heroic on both sizes needs to drop more... heroic raiding guilds should not be getting their legendary slower than normal mode raiding guilds because of rng.

    And blizz is clearly promoting 10m, I don't know how you can't see that. 10m is generally easier (except the first tier) because they have made it easier so that you don't get screwed if you can't alter your raid comp (like being able to 3 heal hm bal, when most guilds could only take 4 (maybe 5) on 25m). You also get the same ilvl gear and gear at the same rate per person (minus rng).

  2. #822
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Um, why do they get less of normal items? Because theres less of them to gear out. A 25m has 2.5x more people to gear out quite likely including more than 1 rogue. Obviously they should get more legendary pieces.

    Now heroic on both sizes needs to drop more... heroic raiding guilds should not be getting their legendary slower than normal mode raiding guilds because of rng.

    And blizz is clearly promoting 10m, I don't know how you can't see that. 10m is generally easier (except the first tier) because they have made it easier so that you don't get screwed if you can't alter your raid comp (like being able to 3 heal hm bal, when most guilds could only take 4 (maybe 5) on 25m). You also get the same ilvl gear and gear at the same rate per person (minus rng).
    I disagree with you on the promotion of 10-men.
    25-mens get in comparison more loot than 10 men, tier wise, and until recently, got more valor points as well. In 25-men, a lot less gear is sharded in the starting period of a tier, simply because there are more people that can use an item, and chances are higher all classes are present too. It speeds up the gearing process at the start, until it evens out after a while.

    And about the legendaries and that 25-men should get more:

    I agree on the part that 25-men has to gear up more rogues in T13 to have a legendary (or caster in T12) but that is not the problem about these legendaries.
    In 25-men, a legendary is created a lot faster, and that means the raid will benefit more from said legendary than a 10-men raid. Even getting the phase 2 daggers sooner benefits their progress more than 10 men.
    The most fair solution would be to have an equal time of making a legendary in both settings, but allowing a 25-men raid to create more at the same time.

    There is an easy solution for that: limit the number of gem clusters per person.
    Drop 1 cluster in 10-men and 2 in 25 (or even make it 3, depending on the ratio of rogues between the 2 settings), just like it was before, but each rogue can only get 1 cluster per boss. This would make the point at which both settings benefit from the legendary, the same.
    Simple solution, but that was apparently too much of coding for Blizzard.
    Right now I am looking against somewhere between 15-20 weeks before I can get the legendary, and I hope I get at least a few weeks playing with it, before MoP comes out, and the item gets worthless DPS-wise.

    And inb4 “ then go play 25-men if you want it faster”: this only strengthens my point of 25-men being more promoted…
    Last edited by patcherke; 2011-12-15 at 03:43 PM.
    People can be whoever they choose to be on the internet - It is strange that so many people choose to be stupid.

    every time I see someone mentioning the word "rouge" I get the urge to say "yes, we are overpowdered"...

  3. #823
    Quote Originally Posted by patcherke View Post
    I disagree with you on the promotion of 10-men.
    25-mens get in comparison more loot than 10 men, tier wise, and until recently, got more valor points as well. In 25-men, a lot less gear is sharded in the starting period of a tier, simply because there are more people that can use an item, and chances are higher all classes are present too. It speeds up the gearing process at the start, until it evens out after a while.

    And about the legendaries and that 25-men should get more:

    I agree on the part that 25-men has to gear up more rogues in T13 to have a legendary (or caster in T12) but that is not the problem about these legendaries.
    In 25-men, a legendary is created a lot faster, and that means the raid will benefit more from said legendary than a 10-men raid. Even getting the phase 2 daggers sooner benefits their progress more than 10 men.
    The most fair solution would be to have an equal time of making a legendary in both settings, but allowing a 25-men raid to create more at the same time.

    There is an easy solution for that: limit the number of gem clusters per person.
    Drop 1 cluster in 10-men and 2 in 25 (or even make it 3, depending on the ratio of rogues between the 2 settings), just like it was before, but each rogue can only get 1 cluster per boss. This would make the point at which both settings benefit from the legendary, the same.
    Simple solution, but that was apparently too much of coding for Blizzard.
    Right now I am looking against somewhere between 15-20 weeks before I can get the legendary, and I hope I get at least a few weeks playing with it, before MoP comes out, and the item gets worthless DPS-wise.

    And inb4 “ then go play 25-men if you want it faster”: this only strengthens my point of 25-men being more promoted…
    I don't get why all the 10 man rogues are complaining, the content is easier, period. All the top end guilds say as such. As far as the drop rates go? tough beans amigos. These loot arguments are absurd. As a rogue in a 10 man how many people do you have on your respective token? Four maybe? And that's max... As a rogue in a 25 man... there's 13 people on the Vanq token personally in my guild... 13 people, at TWO tokens per boss. Not three... TWO... It's clear that because you raid 10 mans you aren't running 25s at all, so you actually have no fucking clue what you're talking about. Drops were changed up this patch so all of your "I used to do blah blah blah" arguments are also invalid. The real reason 25s get it faster, and deservedly so, is because it's highly likely that progression based 25 man guilds have 2 to 3 rogues on the roster, that should deserve a shot at legendary daggers, more for the guild than themselves. What's the point of giving it to 2 rogues at the same time? None, then no one benefits from it for a long time... You 10 man rogues,probably the only rogue, unless your guild is retarded, have no one in line behind you... So what's the rush? No one else needs it, content is easier, and gear really isn't an issue. Nuff said. You'll get your legendary and you'll think it's awesome. So sit back, relax, and shut the hell up.

    EDIT: Also just look at wowprogress stats, 25 man guilds are dying off with each passing patch, why is that? Because you reap the exact same rewards on 10 man, and it's a hell of a lot easier.
    Last edited by ManthonyChopkins; 2011-12-15 at 04:43 PM.

  4. #824
    And in other 25m raids, there are 6 vanquisher. Where's your argument? You sound like a bitter old men, longing for ye olde days of 40 man raids, because "that was tru hardcore rading". You might need to learn to relax, take it easy, and acknowledge that 25 and 10 man are different. Not better/worse, but different.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    not quite Batman

  5. #825
    Merry Xmas to me, I'm on pace for the stage 2 daggers next week :-D

  6. #826
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahdehl View Post
    Merry Xmas to me, I'm on pace for the stage 2 daggers next week :-D
    me tooooo


    Does anyone know that if u get 333 gems midraid and keep on killing bosses those clusters you looted afterwards will disappear after you turn the shadowy gem part, before you pick the cluster part? Or should we quit the raid so the rogue can pick up the next part?

  7. #827
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avell View Post
    me tooooo


    Does anyone know that if u get 333 gems midraid and keep on killing bosses those clusters you looted afterwards will disappear after you turn the shadowy gem part, before you pick the cluster part? Or should we quit the raid so the rogue can pick up the next part?
    It would depend if your raid is ok with you going into Karazhan to do the 2nd sneaky part which could take awhile if you havent done it before, I did the 2nd sneaky shit on PTR and it was alot more horrible than the Gilneas one. But well thats all up to you and your guild I guess.

  8. #828
    Quote Originally Posted by Flandersson View Post
    It would depend if your raid is ok with you going into Karazhan to do the 2nd sneaky part which could take awhile if you havent done it before, I did the 2nd sneaky shit on PTR and it was alot more horrible than the Gilneas one. But well thats all up to you and your guild I guess.

    my question was more like - Do you lose all your clusters(not gems ofc) while turning the first quest in

  9. #829
    5/8 Heroic 10man, Im set to get my Stage 2s in about 4/5 weeks *waves little sarcastic flag*
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Go put some pants on.
    Myst - Jubei'thos - Prestige
    6/6 Heroic MV
    6/6 Heroic HOF
    3/4 Heroic TOES

  10. #830
    Quote Originally Posted by Zik3l View Post
    5/8 Heroic 10man, Im set to get my Stage 2s in about 4/5 weeks *waves little sarcastic flag*
    Yeah, the drop rate for HC 10 is pathetic. Awesome to see 25mN raiders able to stroll into the 2nd stage of daggers after, what, 3 or 4 weeks? Blizz screwed the pooch on this one.

  11. #831
    Quote Originally Posted by Kooshkrusher View Post
    I'm all for giving rogues another legendary since the glaives, but rogue only? That's retarded. Is there even another single class legendary out there? Enough whining seemed to work on the classes part. At least give the other 2 handed classes something to dabble in....It's just plain retarded imo.
    I get the feeling they wanted to make legendary daggers, and rogues just so happen to be the only class that uses them, when you think about it daggers are probably the only kind of weapon they haven't really done yet, there's been 2-3 one handers (depending on whether you count each glaive seperately), a staff, a healing 1 hander, 2 2handers, and a bow/ranged weapon, that (if i'm not forgetting anything) leaves daggers and a shield (because i'm sure we'll get one eventually)

  12. #832
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    And in other 25m raids, there are 6 vanquisher. Where's your argument? You sound like a bitter old men, longing for ye olde days of 40 man raids, because "that was tru hardcore rading". You might need to learn to relax, take it easy, and acknowledge that 25 and 10 man are different. Not better/worse, but different.
    LOL bro, only 6? You know as well as I do that's utter BS, but you've made your point I suppose, even though it's full of fallacy. Regardless 25 man guilds have more rogues to gear, more people to gear, and AS SUCH get more gear. 10 mans are on another level, and get drops accordingly. And yes, for the record, even tho I still do enjoy this game and still play it. I long for simpler times before 10 million subs and all that brought with it.

  13. #833
    Mechagnome Tekloth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avell View Post
    my question was more like - Do you lose all your clusters(not gems ofc) while turning the first quest in
    The leftover clusters will remain in your bags since they're not marked as a "quest item".

  14. #834
    Quote Originally Posted by patcherke View Post
    I disagree with you on the promotion of 10-men.
    25-mens get in comparison more loot than 10 men, tier wise, and until recently, got more valor points as well. In 25-men, a lot less gear is sharded in the starting period of a tier, simply because there are more people that can use an item, and chances are higher all classes are present too. It speeds up the gearing process at the start, until it evens out after a while.

    And about the legendaries and that 25-men should get more:

    I agree on the part that 25-men has to gear up more rogues in T13 to have a legendary (or caster in T12) but that is not the problem about these legendaries.
    In 25-men, a legendary is created a lot faster, and that means the raid will benefit more from said legendary than a 10-men raid. Even getting the phase 2 daggers sooner benefits their progress more than 10 men.
    The most fair solution would be to have an equal time of making a legendary in both settings, but allowing a 25-men raid to create more at the same time.

    There is an easy solution for that: limit the number of gem clusters per person.
    Drop 1 cluster in 10-men and 2 in 25 (or even make it 3, depending on the ratio of rogues between the 2 settings), just like it was before, but each rogue can only get 1 cluster per boss. This would make the point at which both settings benefit from the legendary, the same.
    Simple solution, but that was apparently too much of coding for Blizzard.
    Right now I am looking against somewhere between 15-20 weeks before I can get the legendary, and I hope I get at least a few weeks playing with it, before MoP comes out, and the item gets worthless DPS-wise.

    And inb4 “ then go play 25-men if you want it faster”: this only strengthens my point of 25-men being more promoted…
    Yes 10m is more likely to get rng'd on gear, because yeah you won't have everything. You still theoretically have the same amount of time on average to gear up the raid on 10m, its just that you are likely to see more pieces with no gain. Also 25m is getting screwed on tier this time (which granted is only 1/3 tiers) so... There is really not any gear bonus to 25m, you get the same ilvl, same expected time to gear your raid including legendaries. Also as some one mentioned 25m guilds are dropping like flies, I don't see how you can say its being promoted when a large amount of guilds have downsized to 10m.

    Also does the 25m getting that 1 dagger really help as much as you claim? You have 5-6 dps in a 10m raid on most fights as compared to 16-18 dps on 25m so that 1 rogue doing a bit more comparatively means far less. I remember when our mage got the first staff and his dps shot up like 6k or whatever, it honestly didn't make bal's enrage any easier or anything because the total raid dps in a 25m is triple 10m. A 10m mage adding another 6k is proportionally 3x better than what the 25m raid got. Also the fact that dps checks are far, far more lenient on 10m means having that dagger to push the dps a slight bit higher is far less important on 10m. So I completely disagree that the 25m raid gets any extra real benefit over then 10m.

    Also your get it faster in 25 argument is missing the crucial point... its about gearing your raid group, not about gearing individual players. Go join a 25m guild, itll take you just as long to get your daggers because I can pretty much guarantee you that a 25m guild already has 1 rogue collecting so you'd be #2 which since you get exactly double the drops means you would get your daggers at the same time as you would in 10m.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morbash View Post
    Yeah, the drop rate for HC 10 is pathetic. Awesome to see 25mN raiders able to stroll into the 2nd stage of daggers after, what, 3 or 4 weeks? Blizz screwed the pooch on this one.
    I assure you it pisses off the 25m hm raiders just as much that normal has the same drop rate.
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2011-12-16 at 09:30 AM.

  15. #835
    Quote Originally Posted by ManthonyChopkins View Post
    I don't get why all the 10 man rogues are complaining, the content is easier, period. All the top end guilds say as such. As far as the drop rates go? tough beans amigos. These loot arguments are absurd. As a rogue in a 10 man how many people do you have on your respective token? Four maybe? And that's max... As a rogue in a 25 man... there's 13 people on the Vanq token personally in my guild... 13 people, at TWO tokens per boss. Not three... TWO... It's clear that because you raid 10 mans you aren't running 25s at all, so you actually have no fucking clue what you're talking about. Drops were changed up this patch so all of your "I used to do blah blah blah" arguments are also invalid. The real reason 25s get it faster, and deservedly so, is because it's highly likely that progression based 25 man guilds have 2 to 3 rogues on the roster, that should deserve a shot at legendary daggers, more for the guild than themselves. What's the point of giving it to 2 rogues at the same time? None, then no one benefits from it for a long time... You 10 man rogues,probably the only rogue, unless your guild is retarded, have no one in line behind you... So what's the rush? No one else needs it, content is easier, and gear really isn't an issue. Nuff said. You'll get your legendary and you'll think it's awesome. So sit back, relax, and shut the hell up.

    EDIT: Also just look at wowprogress stats, 25 man guilds are dying off with each passing patch, why is that? Because you reap the exact same rewards on 10 man, and it's a hell of a lot easier.
    How absurd is it if in a 10-men guild, our mage got his legendary staff 1 week (yes,1) before 4.3 hit? And how absurd is it if a guild at 1/7 HC gets their staff many many weeks before our guild that was doing 6/7 hc at that time?

    How big is the chance that those 2 tokens (sorry my bad, I didn’t do enough lookup, but no reason to call me clueless) are sharded in 25-men? A lot slimmer than the one token being sharded in a 10-men raid, I can tell you that. Secondly they get more of the other non tier loot then (I cannot believe that is 2 items too)

    Quote Originally Posted by ManthonyChopkins View Post
    As a rogue in a 10 man how many people do you have on your respective token? Four maybe? And that's max... As a rogue in a 25 man... there's 13 people on the Vanq token personally in my guild
    In my guild it is 4, which is correct seen from an average point of view. If it is 13 in your guild, that only means your guild is above average for people that need that token, which is bad luck. But even then, the chance that of those 2 tokens that drop, there is one you can use (regardless if you win it or not) is more than 50% higher than on 10 men (64% vs 40%)

    Quote Originally Posted by ManthonyChopkins View Post
    The real reason 25s get it faster, and deservedly so, is because it's highly likely that progression based 25 man guilds have 2 to 3 rogues on the roster, that should deserve a shot at legendary daggers
    I never argued about how many rogues need a chance to get a shot at the daggers. From my part they release 3 clusters each boss, if the ratio between 25 and 10 men is that large.

    Quote Originally Posted by ManthonyChopkins View Post
    “What's the point of giving it to 2 rogues at the same time? None, then no one benefits from it for a long time... “
    Well that is exactly the clue of the whole situation …
    So it is okay for a 10-men guild to wait that long before someone benefits, but it is not if it is a 25-men?
    apparently a 25-men guild needs the legendaries more because of their tougher raid (which is btw countered by more flexibility in their raid setup, but that is not the discussion)

    If you expand the thought, how long will a rogue in a 10-men guild benefit from the daggers?
    1 month before MoP hits?
    At that same moment, a 25-men guild will have raided with at least 1 set of daggers for several weeks. And yes, you are right, there are more rogues in a 25-men that need to do the collecting part, but if you average it out over the 2 or 3 rogues a 25-men guild runs with, that is still 50% or 33% for those several weeks.
    How do you mean, 10-men is advantaged?

    Quote Originally Posted by ManthonyChopkins View Post
    So what's the rush? No one else needs it, content is easier, and gear really isn't an issue. Nuff said. You'll get your legendary and you'll think it's awesome. So sit back, relax, and shut the hell up.
    You say it yourself: what is the rush, so why should a 25-men guild get their first dagger set faster?
    The purpose of a legendary is to actually use it, not to just collect it and put it in your bank, just for your information.
    I am quite well aware of the fact that I won’t be able to use the dagger set for long, and to be honest I think that is a pity. I will still collect it, even if it is just to use for a few weeks.

    But yes, I am kinda sick of the arguments thrown around about how much more 10-mens are promoted, because it simply is not true…
    (and it is not the other way around either for that matter, both setups have their pros and cons)
    And why should I shut up? Because we apparently don’t agree?

    Sorry for this wall of text.



    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Yes 10m is more likely to get rng'd on gear, because yeah you won't have everything. You still theoretically have the same amount of time on average to gear up the raid on 10m, its just that you are likely to see more pieces with no gain. Also 25m is getting screwed on tier this time (which granted is only 1/3 tiers) so... There is really not any gear bonus to 25m, you get the same ilvl, same expected time to gear your raid including legendaries. Also as some one mentioned 25m guilds are dropping like flies, I don't see how you can say its being promoted when a large amount of guilds have downsized to 10m.

    Also does the 25m getting that 1 dagger really help as much as you claim? You have 5-6 dps in a 10m raid on most fights as compared to 16-18 dps on 25m so that 1 rogue doing a bit more comparatively means far less. I remember when our mage got the first staff and his dps shot up like 6k or whatever, it honestly didn't make bal's enrage any easier or anything because the total raid dps in a 25m is triple 10m. A 10m mage adding another 6k is proportionally 3x better than what the 25m raid got. Also the fact that dps checks are far, far more lenient on 10m means having that dagger to push the dps a slight bit higher is far less important on 10m. So I completely disagree that the 25m raid gets any extra real benefit over then 10m.

    Also your get it faster in 25 argument is missing the crucial point... its about gearing your raid group, not about gearing individual players. Go join a 25m guild, itll take you just as long to get your daggers because I can pretty much guarantee you that a 25m guild already has 1 rogue collecting so you'd be #2 which since you get exactly double the drops means you would get your daggers at the same time as you would in 10m.



    I assure you it pisses off the 25m hm raiders just as much that normal has the same drop rate.
    I did say that over time the gear up evens out, it is just so that 25 has an advantage at the start.
    And I know there is nothing you can do about that, it’s RNG.

    1 mage adding the 6k does indeed impact the raid more on 10 men than on 25, but the issue is that by the time this 1 mage can do that in 10-men, there are already 3-4 doing it in 25-men before that point. And by the time that mage gets it, the tier is over, so no impact whatsoever on progress, while there really is an impact (whether that is small or not) in 25-men.
    That is why I made a solution with giving 2-3 sets to 25-men raid.

    My statement of 25 being more promoted than 10 is indeed not correct either… but that doesn’t make my statement that it is not the other way around less true, imo.
    I think the reason of 25-ers dropping is more due to the desire to raid with a group of friend, and not with half of the raid filled with people you don’t and won’t ever know. But that is my opinion.
    Last edited by patcherke; 2011-12-16 at 12:26 PM.
    People can be whoever they choose to be on the internet - It is strange that so many people choose to be stupid.

    every time I see someone mentioning the word "rouge" I get the urge to say "yes, we are overpowdered"...

  16. #836
    I don't know why 10man guilds whine it's not like the legendary daggers will mean anything for progress there shit compared to previous legendarys they don't give instant +10k like staff. tbh we will be lucky if they are even 1k above the axe from deathwing for combat for example
    Last edited by Wadoo; 2011-12-16 at 02:32 PM.

  17. #837
    3 weeks down only 105 gems : / dayum you 10 mans!!!!

  18. #838
    Quote Originally Posted by ManthonyChopkins View Post
    LOL bro, only 6? You know as well as I do that's utter BS, but you've made your point I suppose, even though it's full of fallacy. Regardless 25 man guilds have more rogues to gear, more people to gear, and AS SUCH get more gear. 10 mans are on another level, and get drops accordingly. And yes, for the record, even tho I still do enjoy this game and still play it. I long for simpler times before 10 million subs and all that brought with it.
    So, do i need need to point out your own fallacies or can we agree to disagree and acknowledge that there ARE in fact 25man raids which sport 1 rogue and 6 vanquisher? Your guild is above average and other guilds are below, full stop.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    not quite Batman

  19. #839
    From looking at the legendary on wowhead it looks like the fangs have a "glow"/reflecting skin on them does anyone know if theres a way to tell at this point if that will overwrite landslide or if we'll just a have big yellow glow with dirt in it for a legendary?
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=77949#modelviewer

  20. #840
    Right so according to Shadowcraft the axe that drops on normal madness in the main hand produces a higher dps in combat spec than than using the first stage dagger set (and likely even the second stage set). So if asked to spec combat for heroic fights I'd like to use the axe MH and Vengence OH for the higher damage, however, this has left me with a question...If I only have one of the daggers equipped and one in my bag will the gem clusters still drop from bosses? Anyone tried this?

    Thanks
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